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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1956160 times)
cbeast
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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


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November 21, 2014, 02:24:59 AM
 #17821

Another possible compromise: make Side Chains an extension of Colored Coins. Instead of moving large blocks of bitcoins into the Side Chain, use the counterparty leverage of Colored Coins as the Side Chain peg. They won't be pegged to bitcoins, but they will add a layer to colored coins.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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cbeast
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November 21, 2014, 02:40:45 AM
 #17822


Come on. You aren't really referencing greaseball bluemeanies blog as a meaningful source of information are you? I would expect better around here.
Blogs are about the only way to avoid trolls nowadays.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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November 21, 2014, 03:42:38 AM
 #17823


Come on. You aren't really referencing greaseball bluemeanies blog as a meaningful source of information are you? I would expect better around here.
Blogs are about the only way to avoid trolls nowadays.

And when the blogger is the troll?
He doesn't eat up a bunch of thread space before he is ignored.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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November 21, 2014, 12:58:09 PM
 #17824

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2my5xz/gavin_andresen_bitcoin_core_development_less/cm8w90y
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November 21, 2014, 01:52:36 PM
 #17825

Instead of Blockstream, imagine if it was Google. Would you feel the same? Remember, the miners aren't going to let anyone just run roughshod over the protocol and scare away their customers. Perhaps if this puny little 21M enterprise shows any initiative to actually innovate anything rather than pump and dump like every other shitcoin, maybe Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple, Oracle, etc. will jump in and do something really useful. IOW, although I agree with you in principle, I think you are overreacting over this group. In fact, it's about time there was a whole lot more new blood researching, testing, and hacking Bitcoin's future.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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November 21, 2014, 02:52:16 PM
 #17826

OR they could reorganize as a non profit.
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November 21, 2014, 03:02:22 PM
 #17827

Adrian may a great point the other day.

Why haven't all those all star investors in Blockstream invested in BTC, the currency unit, as opposed to a for profit company that stands to make $Billions turning Bitcoin as Money into a WoW trading platform game?

You might argue that they have but i seriously doubt it given the price action and the vocalized uneasiness with Bitcoin as Money that we've already heard from a number of CEO  types over time.  Plus, we know Bitcoin as Money would seriously disrupt alot of these guys empires if it gains a foothold in the currency wars.
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November 21, 2014, 03:22:58 PM
 #17828

Adrian may a great point the other day.

Why haven't all those all star investors in Blockstream invested in BTC, the currency unit, as opposed to a for profit company that stands to make $Billions turning Bitcoin as Money into a WoW trading platform game?

You might argue that they have but i seriously doubt it given the price action and the vocalized uneasiness with Bitcoin as Money that we've already heard from a number of CEO  types over time.  Plus, we know Bitcoin as Money would seriously disrupt alot of these guys empires if it gains a foothold in the currency wars.

If you don't think they are doing both you are crazy but they are doing so in small increments 1-5% of their net wealth just in the coin is more than enough, the other investments is about making USD off the transactions and builds up the value of the nest egg bitcoins.

This was a great thread to follow everyday but honestly you have just went of the deep end on SC and everything in the last few weeks, this was one of the last threads I was following here and now have clicked unwatch.

I'm not worried.

I'm sure you'll be back just like all the others who say they're leaving.
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November 21, 2014, 03:49:02 PM
 #17829

The side chain concept is meritorious in that it generates the innovation of a sort of reversible Proof-of-Burn for new coin emission.
Counterparty used Proof of Burn in their launch, and it seemed the right thing to do at the time, and I still like it, and it worked out.

The notion of "pegging" I think is damaging to the Side Chain effort.  Currency pegs always fail. (Argentina, Greece, China, etc)  They are using a discredited term for something novel that just might not ever fail in some implementations.  It is better than a peg and calling it a peg (or even a 2wp) is too faint of a descriptor.  I'd rather they use a newer more distinguishable term (even "crypto-pegging" would be better).

There are all sorts of problems that this can cause, and all sorts of problems that it can solve.  This thread has been one of the best places to sort through those.  The occasional wacky assertions are also useful.  It helps us realize that we are out here on the edge between what people know and what people don't yet know.

I am not at all certain of what the future of these will be, but this thread does provide some vistas of the possibilities.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
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November 21, 2014, 03:56:04 PM
 #17830

The side chain concept is meritorious in that it generates the innovation of a sort of reversible Proof-of-Burn for new coin emission.
Counterparty used Proof of Burn in their launch, and it seemed the right thing to do at the time, and I still like it, and it worked out.

The notion of "pegging" I think is damaging to the Side Chain effort.  Currency pegs always fail. (Argentina, Greece, China, etc)  They are using a discredited term for something novel that just might not ever fail in some implementations.  It is better than a peg and calling it a peg (or even a 2wp) is too faint of a descriptor.  I'd rather they use a newer more distinguishable term (even "crypto-pegging" would be better).

There are all sorts of problems that this can cause, and all sorts of problems that it can solve.  This thread has been one of the best places to sort through those.  The occasional wacky assertions are also useful.  It helps us realize that we are out here on the edge between what people know and what people don't yet know.

I am not at all certain of what the future of these will be, but this thread does provide some vistas of the possibilities.

some ppl think i have an agenda here.  that's simply not true.

for evidence, look at the title of this thread and its lifetime.  the title distills in 4 words my view of Bitcoin and my vision of how it should relate to the World.  i've poured everything i have into it so it should be no surprise where i stand.
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November 21, 2014, 03:56:24 PM
 #17831

OR they could reorganize as a non profit.
A business venture that fails is a non-profit. They have zero chance of changing Bitcoin into a decentralized trading platform for speculative tokens even if regulators allow them a double standard against Bitcoin because competition. If they can do it, then a bigger fish will eat their lunch. One after the other they try and they fail to knock Bitcoin off the hill. Hopefull they will at least allow some devs to learn enough to defect and become Bitcoin core devs. Groupthink isn't for everybody. Blockstream does indeed seem to have some pretty cultish notions.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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November 21, 2014, 04:08:45 PM
 #17832

Blockstream does indeed seem to have some pretty cultish notions.


geezuz krist.  have you ever seen gmax and lukejr behave in certain situations?  they're ridiculous.  techo-commies as JR says.
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November 21, 2014, 05:15:43 PM
 #17833

OR they could reorganize as a non profit.
A business venture that fails is a non-profit. They have zero chance of changing Bitcoin into a decentralized trading platform for speculative tokens even if regulators allow them a double standard against Bitcoin because competition. If they can do it, then a bigger fish will eat their lunch. One after the other they try and they fail to knock Bitcoin off the hill. Hopefull they will at least allow some devs to learn enough to defect and become Bitcoin core devs. Groupthink isn't for everybody. Blockstream does indeed seem to have some pretty cultish notions.


There are some cultists to be sure.  The innovation though, is a positive thing... if it is implemented well and if it can avoid some of the many issues we have surfaced here.  If they are ignored, it could be disastrous.  The cultists and cheerleaders bug me only a little, Bitcoin has no shortage of these.

Sociologically, these cultists also present a risk.  They represent a strategy that is ill-advised in this technology space.  This is why I have recommended here that they moderate their presentation of only the opportunities and not also the risks.

It may be educational to look at some other historical uses of that method of marketing.  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish

Blockstream has't yet been shown to have engaged in any impropriety arising from the conflicted interests.  How the conflict is managed will be telling.  I like the folks involved, and wish them every success with this.  I have confidence that they will find the right way to handle it.

Quote from: Albert Einstein
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
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November 21, 2014, 05:55:39 PM
 #17834

Adrian may a great point the other day.

Why haven't all those all star investors in Blockstream invested in BTC, the currency unit, as opposed to a for profit company that stands to make $Billions turning Bitcoin as Money into a WoW trading platform game?

You might argue that they have but i seriously doubt it given the price action and the vocalized uneasiness with Bitcoin as Money that we've already heard from a number of CEO  types over time.  Plus, we know Bitcoin as Money would seriously disrupt alot of these guys empires if it gains a foothold in the currency wars.
Not to belittle the point but I think WoW trading platform is a little bit of a hyperbole.

The reversible proof of burn is an apt description. The problem is if SC add any value why reverse, and if some other form of SC becomes more valuable than Bitcoin, Bitcoin's utility will be limited to that allocation if it absorbed enough of it. The result would prevent Bitcoin from reaching it's full potential.

All businesses seek to find a win win value proposition so they can extract a voluntary tax, seeking regulatory assistance to give one a competitive advantage is an attempt at preventing competition ultimately the goal of the least create is an attempt at getting a monopoly.

With Bitcoin we have for the first time in history a set of immutable laws that are enforced by violently cooperation.

BlockStream are the first company to come along and propose a change to the laws that govern the system.

They don't have a business plan yet they have been given over $20,000,000 to implement a change to the Bitcoin protocol

They are the first business to want to extract wealth from the system without a win win proposition.

Every amazing idea I've heard is a projection of a win win from the community. There is no free lunch in nature just entropy and efficiency, we are on the precipice of an extinction event with Bitcoin, we only need switch out the masters of money for this to happen. SC however impressive and innovative are a threat to the $1,000,000 Bitcoin.

With SC the first amazing idea to eat up the $5B market cap wins.


Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
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November 21, 2014, 06:04:14 PM
 #17835

Blockstream has't yet been shown to have engaged in any impropriety arising from the conflicted interests.  How the conflict is managed will be telling.  I like the folks involved, and wish them every success with this.  I have confidence that they will find the right way to handle it.
So far the manner in which they are handling it is not encouraging.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2mqlcy/why_are_people_so_afraid_of_sidechains/cm6zg25
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November 21, 2014, 06:11:56 PM
 #17836

Something interesting is happening, for the first time since July 2011 Bitcoin Difficulty is trending negative. (it's a little soon as the feed cost - energy is still well below the market price) 

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
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Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


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November 21, 2014, 06:16:09 PM
 #17837

Blockstream has't yet been shown to have engaged in any impropriety arising from the conflicted interests.  How the conflict is managed will be telling.  I like the folks involved, and wish them every success with this.  I have confidence that they will find the right way to handle it.
So far the manner in which they are handling it is not encouraging.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2mqlcy/why_are_people_so_afraid_of_sidechains/cm6zg25

I take issue with this notion :

Quote
Blockstream now has a $21 million incentive to influence Bitcoin Core in ways that benefit their business model at the expence of other approaches.

How does adding SPVP comes at the expense of other approaches?

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 21, 2014, 06:48:04 PM
 #17838

I've been looking everywhere for this and someone finally found it for me. Thanks!

That was a brutal demonstration of heavy handedness displayed by those guys, gmax and lukejr. Fortunately, they were proven wrong in the end. The bitcoin.org press center  they were promoting got shot down, Ver got added to Andreas' new site,  and Matonis went on to serve 2y as TBF head. Justice got served.

https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/162#issuecomment-17151432
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November 21, 2014, 07:24:50 PM
 #17839

Not sure if this was posted yet:
Wences Casares' "What is Bitcoin" piece on LinkedIn?: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/article/20141120164624-208991-what-is-bitcoin

Good broad perspective as always. Wences and Ted Rogers (both Xapo) put out consistently good bitcoin-as-money pieces. Just gotta help them out in the comments Wink


Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
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November 21, 2014, 07:35:58 PM
 #17840

I've been looking everywhere for this and someone finally found it for me. Thanks!

That was a brutal demonstration of heavy handedness displayed by those guys, gmax and lukejr. Fortunately, they were proven wrong in the end. The bitcoin.org press center  they were promoting got shot down, Ver got added to Andreas' new site,  and Matonis went on to serve 2y as TBF head. Justice got served.

https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/162#issuecomment-17151432

The really sad thing to note here is that those devs never relented to the majority opinion expressed in that GitHub thread. Sirius, the owner of bitcoin.org actually had to be contacted after 2 or so years of being in seclusion to resolve the dispute.

Martti Malmi, aka Sirius. He needs no introduction, but he is somewhat reclusive these days so it's not clear that he'd necessarily appreciate the nomination. Incidentally, he is the owner of the bitcoin.org domain.-Andreas

Sirius was shocked as to how these devs were ruling over his domain and immediately shut down their press center and demurred to Andreas'  new site.

And the other shocker? To this day, gmax sincerely believes he "won" that battle.  
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