Bitcoin Forum
September 25, 2017, 07:12:42 PM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.15.0.1  [Torrent]. (New!)
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Poll
Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

Pages: « 1 ... 836 837 838 839 840 841 842 843 844 845 846 847 848 849 850 851 852 853 854 855 856 857 858 859 860 861 862 863 864 865 866 867 868 869 870 871 872 873 874 875 876 877 878 879 880 881 882 883 884 885 [886] 887 888 889 890 891 892 893 894 895 896 897 898 899 900 901 902 903 904 905 906 907 908 909 910 911 912 913 914 915 916 917 918 919 920 921 922 923 924 925 926 927 928 929 930 931 932 933 934 935 936 ... 1558 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1981458 times)
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
November 20, 2014, 05:04:56 PM
 #17701

I agree with you on this issue cypher but my problem is... If you don't want these side chains to exist, why is it that you are also so against alt coins that enable features that you do not wish Bitcoin to support?

Great read:
https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/11/20/bitcoin-maximalism-currency-platform-network-effects/

How would you like to see such innovation occur?


i'm against them only in the sense that i think they will die competing with Bitcoin so the sooner everyone comes to that understanding the better.  but i understand that they want to compete head to head and speculators will always try to make a buck so who am i to argue with that as long as they are competing fairly and not trying to alter Bitcoin source code to their advantage.

But many of them are not competing directly with bitcoin as sound money, they are providing other distinct features that bitcoin is unwilling to match, that you do not wish it to match, in it's quest to provide said money. How is it that all those useful features will just "die" when bitcoin is not willing or unable to provide equal features?

give me an example.

I really don't want to bring up nxt again but you asked for an example. The Nxt FreeMarket (decentralized marketplace)for example. This cannot be built on top of bitcoin. The closest is OpenBazaar but it is not built on top of bitcoin, it simply uses it. In the coming months users of the FreeMarket will also be able to buy and sell using bitcoin directly anyway. The fact that this platform is built on top of a blockchain offers some important privacy benefits that OpenBazaar will be unable to match. For instance, OpenBazaar will be require you to have a node running at all times for your shop to remain visible to other users, which I believe is a huge privacy flaw. How would such a feature just "die" because of bitcoin? It has nothing to do with money, and everything to do with a new method of secure communication using the blockchain.

lets be clear here.  my arguments in the past have been against altcoins but only in the sense that i think they will die by trying to compete with Bitcoin as a form of money.  the open market stuff, sure, they might survive as long as they provide a valuable service.  i doubt they survive if they depend on an altcoin.  in that sense, i would hope they would try to build their service on top of Bitcoin instead.
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1506366762
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1506366762

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1506366762
Reply with quote  #2

1506366762
Report to moderator
1506366762
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1506366762

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1506366762
Reply with quote  #2

1506366762
Report to moderator
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
November 20, 2014, 05:06:56 PM
 #17702


the integrity of the ledger depends on the currency unit riding on it.  the greed to obtain the unit is what drives the mining incentive.  w/o the unit, the ledger dies.  which is why allowing the units an offramp to an unrelated speculative SC will kill Bitcoin.

ZB doesn't quite agree with you and made a very logical demonstration of why you are likely wrong, maybe you missed it

It seems to me that, assuming the 2wp is perfect and permanent, if everyone moves to the sidechain, the ledger remains perfectly preserved as long as the sidechain continues working. Bitcoin is no longer serving the memory function (Bitcoin the protocol/chain is dead), but the memory function is being served by another chain (and Bitcoin the ledger lives on). The store of value function has been maintained, but not by what we'd usually want to call "Bitcoin."

There are some definitional ambiguities making this difficult to pin down. The word Bitcoin is used to mean:

  • Bitcoin the protocol
    • Bitcoin the protocol maintained by the people now known as the core devs
    • Bitcoin the protocol adopted by the economic majority, or the majority of mining power
  • Bitcoin the blockchain
  • Bitcoin the ecosystem
  • Bitcoin the ledger (who owns what percentage of the ledger)

The most notable thing about this list, I think, is that the first meanings are the most commonly used, but the last meanings are what really matter from an investor's perspective. Especially Bitcoin the ledger. A sidechain takeover threatens the protocol and the blockchain, but not necessarily the ecosystem, and not the ledger insofar as the peg is ensured and the sidechain is as sound as Bitcoin.

Now whether the sidechain will be as sound as Bitcoin is up in the air. I am skeptical for now, but again in a scenario where everyone is moving to the sidechain that condition has presumably been met in a most credible fashion.

To me, spin-offs are a safer and more elegant way to add functionality to Bitcoin the ledger. Perhaps if Bitcoin the ledger was recognized as the real essence of Bitcoin, rather than the protocol used for updating that ledger, spin-offs would be recognized by everyone as the obvious choice. What do you think?

i don't miss anything.  that doesn't mean i understand everything.

sorry, but i don't agree with his assessment.  precisely b/c it leaves out an understanding that the money function will get deprecated in deference to the speculative assets riding on the SC's which distract from the mechanism which has brought us to where we are today.  the BTC price will drop if SC's are implemented, imo.

A depreciation of someone's wealth on the ledger due to speculative assets is the gain of someone else. The ledger stays intact.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
November 20, 2014, 05:11:27 PM
 #17703

Quote

I am going to repeat this ad nauseam until you get it : Blockstream's business model is not dependent on SPVP and its core integration and neither is this proposition conferring them any advantage whatsoever considering its neutral, open source nature.

You are as stubborn as a mule...

talk about a contradiction.  you're like a chameleon:

In that sense, you are right that SPVP is crucial to their success because it is the only way they can create these ambitious extensions of Bitcoin I'm sure they have in mind.

 Cheesy

I should've expect that reply, you are much too shallow to understand intricacies in an argument.

These extensions to Bitcoin I'm referring to that require SPVP are of the open source domain. None will be proprietary to Blockstream or their client. Blockstream's goal is to build these decentralized platform to allow the open source community to create innovative services/chains on top of them.

If in the end SPVP is not integrated, which IMO would be a considerable loss to the ecosystem, then they will model their services around federated sidechains which is likely to be, anyway, the preffered choice of their clients.

hmmm, you sure talk like you're an insider to Blockstream.  is that you Greg?

how would you know that the spvp enabled SC's will be open source?  that's up to whoever contracts with Blockstream to build them.  the rules will be whatever they want.  i've already pointed out how you love to throw the term "open source" around to drive all the juices and get support of the devs reading this thread but the fact of the matter is that Blockstream will be paid good money to construct as many SC's, be they federated or spvp related, for any willing buyer. 

i have $21M that says i'm right.
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
November 20, 2014, 05:14:03 PM
 #17704


the integrity of the ledger depends on the currency unit riding on it.  the greed to obtain the unit is what drives the mining incentive.  w/o the unit, the ledger dies.  which is why allowing the units an offramp to an unrelated speculative SC will kill Bitcoin.

ZB doesn't quite agree with you and made a very logical demonstration of why you are likely wrong, maybe you missed it

It seems to me that, assuming the 2wp is perfect and permanent, if everyone moves to the sidechain, the ledger remains perfectly preserved as long as the sidechain continues working. Bitcoin is no longer serving the memory function (Bitcoin the protocol/chain is dead), but the memory function is being served by another chain (and Bitcoin the ledger lives on). The store of value function has been maintained, but not by what we'd usually want to call "Bitcoin."

There are some definitional ambiguities making this difficult to pin down. The word Bitcoin is used to mean:

  • Bitcoin the protocol
    • Bitcoin the protocol maintained by the people now known as the core devs
    • Bitcoin the protocol adopted by the economic majority, or the majority of mining power
  • Bitcoin the blockchain
  • Bitcoin the ecosystem
  • Bitcoin the ledger (who owns what percentage of the ledger)

The most notable thing about this list, I think, is that the first meanings are the most commonly used, but the last meanings are what really matter from an investor's perspective. Especially Bitcoin the ledger. A sidechain takeover threatens the protocol and the blockchain, but not necessarily the ecosystem, and not the ledger insofar as the peg is ensured and the sidechain is as sound as Bitcoin.

Now whether the sidechain will be as sound as Bitcoin is up in the air. I am skeptical for now, but again in a scenario where everyone is moving to the sidechain that condition has presumably been met in a most credible fashion.

To me, spin-offs are a safer and more elegant way to add functionality to Bitcoin the ledger. Perhaps if Bitcoin the ledger was recognized as the real essence of Bitcoin, rather than the protocol used for updating that ledger, spin-offs would be recognized by everyone as the obvious choice. What do you think?

i don't miss anything.  that doesn't mean i understand everything.

sorry, but i don't agree with his assessment.  precisely b/c it leaves out an understanding that the money function will get deprecated in deference to the speculative assets riding on the SC's which distract from the mechanism which has brought us to where we are today.  the BTC price will drop if SC's are implemented, imo.

A depreciation of someone's wealth on the ledger due to speculative assets is the gain of someone else. The ledger stays intact.

SC's carrying speculative asset will be different and separate ledgers to Bitcoin.  attaching these less secure ledgers to Bitcoin will devalue the entire system.  remember that the Bitcoin miners will probably only be able to MM a couple of the thousands of speculative SC's that will be bolted onto Bitcoin.
_mr_e
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 817



View Profile
November 20, 2014, 05:18:21 PM
 #17705

I agree with you on this issue cypher but my problem is... If you don't want these side chains to exist, why is it that you are also so against alt coins that enable features that you do not wish Bitcoin to support?

Great read:
https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/11/20/bitcoin-maximalism-currency-platform-network-effects/

How would you like to see such innovation occur?


i'm against them only in the sense that i think they will die competing with Bitcoin so the sooner everyone comes to that understanding the better.  but i understand that they want to compete head to head and speculators will always try to make a buck so who am i to argue with that as long as they are competing fairly and not trying to alter Bitcoin source code to their advantage.

But many of them are not competing directly with bitcoin as sound money, they are providing other distinct features that bitcoin is unwilling to match, that you do not wish it to match, in it's quest to provide said money. How is it that all those useful features will just "die" when bitcoin is not willing or unable to provide equal features?

give me an example.

I really don't want to bring up nxt again but you asked for an example. The Nxt FreeMarket (decentralized marketplace)for example. This cannot be built on top of bitcoin. The closest is OpenBazaar but it is not built on top of bitcoin, it simply uses it. In the coming months users of the FreeMarket will also be able to buy and sell using bitcoin directly anyway. The fact that this platform is built on top of a blockchain offers some important privacy benefits that OpenBazaar will be unable to match. For instance, OpenBazaar will be require you to have a node running at all times for your shop to remain visible to other users, which I believe is a huge privacy flaw. How would such a feature just "die" because of bitcoin? It has nothing to do with money, and everything to do with a new method of secure communication using the blockchain.

lets be clear here.  my arguments in the past have been against altcoins but only in the sense that i think they will die by trying to compete with Bitcoin as a form of money.  the open market stuff, sure, they might survive as long as they provide a valuable service.  i doubt they survive if they depend on an altcoin.  in that sense, i would hope they would try to build their service on top of Bitcoin instead.

But this is why I believe your statement, "the blockchain may only be applicable to bitcoin as money" is incorrect. We are already seeing very useful applications of the blockchain outside of money (which aren't possible with bitcoins current parameters, 10min-1hr blocktime being a big one) and I cannot see these slowing down or going away.
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
November 20, 2014, 05:19:55 PM
 #17706

sorry, i will never admit that.  you're talking about something totally separate from the sound money function; reputation which is an emotional response and immaterial to the math.

How is it any different?

Is the "sound money function" not the aspect by which the value assigned to the unit cannot be inflated by a deterministic increase in the supply?

You propose that exchanges or any off-scheme schemes running on a fractional reserve is not a direct threat to Bitcoin's sound money function but only a "reputation" problem?

Is it not true that offchain solutions are inherently more likely to run on a fractional reserve than a sidechain where the scarcity is enforced on the protocol level (mathematically) ?

If you answer no to that question then I cannot debate with you as you are clearly not being honest.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
Zangelbert Bingledack
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1036


View Profile
November 20, 2014, 05:20:29 PM
 #17707

the integrity of the ledger depends on the currency unit riding on it.  the greed to obtain the unit is what drives the mining incentive.  w/o the unit, the ledger dies.  which is why allowing the units an offramp to an unrelated speculative SC will kill Bitcoin.

I am wary of sidechains because of the mining incentive issue. Moving transactions off-chain leaves miners underfunded in the far future, or else results in very high tx fees, leaving Bitcoin more open to competition from a more inflationary coin that pays miners through block rewards more and tx fees less.

However, on that note I have to admit there is little substantive difference between sufficiently high tx fees and slightly breaking the 21M coin limit (no halving, or slower halving), since you can't actually benefit from your Bitcoin wealth unless you spend it eventually, at which time if you incur a big tx fee as a tax it is no different to you than an inflation tax. OK, maybe certain people will gain/lose more from high tx fees vs. inflation. Nevertheless, one way or another the miners have to get paid, and if Bitcoin is severely under-mined due to SC then one of those two things will eventually happen, or else Bitcoin (the platform) will die. But I think Bitcoin the platform will only be allowed to die if everyone is confident that Bitcoin the ledger will live on in an even more secure form as a sidechain, spin-off, or something else. So I'm not so worried about sidechains from that angle, since in such a case the investors lose nothing. And if such confidence can never be gained in the first place, sidechains will never reach such a threat level.

If you are currently a holder of 1% of "the ledger currently being updated by Bitcoin," and at the end of the day your private keys still control 1% of what is now the ledger of civilization, you haven't lost any purchasing power, provided whatever protocol is updating that ledger now is at least as secure as Bitcoin. So I see no danger from perfect sidechains (sidechains where the 2wp is permanent and the sidechain never fails and can somehow live on its own if Bitcoin-the-platform dies) although a very successful one could force Bitcoin to choose between high tx fees and some continuing inflation, but I see a possible threat from imperfect sidechains (2wp is broken and/or mining incentives get messed with) though it seems somewhat self-limiting in that most investors would be tentative about moving their wealth until the peg is proven to be as strong as Bitcoin itself.

In some sense if you're worried about the economic majority just being dumb and moving to a doomed sidechain because of naivety, why not also worry about the economic majority supporting some really bad change to Bitcoin that kills it? The nature of Bitcoin is, in part, that we trust the economic majority to have a certain level of sanity.

In summary, investors shouldn't be wedded to the protocol per se, but of course to the ledger and their percentage stake in it. If there is a better protocol for updating that ledger, and it can be proven to my satisfaction that it is superior (an extremely high bar), then I say bring it on, since it just means the ledger and all investment stakes in it become even more secure (ex hypothesi; again, if there is any doubt of this then I for one won't be excited about it, but I think - for the same reason - most others won't either).
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
November 20, 2014, 05:24:09 PM
 #17708

But this is why I believe your statement, "the blockchain may only be applicable to bitcoin as money" is incorrect. We are already seeing very useful applications of the blockchain outside of money (which aren't possible with bitcoins current parameters) and I cannot see these slowing down or going away.

i don't know.  looks like NXT is fading fast:

Adrian-x
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1372



View Profile
November 20, 2014, 05:25:03 PM
 #17709

When they say "you can't separate" the two, that's absolutely not in reference to sidechains or other similar schemes.

Quote from: Sidechains white paper
In this paper, we argue that it is possible to simultaneously achieve these seemingly contradictory goals. The core observation is that
“Bitcoin” the blockchain is conceptually independent from “bitcoin” the asset

I totally believe that BlockStream's business as it standards will depend on that fact.

There is a risk of destroying Bitcoin as we know it if BlockStream's goal is achieved.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
_mr_e
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 817



View Profile
November 20, 2014, 05:25:35 PM
 #17710

But this is why I believe your statement, "the blockchain may only be applicable to bitcoin as money" is incorrect. We are already seeing very useful applications of the blockchain outside of money (which aren't possible with bitcoins current parameters) and I cannot see these slowing down or going away.

i don't know.  looks like NXT is fading fast:



The bitcoin chart looks exactly the same... There are 100+ devs working in a slack.com project on some absolutely mind blowing tech for the supernet project. Extremely active with 10,000+ messages per day. Anybody who takes a bit of time to look into that would understand something big is in the works and the fruits of that labour will be seen when it is ready. In the meantime, there is absolutely no pumping going on since they will prefer the technology speaks for itself when it is ready. Best part is all of the tech is completely currency agnostic. At the very least read this whitepaper to understand that some breakthrough anonymity tech for currency and communication has been already successfully developed, and it will be usable directly with Bitcoin! https://www.copy.com/s/x4mYj7Cy9tNtwwXg/crossing_the_last_mile_-_telepathy_2014-11-04.pdf. This will have implications on not only currency trading, but accessing and communicating with anonymous html pages, decentralized web applications and many other unforseen consquences. All because of a blockchain and cryptography. Not money related.
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
November 20, 2014, 05:27:54 PM
 #17711


the integrity of the ledger depends on the currency unit riding on it.  the greed to obtain the unit is what drives the mining incentive.  w/o the unit, the ledger dies.  which is why allowing the units an offramp to an unrelated speculative SC will kill Bitcoin.

ZB doesn't quite agree with you and made a very logical demonstration of why you are likely wrong, maybe you missed it

It seems to me that, assuming the 2wp is perfect and permanent, if everyone moves to the sidechain, the ledger remains perfectly preserved as long as the sidechain continues working. Bitcoin is no longer serving the memory function (Bitcoin the protocol/chain is dead), but the memory function is being served by another chain (and Bitcoin the ledger lives on). The store of value function has been maintained, but not by what we'd usually want to call "Bitcoin."

There are some definitional ambiguities making this difficult to pin down. The word Bitcoin is used to mean:

  • Bitcoin the protocol
    • Bitcoin the protocol maintained by the people now known as the core devs
    • Bitcoin the protocol adopted by the economic majority, or the majority of mining power
  • Bitcoin the blockchain
  • Bitcoin the ecosystem
  • Bitcoin the ledger (who owns what percentage of the ledger)

The most notable thing about this list, I think, is that the first meanings are the most commonly used, but the last meanings are what really matter from an investor's perspective. Especially Bitcoin the ledger. A sidechain takeover threatens the protocol and the blockchain, but not necessarily the ecosystem, and not the ledger insofar as the peg is ensured and the sidechain is as sound as Bitcoin.

Now whether the sidechain will be as sound as Bitcoin is up in the air. I am skeptical for now, but again in a scenario where everyone is moving to the sidechain that condition has presumably been met in a most credible fashion.

To me, spin-offs are a safer and more elegant way to add functionality to Bitcoin the ledger. Perhaps if Bitcoin the ledger was recognized as the real essence of Bitcoin, rather than the protocol used for updating that ledger, spin-offs would be recognized by everyone as the obvious choice. What do you think?

i don't miss anything.  that doesn't mean i understand everything.

sorry, but i don't agree with his assessment.  precisely b/c it leaves out an understanding that the money function will get deprecated in deference to the speculative assets riding on the SC's which distract from the mechanism which has brought us to where we are today.  the BTC price will drop if SC's are implemented, imo.

A depreciation of someone's wealth on the ledger due to speculative assets is the gain of someone else. The ledger stays intact.

SC's carrying speculative asset will be different and separate ledgers to Bitcoin.  attaching these less secure ledgers to Bitcoin will devalue the entire system.  remember that the Bitcoin miners will probably only be able to MM a couple of the thousands of speculative SC's that will be bolted onto Bitcoin.

Absolutely wrong once again. Remember that Bitcoin miners will NOT mine speculative SCs as they can only command marginal use in the market and therefore not obtain the necessary adoption for miners to validate them with their work.

Can you even provide an example of these speculative SCs ?

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
November 20, 2014, 05:31:05 PM
 #17712

When they say "you can't separate" the two, that's absolutely not in reference to sidechains or other similar schemes.

Quote from: Sidechains white paper
In this paper, we argue that it is possible to simultaneously achieve these seemingly contradictory goals. The core observation is that
“Bitcoin” the blockchain is conceptually independent from “bitcoin” the asset

I totally believe that BlockStream's business as it standards will depend on that fact.

There is a risk of destroying Bitcoin as we know it if BlockStream's goal is achieved.

So I understand you are also against federated sidechains? Because they also create this exact seperation you are against.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
November 20, 2014, 05:36:02 PM
 #17713


the integrity of the ledger depends on the currency unit riding on it.  the greed to obtain the unit is what drives the mining incentive.  w/o the unit, the ledger dies.  which is why allowing the units an offramp to an unrelated speculative SC will kill Bitcoin.

ZB doesn't quite agree with you and made a very logical demonstration of why you are likely wrong, maybe you missed it

It seems to me that, assuming the 2wp is perfect and permanent, if everyone moves to the sidechain, the ledger remains perfectly preserved as long as the sidechain continues working. Bitcoin is no longer serving the memory function (Bitcoin the protocol/chain is dead), but the memory function is being served by another chain (and Bitcoin the ledger lives on). The store of value function has been maintained, but not by what we'd usually want to call "Bitcoin."

There are some definitional ambiguities making this difficult to pin down. The word Bitcoin is used to mean:

  • Bitcoin the protocol
    • Bitcoin the protocol maintained by the people now known as the core devs
    • Bitcoin the protocol adopted by the economic majority, or the majority of mining power
  • Bitcoin the blockchain
  • Bitcoin the ecosystem
  • Bitcoin the ledger (who owns what percentage of the ledger)

The most notable thing about this list, I think, is that the first meanings are the most commonly used, but the last meanings are what really matter from an investor's perspective. Especially Bitcoin the ledger. A sidechain takeover threatens the protocol and the blockchain, but not necessarily the ecosystem, and not the ledger insofar as the peg is ensured and the sidechain is as sound as Bitcoin.

Now whether the sidechain will be as sound as Bitcoin is up in the air. I am skeptical for now, but again in a scenario where everyone is moving to the sidechain that condition has presumably been met in a most credible fashion.

To me, spin-offs are a safer and more elegant way to add functionality to Bitcoin the ledger. Perhaps if Bitcoin the ledger was recognized as the real essence of Bitcoin, rather than the protocol used for updating that ledger, spin-offs would be recognized by everyone as the obvious choice. What do you think?

i don't miss anything.  that doesn't mean i understand everything.

sorry, but i don't agree with his assessment.  precisely b/c it leaves out an understanding that the money function will get deprecated in deference to the speculative assets riding on the SC's which distract from the mechanism which has brought us to where we are today.  the BTC price will drop if SC's are implemented, imo.

A depreciation of someone's wealth on the ledger due to speculative assets is the gain of someone else. The ledger stays intact.

SC's carrying speculative asset will be different and separate ledgers to Bitcoin.  attaching these less secure ledgers to Bitcoin will devalue the entire system.  remember that the Bitcoin miners will probably only be able to MM a couple of the thousands of speculative SC's that will be bolted onto Bitcoin.

Absolutely wrong once again. Remember that Bitcoin miners will NOT mine speculative SCs as they can only command marginal use in the market and therefore not obtain the necessary adoption for miners to validate them with their work.

Can you even provide an example of these speculative SCs ?

anything not BTC.  like stocks, bonds, insurance, contracts, etc.  you yourself say this is the goal, to decentralize and incorporate into the Bitcoin protocol all manner of these things enabled by spvp.

In that sense, you are right that SPVP is crucial to their success because it is the only way they can create these ambitious extensions of Bitcoin I'm sure they have in mind.


NewLiberty
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1162


Gresham's Lawyer


View Profile WWW
November 20, 2014, 05:37:47 PM
 #17714

Maybe you remember the dusty old term 'peer-2-peer'?

I got my share of abuse for proposing that it should be deprecated as a sales pitch before it became a total joke since that is the way things are heading.


Well, then we have to get pedantic. Bitcoin was *never* peer-to-peer. A miner technically always sits in the middle, even if the hashing/nodes were perfectly uniformly distributed.


With such a definition can anything be peer to peer? There would always require some media for communication between the peers.
Some computer among the millions transmits the packet, some router...
If it doesn't require such an extreme definition, then it is more peer to peer than pretty much anything else.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
justusranvier
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1400



View Profile WWW
November 20, 2014, 05:39:00 PM
 #17715

The bitcoin chart looks exactly the same...
Re-check the axis on that graph.
Peter R
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1050



View Profile
November 20, 2014, 05:39:13 PM
 #17716

Is colored coins not introducing an additional layer of trust?
That depends on how you define "another layer of trust".

Colored coins are inherently used for tracking things outside the blockchain - that by definition means representing obligations a.k.a counterparty risk. Any technique that tracks obligations outside the blockchain will be tracking counterparty risk.

But none of that has nothing to do with the underlying technology used to create the token. Colored coins as tokens are no different from other bitcoins. A colored coin token doesn't all of a sudden become less trustworthy than a non-colored Bitcoin.

I define "another layer of trust" as trusting anything else but the Bitcoin network.

In that regard colored coins are less decentralized than sidechains.

There's nothing "centralized" about the colored-coin protocol, and any additional "layer of trust" that exists for the colored-coin asset would exist for the same asset stored on a sidechain.  For example, if the asset represents 1 oz of gold stored in my personal vault, then you're trusting me regardless of whether I issue the gold receipt as a colored coin or as a sidechain token.

One supposed "weakness" of colored coins (I use the quotes because I personally see it as a strength), is that the bitcoin protocol doesn't verify the "amount" of colored coins transferred.  I can inspect any bitcoin output, look at its "value" field," and, provided that that TX has been mined into a block, I know that the output really contains the stated number of bitcoins.  With colored coins, this property does not exist; instead I must follow the chain of colored transactions back to the original issuance of the colored asset to determine if the (e.g.) 1,000,000 stock certificates I'm about to buy is actually valid.  This means that SPV nodes cannot verify transactions and that the whole transaction chain cannot be pruned.  
  

Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
Peter R
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1050



View Profile
November 20, 2014, 05:39:28 PM
 #17717

(continued) So now we get into the "soft-fork-to-add-features" debate.  JL2012 (also a very smart guy) proposed the addition of a new opcode OP_CHECKCOLORVERIFY to fix what many see as a weakness with the colored coin concept.  Many others have advocated forks to add Turing completeness, faster blocktimes, etc., etc.  These forks will likely never occur.  

With OP_SIDECHAINPROOFVERIFY, it's a single soft fork that would allow sidechains to support whatever protocol they want (JL2012 could get his OP_CHECKCOLORVERIFY and the people who wanted Turing completeness could get that too).  So I dunno.  On the one hand, I sort of like the idea that a single soft fork could open up all this innovation, and gmaxwell spoke to this when he said (paraphrasing) "I don't want to say 'you can't do that' [in regards to crazy ideas], I want to say 'good luck with that.'"  

But on the other hand, bitcoin "as is" is almost too far ahead of its time--there's still a huge learning curve until the world fully understands what we've already accomplished.  By simply addressing scalability, we'd have a new monetary system that could support orders of magnitude growth in adoption and market cap and solve the sound-money problem that plagues the global economy.  So I question whether there's any real need for these new "features" beyond the "devs-gotta-dev" demand.  

Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
Peter R
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1050



View Profile
November 20, 2014, 05:39:44 PM
 #17718

(continued) Furthermore, except for in this thread, there seems to be very little concern for the new dynamics that this change could entail.  I highly respect Greg Maxwell (gmaxwell) and Andrew Poelstra (andytoshi), and I want to mention that they're pretty quick to point out the need for rigour in any proposed crypto-system.  Andytoshi wrote what's become a highly-cited paper on the dangers of altcoins designed by "amateurs."  New designs should be peer-reviewed by experts in the field, tested, etc., etc., etc.

But SPVP sidechains are not just a new cryptosystem.  They represent a change to the economics, game theory, politics, and probably even legal aspects of bitcoin.  For the same reason that amateur cryptographers may be blind to the weaknesses of their proposed cryptosystems, professional cryptographers may be blind to the change in incentives that their new cryptosystem entails.  SPVP sidechains should not be viewed as simply a technical problem; it's a multidisciplinary problem and we need to explore the concerns raised through many different lenses. 

In the meantime, there's already the potential for enormous growth ahead of us with bitcoin as it is.

Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
Zangelbert Bingledack
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1036


View Profile
November 20, 2014, 05:41:23 PM
 #17719

sorry, but i don't agree with his assessment.  precisely b/c it leaves out an understanding that the money function will get deprecated in deference to the speculative assets riding on the SC's which distract from the mechanism which has brought us to where we are today.  the BTC price will drop if SC's are implemented, imo.

If by mechanism you mean mining I can see the possibility of harm and I've generally been on board with the trepidation on that front. But simply having stocks or whatever denominated in Bitcoin ledger units (whether actual bitcoins or perfect you-can-never-lose-the-2wp sidechain coins) seems fine since that's part of what money/ledger is supposed to do. I don't know that it's necessary for people to understand sound money in order to benefit from it, as long as it does take over. Anyway, if the pile on the right in the pic you've been posting (money, store of value, Forex) is way bigger than speculative assets, how can such distraction really happen?
_mr_e
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 817



View Profile
November 20, 2014, 05:43:23 PM
 #17720

The bitcoin chart looks exactly the same...
Re-check the axis on that graph.

Everything is in a bear market... surprise surprise. Anyway this is not about the price of nxt. This is about there being other uses for a blockchain outside of money. New methods of secure communications, potentially tor replacing, is a big one. Decentralized web apps using a blockchain as their database is another.
Pages: « 1 ... 836 837 838 839 840 841 842 843 844 845 846 847 848 849 850 851 852 853 854 855 856 857 858 859 860 861 862 863 864 865 866 867 868 869 870 871 872 873 874 875 876 877 878 879 880 881 882 883 884 885 [886] 887 888 889 890 891 892 893 894 895 896 897 898 899 900 901 902 903 904 905 906 907 908 909 910 911 912 913 914 915 916 917 918 919 920 921 922 923 924 925 926 927 928 929 930 931 932 933 934 935 936 ... 1558 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!