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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1920552 times)
Adrian-x
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November 19, 2014, 05:39:33 PM
 #17561


What you should not forget is SPVP is open source and so are the platforms Blockstream will develop.


its a open source path, once taken could lead to the dark side, and with out the right incentive structure in place may be impossible to turn back.

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brg444
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November 19, 2014, 05:45:14 PM
 #17562


What you should not forget is SPVP is open source and so are the platforms Blockstream will develop.


its a open source path, once taken could lead to the dark side, and with out the right incentive structure in place may be impossible to turn back.

I'm of the opinion that different incentive model is better than lost incentives

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
cypherdoc
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November 19, 2014, 05:51:54 PM
 #17563

And what if they step down?

Should they also stop committing code to Bitcoin?

You want to save Bitcoin from a ghost by proposing that 40% of its core developers & 3 top commiters stop working on it.

Yeah, I'm sure that will play out well for the development of Bitcoin's own code.
You've actually hit on a separate, but related issue.

There is a subset of toxic people and petty tyrants among the core developers who believe that what they do defines Bitcoin and wish to be the eternal gatekeepers of what is and is not allowed. They can't actually earn that position by virtue of being superior software engineers, so they keep it by resorting to FUD and other underhanded tactics any time some other developers try to get involved.

There's an extremely long list of people who would have tried to step up and participate, but have been effectively shut out by that cartel.

Bitcoin will be in a much stronger and more secure position once Bitcoin Core is deprecated, or is at least relegated to a minority position on the network. Part of the reason will be that the consensus will be derived from software implementations with a better design and higher code quality, and part of the reason will be because of limiting the effect of toxic developers so that more people will be willing to contribute.

PS: I still haven't forgotten that you never bothered to justify your "less decentralized" claim about colored coins.

who you talking about?

Jeff Garzik, gmaxwell and Lukejr turned this into an issue by moving to strike Jon Matonis and Roger Ver, two established Bitcoin community members who present themselves competently and articulately, based solely on their political ideas. Now, instead of discussing the topic of strategy and purpose for the Press Center, jgarzik wants to silence any debate. I think that determining the press strategy is very important.
No, the problem (in this case) is not their political ideas.

The problem is that they project their political ideas on Bitcoin, with things such as representing Bitcoin as being a tool used to bring about anarchy. Matonis, at least, seems to be encouraging people to break the law almost every time he talks about Bitcoin.
While I did include Roger Ver in my original objection, it was pointed out that he has (at least lately) kept his politics separate in public - so I've limited my objection in this reason to just Matonis.

The general objection against Roger Ver is that he has a criminal history. And not just some debatable crime (eg, drug-related or statutory), but selling explosives. For all I know, maybe he was just selling fireworks - or even wrongly accused and railroaded. However, the media doesn't care about the truth: this is a tool they can simply say "Bitcoin spokesman Roger Ver, who holds a conviction for selling explosives to terrorists, blah blah blah". Maybe they can say it regardless of who we put up as a press contact, but having him listed will serve to re-affirm such detraction when it happens.

He didn't have the brass to post it publicly of course, he's a cowardly weasel through and through

In the interest of being a tough guy like you, here is the rest of our PM discussion which you must have missed in your posting:

Quote
Wait, so you lost the vote, cancelled the vote and are now telling me that you lost it but BY LESS THAN I CLAIMED?
Do you believe that everyone in the world who doesn't agree with you is just one person? I'm getting that impression.

No. I'm saying that you either can't count or you were outright lying.  And I'm letting you know in private because I'm kind enough to not point our your innumeracy-or-dishonesty in public even though you've been rather uncivil towards me.

Quote
The you accuse me from gathering community input (Wow!), which is what y'all said was needed.
Have you no shame?
Gathering input is good— but what you posted wasn't a genuine effort to get opinions it was a heavily biased rabel-rousing rant which has had the effect of causing people to make threats of violence against me. And if I'm uncharitable I might conclude from the fact that you never mentioned it in the main discussion that you intended to keep it hidden so that your incorrect claims would go unchallenged... or perhaps you just didn't think to mention it, it happens... but still stinks.

to which you replied:

GO fuck yourself you little weasel. You have no shame, no integrity and no balls. You can't even handle a public discussion without getting some sycophant to shut it down when you're losing.

FUCK YOU and suck on a cactus.


I honestly believed that if it were actually a vote the position I was recommending would have eventually won out, the vote-stacking you were conducting only goes so far— as I said in the discussion, the only criteria I've seen I've seen suggested that would have kept Bruce Wagner, Nefario, or even Pirate40 off is the one of not including people where there was genuine concern— all hard large basis of public support. That this has been an enormous time and emotion suck, and it had reached the point where aantonop was name calling people who didn't agree with him, along with threats and other embarrassing responses... it probably was best to kill it mercifully.

cypherdoc
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November 19, 2014, 06:00:43 PM
 #17564

More good stuff from Back :

Quote
"There’s a lot of education that needs to occur, there’s a lot of communication, and we look forward to the coming months where we’re going to be publishing more details, more technical details, sample code on GitHub, and allow people to start experimenting with various parts of the technology stack," Hill said.

The CEO said that Blockstream will strive to illustrate how sidechains can be used to empower entrepreneurial development, and that for now, this means educating developers through workshops and co-development.

Hill

Quote
"The entire project was born out of the open-source community, so the idea that we would do anything that isn’t open source or isn’t decentralized or open permission-less innovation is anti-bitcoin"

bu bbbu bbbuttttt Blockstream are the only one that profit from sidechains, right?

where were those 2 guys and you back in 2011 when the real war was being fought from 32 down to 1.98?  my whole argument and vision at the time was that Bitcoin was the ultimate SOV and sound money which had the potential to replace gold.  hence, the birth of this thread in 8/11 just before the peak in gold @1923 and my constant and incessant evangelizing of Bitcoin.  which yes, happens to rival and probably exceed in terms of hours many of the devs who have worked on Bitcoin.  Bitcoin is a community if you hadn't noticed that involves all types, not just devs.  we've all worked towards its success as much as you would like us to think otherwise.

now Blockstream wants to change Bitcoin into a WoW trading platform which will dilute the money function which in my opinion is its strongest potential to change the fiat world.  the genesis block even indirectly references this in Satoshi's statement as he did many times in his posts.

and all it takes is for us to "keep our eye on the ball" as to what brought us to where we are today.
justusranvier
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November 19, 2014, 06:00:54 PM
 #17565

who you talking about?
This thread is a good starting point:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=122013
Adrian-x
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November 19, 2014, 06:02:37 PM
 #17566

The sidechain would need Bitcoin in order to survive. It can't kill the hand that feeds it.

True up to a point.
After which it doesn't.

it depends on what will substitute bitcoin, after such a "point".
if it's a better bitcoin I'm all for it. I guess we won't know
until it will happen.

if you have understood cypers arguments it doesn't have to be a better Bitcoin, and if your understood the adjustment in the incentive dynamic one can make it look better for the user and the miners, however there are tradeoffs, many here will dismiss them as inconsequential, but the biggest one for me is environmental impact on running this decentralize world, and this conversation hasn't even filtered through to that level yet or (mainly the expertise aren't here, and most Liberians like to marginalize it to the outskirts of the free market.  

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justusranvier
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November 19, 2014, 06:06:28 PM
 #17567

What are the other implementations of the protocol besides Bitcoin Core available right now?
btcd is the most complete in that it supports new block generation.

libbitcoin and bitcoinj are probably on the next tier.

Bits of Proof would have made it to this list had it not been successfully executed.
BldSwtTrs
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November 19, 2014, 06:10:05 PM
 #17568

What are the other implementations of the protocol besides Bitcoin Core available right now?
btcd is the most complete in that it supports new block generation.

libbitcoin and bitcoinj are probably on the next tier.

Bits of Proof would have made it to this list had it not been successfully executed.
Thanks, and how can we monitor and foster the adoption of these alternatives?
brg444
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November 19, 2014, 06:16:51 PM
 #17569

where were those 2 guys and you back in 2011 when the real war was being fought from 32 down to 1.98?  my whole argument and vision at the time was that Bitcoin was the ultimate SOV and sound money which had the potential to replace gold.  hence, the birth of this thread in 8/11 just before the peak in gold @1923 and my constant and incessant evangelizing of Bitcoin.  which yes, happens to rival and probably exceed in terms of hours many of the devs who have worked on Bitcoin.  Bitcoin is a community if you hadn't noticed that involves all types, not just devs.  we've all worked towards its success as much as you would like us to think otherwise.

now Blockstream wants to change Bitcoin into a WoW trading platform which will dilute the money function which in my opinion is its strongest potential to change the fiat world.  the genesis block even indirectly references this in Satoshi's statement as he did many times in his posts.

and all it takes is for us to "keep our eye on the ball" as to what brought us to where we are today.

Oh please.  Cheesy

You make it sound as if you are the reason for Bitcoin's success.

I don't see you name in the Bitcoin's whitepaper. I do see Adam Back's though.

At the end of the day, these guys will be responsible for having develop technology that fosters innovations and the creation of companies, industries around Bitcoin while you'll remain cypherdoc, a username with a popular thread on a forum.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 19, 2014, 06:18:39 PM
 #17570

More good stuff from Back :

Quote
"There’s a lot of education that needs to occur, there’s a lot of communication, and we look forward to the coming months where we’re going to be publishing more details, more technical details, sample code on GitHub, and allow people to start experimenting with various parts of the technology stack," Hill said.

The CEO said that Blockstream will strive to illustrate how sidechains can be used to empower entrepreneurial development, and that for now, this means educating developers through workshops and co-development.

Hill

Quote
"The entire project was born out of the open-source community, so the idea that we would do anything that isn’t open source or isn’t decentralized or open permission-less innovation is anti-bitcoin"

bu bbbu bbbuttttt Blockstream are the only one that profit from sidechains, right?

where were those 2 guys and you back in 2011 when the real war was being fought from 32 down to 1.98?  my whole argument and vision at the time was that Bitcoin was the ultimate SOV and sound money which had the potential to replace gold.  hence, the birth of this thread in 8/11 just before the peak in gold @1923 and my constant and incessant evangelizing of Bitcoin.  which yes, happens to rival and probably exceed in terms of hours many of the devs who have worked on Bitcoin.  Bitcoin is a community if you hadn't noticed that involves all types, not just devs.  we've all worked towards its success as much as you would like us to think otherwise.

now Blockstream wants to change Bitcoin into a WoW trading platform which will dilute the money function which in my opinion is its strongest potential to change the fiat world.  the genesis block even indirectly references this in Satoshi's statement as he did many times in his posts.

and all it takes is for us to "keep our eye on the ball" as to what brought us to where we are today.

With ZB we're now up to at least 5 people who have debunked that claim of yours. Maybe you'd like to work on your arguments.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
cypherdoc
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November 19, 2014, 06:20:10 PM
 #17571

Zerg once asserted that i was probably the first venture capitalist to invest in Bitcoin back in 2011.  i believe he is right.

what i saw in Bitcoin was the ultimate SOV sound money system that had the potential to replace gold and silver and consume fiat currencies worldwide.  everybody knows i went out and acted on that belief by selling all my silver startingat its peak of 49 (avg out 44) in May 2011 and then almost all my gold in Aug 2011 (avg out around 1750).  i started buying BTC @ 1.60 the day before Easter Apr 2011 and for the rest of 2011 mostly into the bottom @1.98.  this vision has been more than fulfilled.

now i see an existential threat to the whole concept of Bitcoin as Money with this spvp.  it breaks the linkage btwn the BTC currency unit and its ultrasecure blockchain.  this will dilute the entire money function and potential for Bitcoin as Money.  expect the price of BTC to drop if this is implemented.  you will no longer be able to describe Bitcoin as digital cash or digital gold or even as "apolitcal" money.  that's b/c of Blockstream control and the conversion of Bitcoin to a WoW trading platform.  you will have to say that Bitcoin is a trading platform that now offers stocks, bonds, insurance, contracts, Truthcoin, and oh, btw, currency.  this will cause confusion and dilution.

what a shame.  we had a chance to change the world.
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November 19, 2014, 06:21:37 PM
 #17572

where were those 2 guys and you back in 2011 when the real war was being fought from 32 down to 1.98?  my whole argument and vision at the time was that Bitcoin was the ultimate SOV and sound money which had the potential to replace gold.  hence, the birth of this thread in 8/11 just before the peak in gold @1923 and my constant and incessant evangelizing of Bitcoin.  which yes, happens to rival and probably exceed in terms of hours many of the devs who have worked on Bitcoin.  Bitcoin is a community if you hadn't noticed that involves all types, not just devs.  we've all worked towards its success as much as you would like us to think otherwise.

now Blockstream wants to change Bitcoin into a WoW trading platform which will dilute the money function which in my opinion is its strongest potential to change the fiat world.  the genesis block even indirectly references this in Satoshi's statement as he did many times in his posts.

and all it takes is for us to "keep our eye on the ball" as to what brought us to where we are today.

Oh please.  Cheesy

You make it sound as if you are the reason for Bitcoin's success.

I don't see you name in the Bitcoin's whitepaper. I do see Adam Back's though.

  

you make it sound as if Adam and Austin are crucial for Bitcoins future success. (they aren't)

why would i want to put my name on a paper with a flawed assumption?
justusranvier
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November 19, 2014, 06:23:14 PM
 #17573

Thanks, and how can we monitor and foster the adoption of these alternatives?
Build businesses and products that use them.
cypherdoc
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November 19, 2014, 06:23:33 PM
 #17574

You make it sound as if you are the reason for Bitcoin's success.

hey, the money i pumped in played a part no doubt.

also, the constant evangelizing and trench wars i fought right here in this forum went a long way in convincing others also.

but i'm not a dev though so i'm sure that doesn't count in your book.
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November 19, 2014, 06:24:02 PM
 #17575

where were those 2 guys and you back in 2011 when the real war was being fought from 32 down to 1.98?  my whole argument and vision at the time was that Bitcoin was the ultimate SOV and sound money which had the potential to replace gold.  hence, the birth of this thread in 8/11 just before the peak in gold @1923 and my constant and incessant evangelizing of Bitcoin.  which yes, happens to rival and probably exceed in terms of hours many of the devs who have worked on Bitcoin.  Bitcoin is a community if you hadn't noticed that involves all types, not just devs.  we've all worked towards its success as much as you would like us to think otherwise.

now Blockstream wants to change Bitcoin into a WoW trading platform which will dilute the money function which in my opinion is its strongest potential to change the fiat world.  the genesis block even indirectly references this in Satoshi's statement as he did many times in his posts.

and all it takes is for us to "keep our eye on the ball" as to what brought us to where we are today.

Oh please.  Cheesy

You make it sound as if you are the reason for Bitcoin's success.

I don't see you name in the Bitcoin's whitepaper. I do see Adam Back's though.

  

you make it sound as if Adam and Austin are crucial for Bitcoins future success. (they aren't)

why would i want to put my name on a paper with a flawed assumption?

I would bet they will be largely more relevant to the future of Bitcoin than you are.

I was referring to Bitcoin's white paper, not Sidechains'. You know, the one were Adam Back is credited with developing the proof-of-work system that Bitcoin runs under.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
justusranvier
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November 19, 2014, 06:28:09 PM
 #17576

I was referring to Bitcoin's white paper, not Sidechains'. You know, the one were Adam Back is credited with developing the proof-of-work system that Bitcoin runs under.
Adam Back figured that proof of work could be useful and not where it could most usefully be employed.

He deserves credit for what he accomplished, and that credit in no way absolves him of proving his case in future endeavours.

Adam Back has to show his work, just like anybody else. Even Satoshi would be in that same category.

Past returns are not a guarantee of future results.
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November 19, 2014, 06:31:05 PM
 #17577

You make it sound as if you are the reason for Bitcoin's success.

hey, the money i pumped in played a part no doubt.

also, the constant evangelizing and trench wars i fought right here in this forum went a long way in convincing others also.

but i'm not a dev though so i'm sure that doesn't count in your book.

I can recognize this.

But the fact that you so conveniently dismiss the works of people who have been involved in crypto since before you even knew about Bitcoin says a lot about your character.

These guys have been developing for years some of the very technology that underlies Bitcoin.

I think that deserves some respect

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 19, 2014, 06:35:47 PM
 #17578

I was referring to Bitcoin's white paper, not Sidechains'. You know, the one were Adam Back is credited with developing the proof-of-work system that Bitcoin runs under.
Adam Back figured that proof of work could be useful and but where it could most usefully be employed.

He deserves credit for what he accomplished, and that credit in no way absolves him of proving his case in future endeavours.

Adam Back has to show his work, just like anybody else. Even Satoshi would be in that same category.

Past returns are not a guarantee of future results.

And they absolutely plan to show it.

I simply have some issues seeing people's reputation be ignorantly attacked when they are in part responsible for the existence of Bitcoin or have contributed to the technology and movement that spawned Bitcoin before most of us here even considered it possible or desirable

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 19, 2014, 06:35:52 PM
 #17579

You make it sound as if you are the reason for Bitcoin's success.

hey, the money i pumped in played a part no doubt.

also, the constant evangelizing and trench wars i fought right here in this forum went a long way in convincing others also.

but i'm not a dev though so i'm sure that doesn't count in your book.

I can recognize this.

But the fact that you so conveniently dismiss the works of people who have been involved in crypto since before you even knew about Bitcoin says a lot about your character.

These guys have been developing for years some of the very technology that underlies Bitcoin.

I think that deserves some respect

you're continuing to use selective memory loss.

if you go back, i've acknowledged Adam's contributions many times in this thread.  i'm not sure about Austin's.

the only reason we're talking about these "contributions" is b/c you brought their names into the recent discussion as examples of the only ones we should be listening to in regards to SC's.  you've also given preference to dev opinion as more important to Bitcoins success.  this is wrong as this is a community you know and involves much more than just code.
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November 19, 2014, 06:41:05 PM
 #17580

You make it sound as if you are the reason for Bitcoin's success.

hey, the money i pumped in played a part no doubt.

also, the constant evangelizing and trench wars i fought right here in this forum went a long way in convincing others also.

but i'm not a dev though so i'm sure that doesn't count in your book.

I can recognize this.

But the fact that you so conveniently dismiss the works of people who have been involved in crypto since before you even knew about Bitcoin says a lot about your character.

These guys have been developing for years some of the very technology that underlies Bitcoin.

I think that deserves some respect

you're continuing to use selective memory loss.

if you go back, i've acknowledged Adam's contributions many times in this thread.  i'm not sure about Austin's.

the only reason we're talking about these "contributions" is b/c you brought their names into the recent discussion as examples of the only ones we should be listening to in regards to SC's.  you've also given preference to dev opinion as more important to Bitcoins success.  this is wrong as this is a community you know and involves much more than just code.

this was all in reference to you stupid "devs gon devs" meme.

Austin founded Zero Knowledge Systems in 1997. If you want to debate vision. This guy has loads of it.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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