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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2010276 times)
cypherdoc
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November 20, 2014, 07:52:15 PM
 #17761

yes, offchain tx's take away from mining fees.  but SC's will open up a whole new avenue of risk by not only competing at the mining level for tx fees but also competing for BTC units and competing for new investment fiat that now suddenly has a whole menu of assets from which to choose from when contemplating investing into the "Bitcoin trading platform".

I don't know what you mean by "competing for BTC units" since the chains don't really "get" the BTC units, more like just babysit them (unless the SC breaks).

i view the 2wp as a "pass thru" from which scBTC arise on the other side.  these can then ride the SC themselves or be converted to InflataCoin or whatever.  in that sense, scBTC cannot be harvested for tx fees on MC.
Quote

As far as competing for investment fiat, aside from just the tx fees which are negligible right now, this seems to also apply to Counterparty. A stock, for example, by nature involves investing in a company rather than in bitcoins (or dollars). Someone could buy ASICMiner shares for fiat or buy paper DOW stock certificates for yuan, but I don't know if that's a bad thing for Bitcoin or the dollar, respectively. Sure the money doesn't go into the ledger, but eventually just having a stock market running on the ledger, at bottom, should bring a lot of value to that ledger.

maybe.

i just don't see it.  the other 6 billion just want stable money with SOV.  i know i do.  the deflationary nature of BTC itself means once fiat starts moving into Bitcoin it should send us to the moon.  that is the asymmetric bet most ppl are focused on when they say that.  it is a money thing.  i simply find all these other things incredibly distracting and risky.  and SC's violate "my" definition of the inextricable link.  
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brg444
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November 20, 2014, 07:52:41 PM
 #17762

Like Adrian-s and cypherdoc, I do not think we NEED side chains for Bitcoin to succeed, so I like a cautious approach.  It is more important to do it right, than it is to do it.

I don't either, and my investment in BTC is not dependent on whether or not they will succeed as, as much as I disagree with cypherdoc, I do recognize the enormous potential if it can only achieve the status of a universal store-of-value and replace gold.

In some way this changes everything but I also see a potential for this immutable ledger to achieve much more.



"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
Adrian-x
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November 20, 2014, 07:53:52 PM
 #17763

Imagine NXT as a SC, all big holders of Bitcoin could put there BTC there and earn interest. The fees could be cheaper than Bitcoin.

I am not a fan of PoS but I hold NXT for other reasons.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
brg444
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November 20, 2014, 08:02:34 PM
 #17764

yes, offchain tx's take away from mining fees.  but SC's will open up a whole new avenue of risk by not only competing at the mining level for tx fees but also competing for BTC units and competing for new investment fiat that now suddenly has a whole menu of assets from which to choose from when contemplating investing into the "Bitcoin trading platform".

I don't know what you mean by "competing for BTC units" since the chains don't really "get" the BTC units, more like just babysit them (unless the SC breaks).

i view the 2wp as a "pass thru" from which scBTC arise on the other side.  these can then ride the SC themselves or be converted to InflataCoin or whatever.  in that sense, scBTC cannot be harvested for tx fees on MC.
Quote

As far as competing for investment fiat, aside from just the tx fees which are negligible right now, this seems to also apply to Counterparty. A stock, for example, by nature involves investing in a company rather than in bitcoins (or dollars). Someone could buy ASICMiner shares for fiat or buy paper DOW stock certificates for yuan, but I don't know if that's a bad thing for Bitcoin or the dollar, respectively. Sure the money doesn't go into the ledger, but eventually just having a stock market running on the ledger, at bottom, should bring a lot of value to that ledger.

maybe.

i just don't see it.  the other 6 billion just want stable money with SOV.  i know i do.  the deflationary nature of BTC itself means once fiat starts moving into Bitcoin it should send us to the moon.  that is the asymmetric bet most ppl are focused on when they say that.  it is a money thing.  i simply find all these other things incredibly distracting and risky.  and SC's violate "my" definition of the inextricable link.

These "pass thru" are a figment of your imagination. They are not unique to the 2wp and certainly not to a SPVP sidechain. They exist already in multiple form with the same consequence of risks to the ledger.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 20, 2014, 08:05:38 PM
 #17765

Imagine NXT as a SC, all big holders of Bitcoin could put there BTC there and earn interest. The fees could be cheaper than Bitcoin.

I am not a fan of PoS but I hold NXT for other reasons.

You're a brave Legendary member, not many would admit to hold NXT. I noticed this is a no-no among early Bitcoin adopters. Kudos to you! Wink
brg444
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November 20, 2014, 08:05:42 PM
 #17766

yes, offchain tx's take away from mining fees.  but SC's will open up a whole new avenue of risk by not only competing at the mining level for tx fees but also competing for BTC units and competing for new investment fiat that now suddenly has a whole menu of assets from which to choose from when contemplating investing into the "Bitcoin trading platform".

I don't know what you mean by "competing for BTC units" since the chains don't really "get" the BTC units, more like just babysit them (unless the SC breaks).

i view the 2wp as a "pass thru" from which scBTC arise on the other side.  these can then ride the SC themselves or be converted to InflataCoin or whatever.  in that sense, scBTC cannot be harvested for tx fees on MC.
Quote

As far as competing for investment fiat, aside from just the tx fees which are negligible right now, this seems to also apply to Counterparty. A stock, for example, by nature involves investing in a company rather than in bitcoins (or dollars). Someone could buy ASICMiner shares for fiat or buy paper DOW stock certificates for yuan, but I don't know if that's a bad thing for Bitcoin or the dollar, respectively. Sure the money doesn't go into the ledger, but eventually just having a stock market running on the ledger, at bottom, should bring a lot of value to that ledger.

maybe.

i just don't see it.  the other 6 billion just want stable money with SOV.  i know i do.  the deflationary nature of BTC itself means once fiat starts moving into Bitcoin it should send us to the moon.  that is the asymmetric bet most ppl are focused on when they say that.  it is a money thing.  i simply find all these other things incredibly distracting and risky.  and SC's violate "my" definition of the inextricable link.  

It seems you are only interested in profit gains and how rich Bitcoin is going to make you.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
cypherdoc
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November 20, 2014, 08:09:15 PM
 #17767

yes, offchain tx's take away from mining fees.  but SC's will open up a whole new avenue of risk by not only competing at the mining level for tx fees but also competing for BTC units and competing for new investment fiat that now suddenly has a whole menu of assets from which to choose from when contemplating investing into the "Bitcoin trading platform".

I don't know what you mean by "competing for BTC units" since the chains don't really "get" the BTC units, more like just babysit them (unless the SC breaks).

i view the 2wp as a "pass thru" from which scBTC arise on the other side.  these can then ride the SC themselves or be converted to InflataCoin or whatever.  in that sense, scBTC cannot be harvested for tx fees on MC.
Quote

As far as competing for investment fiat, aside from just the tx fees which are negligible right now, this seems to also apply to Counterparty. A stock, for example, by nature involves investing in a company rather than in bitcoins (or dollars). Someone could buy ASICMiner shares for fiat or buy paper DOW stock certificates for yuan, but I don't know if that's a bad thing for Bitcoin or the dollar, respectively. Sure the money doesn't go into the ledger, but eventually just having a stock market running on the ledger, at bottom, should bring a lot of value to that ledger.

maybe.

i just don't see it.  the other 6 billion just want stable money with SOV.  i know i do.  the deflationary nature of BTC itself means once fiat starts moving into Bitcoin it should send us to the moon.  that is the asymmetric bet most ppl are focused on when they say that.  it is a money thing.  i simply find all these other things incredibly distracting and risky.  and SC's violate "my" definition of the inextricable link.  

It seems you are only interested in profit gains and how rich Bitcoin is going to make you.

i don't think you have been reading carefully enough.
Adrian-x
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November 20, 2014, 08:45:58 PM
 #17768

Imagine NXT as a SC, all big holders of Bitcoin could put there BTC there and earn interest. The fees could be cheaper than Bitcoin.
I am not a fan of PoS but I hold NXT for other reasons.

Why?  This is where a centralized coin (Phillipines) as a SC would put with BTC as the basis of the coin.  POS system for a centralized coin makes absolute sense, and we could lower the transaction costs for usage assuming our Miners Rate gets high in their currency, also prevents bloat.

FUCK NXT
And this is good for Bitcoin how?
It will eat Bitcoin like Fiat ate Gold, a PoS SC is a terrible idea, it will reward wealth not productivity.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
Adrian-x
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November 20, 2014, 08:58:21 PM
 #17769

Imagine NXT as a SC, all big holders of Bitcoin could put there BTC there and earn interest. The fees could be cheaper than Bitcoin.

I am not a fan of PoS but I hold NXT for other reasons.

You're a brave Legendary member, not many would admit to hold NXT. I noticed this is a no-no among early Bitcoin adopters. Kudos to you! Wink
Not sure who put "Legendary" on my name  Cheesy
I'm just supporting the crypto economy not NXT specifically. The NXT idea is similar to our current Fiat system, if Bitcoin succeeds we all succeed.

My support is to take a whack a mole approach to Alts. Bitcoin is the pilot people in the alt space work for Bitcoin, the stupid ones sell it.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
brg444
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November 20, 2014, 09:04:33 PM
 #17770

Not sure who put "Legendary" on my name  Cheesy
I'm just supporting the crypto economy not NXT specifically. The NXT idea is similar to out current Fiat system, if Bitcoin succeeds we all succeed.

My support is to take a whack a mole approach to Alts. Bitcoin is the pilot people in the alt space work for Bitcoin, the stupid ones sell it.


I had to sell some, Gavin talking about a fork not an evolution, and this this is devastating IMO.

I've been buying every dip untill the release of this paper my support has switched I'm now a net seller and will be untill there is more clarity.

 Huh

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
Adrian-x
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November 20, 2014, 09:18:07 PM
 #17771


And this is good for Bitcoin how?
It will eat Bitcoin like Fiat ate Gold, a PoS SC is a terrible idea, it will reward wealth not productivity.

I agree it will reward wealth not productivity but what happens when/if the greedy miners make transaction fees cost to much in a native land?  You cut off third world countries possibly taking advantage of using Bitcoin - a POS SC coin would keep funds at a constant rate for transacting - this is really not that much different than what a Coinbase/Circle Company will be doing when we get a centralized wallet system that will charge users a small percentage to use and keep transactions of the blockchain.

Much like Coinbase Tips and ChangeTip is doing right now with the tipping features.  Internal transfers.

I'm a greedy miner too.  Miners have it easy for the next 6 years, there after if they charge high fees they devalue the network if the value of the network drops the status quo change if they don't adapt it degrades it will keep changing until the status quo brings new actors.

It's actually greed that will prevent degeneration, miners who scoop up the transaction fees that are equal to the marginal cost will out compete there competitors. At every halving there will be a disruption and miners will start a new competitive race to discover the marginal cost of business.

SC running on the Bitcoin protocol using SPV proofs change this incentive, this is why I'm skeptical.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
Odalv
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November 20, 2014, 09:19:44 PM
 #17772

a single Blockchain is a single point of failure.

The problem from an investment perspective is that this requires active asset management, and if I choose the wrong chain to allocate some of my wealth to I lose when it fails (assuming the 2wp is also lost). I like spin-offs because if you have a 1% stake in the ledger now, you have a 1% stake in all the spin-offs as well (assuming spin-offs have the same inflation schedule as Bitcoin) by default, without having to do anything. No matter what chains win, your stake in the ledger is always and automatically preserved. With sidechains, you have to be a masterful investor to ensure net zero change to your stake in the total operational ledger.

spin-offs is inflationary (you have N x amount)  but SC is not inflationary b/c you CAN use BTC only in 1 chain at the same time.
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November 20, 2014, 09:22:22 PM
 #17773

Not sure who put "Legendary" on my name  Cheesy
I'm just supporting the crypto economy not NXT specifically. The NXT idea is similar to out current Fiat system, if Bitcoin succeeds we all succeed.

My support is to take a whack a mole approach to Alts. Bitcoin is the pilot people in the alt space work for Bitcoin, the stupid ones sell it.


I had to sell some, Gavin talking about a fork not an evolution, and this this is devastating IMO.

I've been buying every dip untill the release of this paper my support has switched I'm now a net seller and will be untill there is more clarity.

 Huh

What's confusing? Just look at the market price it was stupid to sell. Hindsight is 20:20,
I'm more referring to the Altcoin proponents that drink there own koolaid. And cash out there Bitcoin.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
brg444
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November 20, 2014, 09:34:34 PM
 #17774

Not sure who put "Legendary" on my name  Cheesy
I'm just supporting the crypto economy not NXT specifically. The NXT idea is similar to out current Fiat system, if Bitcoin succeeds we all succeed.

My support is to take a whack a mole approach to Alts. Bitcoin is the pilot people in the alt space work for Bitcoin, the stupid ones sell it.


I had to sell some, Gavin talking about a fork not an evolution, and this this is devastating IMO.

I've been buying every dip untill the release of this paper my support has switched I'm now a net seller and will be untill there is more clarity.

 Huh

What's confusing? Just look at the market price it was stupid to sell. Hindsight is 20:20,
I'm more referring to the Altcoin proponents that drink there own koolaid. And cash out there Bitcoin.

Sure  Wink I think maybe you got just a little  drunk on your own "sidechains doomsday" koolaid

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 20, 2014, 09:54:54 PM
 #17775


I'm a greedy miner too.  Miners have it easy for the next 6 years, there after if they charge high fees they devalue the network if the value of the network drops the status quo change if they don't adapt it degrades it will keep changing until the status quo brings new actors.

It's actually greed that will prevent degeneration, miners who scoop up the transaction fees that are equal to the marginal cost will out compete there competitors. At every halving there will be a disruption and miners will start a new competitive race to discover the marginal cost of business.

SC running on the Bitcoin protocol using SPV proofs change this incentive, this is why I'm skeptical.

I don't have the answers but again this is one concern of mine, I would be able to afford the transaction fees and utilize the network but of course their will be times that a internal wallet service like Coinbase will be used just for convenience.

I am worried about someone like this being able to use BTC in the future without a service like this - http://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/kim-kardashian-paper-cover.jpg?w=814 - which is already changing the landscape.

immigrating to this new world will be hard, there are hostile tribes and wild animals with skeletons that look like dragons. 
weather we get there on the Bitcoin boat is still not guaranteed.

but we plug along concerns and all. I dont know but I've bought a ticket.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
Odalv
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November 20, 2014, 09:56:10 PM
 #17776

yes, offchain tx's take away from mining fees.  but SC's will open up a whole new avenue of risk by not only competing at the mining level for tx fees but also competing for BTC units and competing for new investment fiat that now suddenly has a whole menu of assets from which to choose from when contemplating investing into the "Bitcoin trading platform".

I don't know what you mean by "competing for BTC units" since the chains don't really "get" the BTC units, more like just babysit them (unless the SC breaks).

i view the 2wp as a "pass thru" from which scBTC arise on the other side.  these can then ride the SC themselves or be converted to InflataCoin or whatever.  in that sense, scBTC cannot be harvested for tx fees on MC.
Quote

As far as competing for investment fiat, aside from just the tx fees which are negligible right now, this seems to also apply to Counterparty. A stock, for example, by nature involves investing in a company rather than in bitcoins (or dollars). Someone could buy ASICMiner shares for fiat or buy paper DOW stock certificates for yuan, but I don't know if that's a bad thing for Bitcoin or the dollar, respectively. Sure the money doesn't go into the ledger, but eventually just having a stock market running on the ledger, at bottom, should bring a lot of value to that ledger.

maybe.

i just don't see it.  the other 6 billion just want stable money with SOV.  i know i do.  the deflationary nature of BTC itself means once fiat starts moving into Bitcoin it should send us to the moon.  that is the asymmetric bet most ppl are focused on when they say that.  it is a money thing.  i simply find all these other things incredibly distracting and risky.  and SC's violate "my" definition of the inextricable link.  

It seems you are only interested in profit gains and how rich Bitcoin is going to make you.

Yes, he wrote spin-offs is better than SC. Bribe him and suddenly inflation is not problem. :-) (give him LTC, NXT and he will be alt-coin fan)

Edit:
It is obvious, that SC will end up his pump and dump alt-business. He will do everything to keep gaining profit. "In the name of Bitcoin"
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November 20, 2014, 10:12:01 PM
 #17777

Sure  Wink I think maybe you got just a little  drunk on your own "sidechains doomsday" koolaid
Sure  Wink I may have overacted, in selling, but by page 5, I was convinced it could do what it said on the box.
in retrospect, it has to be implemented first before it can do what it said on the box.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
cypherdoc
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November 20, 2014, 10:12:40 PM
 #17778

yes, offchain tx's take away from mining fees.  but SC's will open up a whole new avenue of risk by not only competing at the mining level for tx fees but also competing for BTC units and competing for new investment fiat that now suddenly has a whole menu of assets from which to choose from when contemplating investing into the "Bitcoin trading platform".

I don't know what you mean by "competing for BTC units" since the chains don't really "get" the BTC units, more like just babysit them (unless the SC breaks).

i view the 2wp as a "pass thru" from which scBTC arise on the other side.  these can then ride the SC themselves or be converted to InflataCoin or whatever.  in that sense, scBTC cannot be harvested for tx fees on MC.
Quote

As far as competing for investment fiat, aside from just the tx fees which are negligible right now, this seems to also apply to Counterparty. A stock, for example, by nature involves investing in a company rather than in bitcoins (or dollars). Someone could buy ASICMiner shares for fiat or buy paper DOW stock certificates for yuan, but I don't know if that's a bad thing for Bitcoin or the dollar, respectively. Sure the money doesn't go into the ledger, but eventually just having a stock market running on the ledger, at bottom, should bring a lot of value to that ledger.

maybe.

i just don't see it.  the other 6 billion just want stable money with SOV.  i know i do.  the deflationary nature of BTC itself means once fiat starts moving into Bitcoin it should send us to the moon.  that is the asymmetric bet most ppl are focused on when they say that.  it is a money thing.  i simply find all these other things incredibly distracting and risky.  and SC's violate "my" definition of the inextricable link.  

It seems you are only interested in profit gains and how rich Bitcoin is going to make you.

Yes, he wrote spin-offs is better than SC. Bribe him and suddenly inflation is not problem. :-) (give him LTC, NXT and he will be alt-coin fan)

i did?  where?

and who's looking to capitalize on SC's?  oh, you!:


Cmon man, do your job.

 In JR's scenario, Blockstream would make Billions!

I have no problem. I'll make too !!!!!!!
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November 20, 2014, 10:18:56 PM
 #17779

yes, offchain tx's take away from mining fees.  but SC's will open up a whole new avenue of risk by not only competing at the mining level for tx fees but also competing for BTC units and competing for new investment fiat that now suddenly has a whole menu of assets from which to choose from when contemplating investing into the "Bitcoin trading platform".

I don't know what you mean by "competing for BTC units" since the chains don't really "get" the BTC units, more like just babysit them (unless the SC breaks).

i view the 2wp as a "pass thru" from which scBTC arise on the other side.  these can then ride the SC themselves or be converted to InflataCoin or whatever.  in that sense, scBTC cannot be harvested for tx fees on MC.
Quote

As far as competing for investment fiat, aside from just the tx fees which are negligible right now, this seems to also apply to Counterparty. A stock, for example, by nature involves investing in a company rather than in bitcoins (or dollars). Someone could buy ASICMiner shares for fiat or buy paper DOW stock certificates for yuan, but I don't know if that's a bad thing for Bitcoin or the dollar, respectively. Sure the money doesn't go into the ledger, but eventually just having a stock market running on the ledger, at bottom, should bring a lot of value to that ledger.

maybe.

i just don't see it.  the other 6 billion just want stable money with SOV.  i know i do.  the deflationary nature of BTC itself means once fiat starts moving into Bitcoin it should send us to the moon.  that is the asymmetric bet most ppl are focused on when they say that.  it is a money thing.  i simply find all these other things incredibly distracting and risky.  and SC's violate "my" definition of the inextricable link.  

It seems you are only interested in profit gains and how rich Bitcoin is going to make you.

Yes, he wrote spin-offs is better than SC. Bribe him and suddenly inflation is not problem. :-) (give him LTC, NXT and he will be alt-coin fan)

i did?  where?



it's funny b/c in my mind i see Peter's proposal as better than Sidechains for now.  but i should reserve judgment until there's more info.  if endentyrell is to be believed, however, there is much complexity involved in setting up Sidechains that could put Bitcoin in jeopardy.  Adam has admitted that there is risk in being caught in a Sidechain during an attack.  this automatically makes those BTC less valuable on the open market than those on the mainchain. 

Spin-offs would be much safer, simpler, and cheaper if it works as a way to deal with altcoins/altschemes.
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November 20, 2014, 10:24:34 PM
 #17780

Looks like Juan Llanos of BitReserve is losing sight of things: https://bitreserve.org/en/blog/posts/about-bitreserve/with-your-right-hand-on-your-heart-a-recap-of-money20-20-2014 Shame...

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
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