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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2008782 times)
cypherdoc
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November 18, 2014, 03:49:35 AM
 #17361

here's a clever reply on how Blockstream can make money devving SC's by asherp on Reddit:

[–]asherp 2 points 7 hours ago

My guess: it takes time to convert btc onto a given sidechain, and the weaker the chain the longer it takes to convert. The devs could have already started several sidechains that expand bitcoin's features, moving their own btc onto them. When they announce their new sidechain, they can offer to trade for coins on the main chain for slightly above the 1-1 peg. Those who want to use the sidechain can either a) convert their own coins which could take weeks or 2) buy premined sidechain coins for a small fee.
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brg444
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November 18, 2014, 04:19:31 AM
 #17362

Cheesy

my friend. the cost is not time or convenience but trust.

if you want to maintain Bitcoin as Money only the trust for the ledger matters.

to preserve the trust, you have to, as you say,discourage any inflation and devaluation of its value.

by conceding the handling of transactions and proof verification to anyone but the network you forfeit trust.

by conceding the trust to a significant portion of the economy to off-chain schemes and federation of servers/oracles/voting pools you necessarily create more risk and enable possibilities of fractional reserve schemes.


nothing that happens on gox-like ledgers matters to Bitcoin and its future success.  

lol

well I think *this* is where we disagree

I don't believe that people who lost coins on Gox are glad they "remain in circulation somewhere in someones hands."

Probably because that someone's hand is likely the same one who took it from theirs..

any scBTC that get lost in an attack or SC failure get lost forever.  

Well you see to me this is not necessarily a bad proposition. it encourages prudence and financial awareness. It instills respect first and foremost for the store of value.

but the real problem is the offramp; the spvp which breaks the sound money function and ruins everything for everyone.

the off ramp exists in many form and is not unique to spvp proof verification.




"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
brg444
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November 18, 2014, 04:21:13 AM
 #17363

as i see it, SC's are a temptation to make fast money thru inflation thru the indirect method of breaking Bitcoin's Sound Money function using federated servers which allows transformation of BTC to all manner of speculative assets (anything not BTC).  except that Blockstream will be in the best position to make USD's from that.  the rest of us will have to scramble to figure out which chain contains the most value.

the bigger reward, but longer battle, will be achieved by maintaining a self contained Bitcoin financial system that inextricably links the currency unit to its blockchain.  this will be much easier for us, all we have to do is hodl.

FTFY

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 18, 2014, 04:25:04 AM
 #17364

here's a clever reply on how Blockstream can make money devving SC's by asherp on Reddit:

[–]asherp 2 points 7 hours ago

My guess: it takes time to convert btc onto a given sidechain, and the weaker the chain the longer it takes to convert. The devs could have already started several sidechains that expand bitcoin's features, moving their own btc onto them. When they announce their new sidechain, they can offer to trade for coins on the main chain for slightly above the 1-1 peg. Those who want to use the sidechain can either a) convert their own coins which could take weeks or 2) buy premined sidechain coins for a small fee.


clever.

who would've thought.














"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
cypherdoc
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November 18, 2014, 04:30:47 AM
 #17365

as i see it, SC's are a temptation to make fast money thru inflation thru the indirect method of breaking Bitcoin's Sound Money function using federated servers which allows transformation of BTC to all manner of speculative assets (anything not BTC).  except that Blockstream will be in the best position to make USD's from that.  the rest of us will have to scramble to figure out which chain contains the most value.

the bigger reward, but longer battle, will be achieved by maintaining a self contained Bitcoin financial system that inextricably links the currency unit to its blockchain.  this will be much easier for us, all we have to do is hodl.

FTFY

maybe.

but those ppl are short sighted as the big column on the far right should be the goal.  there should be a column for gold:

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November 18, 2014, 04:39:15 AM
 #17366

http://blockstream.com/2014/11/17/blockstream-a-champion-of-bitcoins-core-values/
http://blockstream.com/2014/11/17/blockstream-closes-21m-seed-round/

Quote
we all share a demonstrated commitment to advancing an open source, cryptographically-enabled future that supports user’s rights and freedoms and creates lasting public benefit.

Quote
These values are also core to the group of investors who participated in our seed round. Both Reid Hoffman and Vinod Khosla are well known for their deep commitment and generous contributions to companies, projects and causes that have benefited millions of people around the world. As Reid mentions in his post today, he sees Blockstream as similar to Mozilla (Reid is a board member of Mozilla).

Quote
“And that’s why I’m participating in this first-round financing as an individual investor, and why Blockstream itself will function similarly to the Mozilla Corporation. Here, our first interest is maintaining and enhancing Bitcoin’s strong open ecosystem. And the structure we’ve chosen will give us the freedom and flexibility to prioritize public good over returns to investors.

Quote
We look forward to working with the community on fulfilling the potential of a faster pace of blockchain innovation, focussed and building on Bitcoin’s network-effect.

Quote
“Can’t be evil.” That was the first thing Adam Back and I wrote on a whiteboard at the start of the year.

Quote
Blockstream is the first startup focused on advancements to the core technology underpinning Bitcoin.
...
Blockstream is the first company extending the capabilities at the protocol level to support massive scaling of Bitcoin and blockchain technology to a broad range of asset types. Put another way, the extension mechanism of sidechains, the company’s initial area of focus, allows any number of so far unthought of developments to happen in an open and interoperable way.

Quote
Blockstream: A Champion of Bitcoin’s Core Values

Sounds like bad guys  Roll Eyes


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
brg444
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November 18, 2014, 04:41:13 AM
 #17367

as i see it, SC's are a temptation to make fast money thru inflation thru the indirect method of breaking Bitcoin's Sound Money function using federated servers which allows transformation of BTC to all manner of speculative assets (anything not BTC).  except that Blockstream will be in the best position to make USD's from that.  the rest of us will have to scramble to figure out which chain contains the most value.

the bigger reward, but longer battle, will be achieved by maintaining a self contained Bitcoin financial system that inextricably links the currency unit to its blockchain.  this will be much easier for us, all we have to do is hodl.

FTFY

maybe.

but those ppl are short sighted as the big column on the far right should be the goal.  there should be a column for gold:



I'm afraid this, is actualy a very shortsighted way to see things.

I'd like to suggest you this reading http://wefivekingsblog.blogspot.ca/2014/01/the-universe-wants-one-exchange.html if you haven't had the chance yet.

you will understand that your complaisance with Bitcoin as merely Sound Money might be misguided.


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
thezerg
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November 18, 2014, 04:49:25 AM
 #17368

In no way is the "Bitcoin's bullet proof BTC/blockchain linkage" broken.  The coins aren't actually moved to the other chain, they are held on the mainchain like gold in a vault and a representation which is NOT BTC and can't be spent at coinbase for example, appears on the sidechain.

There is no way sidechains break the 21 million scarcity limit of real BTC.  And anything that a sidechain could do to "dilute" the space (that is by creating a new token type) can be done with an altcoin today, and that has gotten nowhere.  Any "betrayal" of the BTC "brand" that can be done with sidechains can equivalently be done much more easily (and with the same brand damage) with centralized solutions.  We've seen it over and over again; Gox ponzi didn't kill BTC, and SCponzi won't either.  But the risk of SCponzi will certainly make the mainchain the preferred place to hold and make large transfers.  Sidechains will make Bitcoin the preferred long term store of value, because tremendous utility is just a chain transfer away.

  And how is Gox going to go Ponzi when the GoxBTC and GoxUSD on its sidechain must match the BTC "locked" on the mainchain and the USD in their bank accounts (which can be audited)?

If a multi-token sidechain is created with scBTC and inflata-Coin-to-make-devs-rich, what do you think people will do?  Probably not even touch the sidechain.  But assuming they do, they will hold the scBTC and when they need to "use" the sidechain features the require inflata-coin, they'll buy the inflata-coin moments before spending it.

But without sidechains you really do risk a new token that comes along and takes massive market share.  We as a society are not ready to put stocks, mortgages, etc on a blockchain (because why have the risk of a new tech coupled with the return of an old stock).  But someday we WILL be.  And when we are, what's going to be the preferred payment?  Old stodgy BTC that you have to sign up for exchanges, do AML, etc to access real markets, or tradecoin which can be tranformed into GOOG 5 seconds after receipt?  There's a REASON gold shot up when ETFs appeared -- its called access to markets.  

What about the IOT (internet of things) token?  20 years from now, items in your house might be doing 500 txns per day for a total of < $5 automatically on your behalf... Sidechains allow BTC to scale beyond our wildest dreams to applications we can't even consider.

You are like the guy who said there's only use for 5 computers in the world.  

You should instead consider that the biggest risk to BTC right now is the sidechain-altcoin that Blockstream so "kindly" offered to build instead of integrating these technologies directly into BTC.  That altcoin has the potential to leave BTC in the backwaters of digital currencies (except that I believe in the core devs in Blockstream to move the tech over).

Ok, that's probably the end of my rant... but my subsequent silence does not mean that you are right :-).  Honestly, I miss the great insights you guys (and mostly cypherdoc) provide about the larger world economic picture on this thread and hope that we can eventually get back to it!  But I'll tell you this; I'm a technologist and I've skipped from one newly breaking technology to the next for my entire career in startups; gaming, telecom in 1995-2000, storage, wireless, OSHW, bitcoin.  I'm telling you if sidechains CAN be done (honestly I haven't really verified the gory details of the automated 2-way peg myself) they WILL eventually be the dominant coin.  I proposed them in early 2012 (the concept not the mechanism)...  but don't worry to much, BTC will not die; it'll be the Rolls Royce with a valuation above what we have today, while the sidechain-enabled coin takes 99% of the market.

EDIT: tl;dr. Bitcoin is the zerg.  It will take over everything thru sidechains.
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November 18, 2014, 04:53:27 AM
 #17369

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/bitcoin-startup-buttercoin-lands-wedbush-as-investor-qW8Vi84nTaq4fbHea_TfJQ.html

Wedbush purchasing undisclosed stake in Buttercoin.

boom

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
Melbustus
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November 18, 2014, 05:24:48 AM
 #17370

Jim Rickards in an interview re: China debt, global depression (lower % growth than could be achieved - the Keynesian def) and timing of the next crisis

Anyways, speaking about a system reset, the last question was:

Do you think such scenarios make people more optimistic about crypto currencies like Bitcoins?

I see the rise of crypto-currencies as a sign of waning confidence in traditional currencies, such as the dollar. I expect the trend towards alternative currencies, such as Bitcoin, to grow as central banks continue to fail in their efforts to manipulate asset values.

http://internationalfinancemagazine.com/article/The-debt-problem-in-China-is-not-hype.html#sthash.XPW1qNhD.dpuf

Nice find.

The back pedaling is  almost complete.

And, accordingly on Twitter, his new online store accepts bitcoin.


wat!?  someone should call him out on that one.



That article is from November 7th, I see. Well, 6 days later he was upping his attack rhetoric on bitcoin:



He's tweeted that at least twice:

https://twitter.com/JamesGRickards/status/533306873525854208

https://twitter.com/JamesGRickards/status/533057485264134144


I get where he's coming from; it must be very annoying to spend your life advocating for something which gets less and less relevant every day only to have a bunch of young irreverent nerds eat your lunch when you're a couple years from retirement.

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
Cryptoasset rankings and metrics for investors: http://onchainfx.com
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November 18, 2014, 05:48:49 AM
 #17371

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/bitcoin-as-a-technology-bloomberg-panel-TnFJvX9~SOOgqr4UoiWRHw.html

WOW at Adam Ludwin from Chain hits a HOME RUN on the first question of the day in this panel.

Adresses straight away the blockchain without bitcoin myth and tears it apart.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 18, 2014, 06:03:24 AM
 #17372

http://blockstream.com/2014/11/17/blockstream-a-champion-of-bitcoins-core-values/
http://blockstream.com/2014/11/17/blockstream-closes-21m-seed-round/

Quote
we all share a demonstrated commitment to advancing an open source, cryptographically-enabled future that supports user’s rights and freedoms and creates lasting public benefit.

Quote
These values are also core to the group of investors who participated in our seed round. Both Reid Hoffman and Vinod Khosla are well known for their deep commitment and generous contributions to companies, projects and causes that have benefited millions of people around the world. As Reid mentions in his post today, he sees Blockstream as similar to Mozilla (Reid is a board member of Mozilla).

Quote
“And that’s why I’m participating in this first-round financing as an individual investor, and why Blockstream itself will function similarly to the Mozilla Corporation. Here, our first interest is maintaining and enhancing Bitcoin’s strong open ecosystem. And the structure we’ve chosen will give us the freedom and flexibility to prioritize public good over returns to investors.

Quote
We look forward to working with the community on fulfilling the potential of a faster pace of blockchain innovation, focussed and building on Bitcoin’s network-effect.

Quote
“Can’t be evil.” That was the first thing Adam Back and I wrote on a whiteboard at the start of the year.

Quote
Blockstream is the first startup focused on advancements to the core technology underpinning Bitcoin.
...
Blockstream is the first company extending the capabilities at the protocol level to support massive scaling of Bitcoin and blockchain technology to a broad range of asset types. Put another way, the extension mechanism of sidechains, the company’s initial area of focus, allows any number of so far unthought of developments to happen in an open and interoperable way.

Quote
Blockstream: A Champion of Bitcoin’s Core Values

Sounds like bad guys  Roll Eyes

Sounds great, help me connect the dots. VC's invest $21M to improve Bitcoin, we assume it is going to add value to our Bitcoin holdings (at least you insist it will) yet BlockStream has no business plan, and the asset that is to go up in value as a result of this donation investment is not owned in large quantities by the VS's.

What is it they know that I don't, why not invest in BTC, or a company with a business plan? Or is it just that I don't know the business plan and they don't need BTC to capitalize on the proposed Bitcoin protocol change?

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
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November 18, 2014, 06:06:25 AM
 #17373

http://blockstream.com/2014/11/17/blockstream-a-champion-of-bitcoins-core-values/
http://blockstream.com/2014/11/17/blockstream-closes-21m-seed-round/

Quote
we all share a demonstrated commitment to advancing an open source, cryptographically-enabled future that supports user’s rights and freedoms and creates lasting public benefit.

Quote
These values are also core to the group of investors who participated in our seed round. Both Reid Hoffman and Vinod Khosla are well known for their deep commitment and generous contributions to companies, projects and causes that have benefited millions of people around the world. As Reid mentions in his post today, he sees Blockstream as similar to Mozilla (Reid is a board member of Mozilla).

Quote
“And that’s why I’m participating in this first-round financing as an individual investor, and why Blockstream itself will function similarly to the Mozilla Corporation. Here, our first interest is maintaining and enhancing Bitcoin’s strong open ecosystem. And the structure we’ve chosen will give us the freedom and flexibility to prioritize public good over returns to investors.

Quote
We look forward to working with the community on fulfilling the potential of a faster pace of blockchain innovation, focussed and building on Bitcoin’s network-effect.

Quote
“Can’t be evil.” That was the first thing Adam Back and I wrote on a whiteboard at the start of the year.

Quote
Blockstream is the first startup focused on advancements to the core technology underpinning Bitcoin.
...
Blockstream is the first company extending the capabilities at the protocol level to support massive scaling of Bitcoin and blockchain technology to a broad range of asset types. Put another way, the extension mechanism of sidechains, the company’s initial area of focus, allows any number of so far unthought of developments to happen in an open and interoperable way.

Quote
Blockstream: A Champion of Bitcoin’s Core Values

Sounds like bad guys  Roll Eyes

Sounds great, help me connect the dots. VC's invest $21M to improve Bitcoin, we assume it is going to add value to our Bitcoin holdings (at least you insist it will) yet BlockStream has no business plan, and the asset that is to go up in value as a result of this donation  is not owned in large quantities by the VS's.

What is it they havethat I don't...

Vision.


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 18, 2014, 06:12:57 AM
 #17374


Vision.


 Cheesy That doesn't address the question, but the profit motive is missing how do they profit? As setup now Bitcoin isn't the winner.

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accesscoin
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November 18, 2014, 06:15:59 AM
 #17375

Can a sidechain restrict the number of BTC converted to sidechainCOIN?

If they can be restricted, than value of scCOIN can grow but only be obtained via direct purchase and not btc conversion when the cap is hit. This removes value from the mainchain and will only be converted back to BTC if the scCOIN becomes less valuable than BTC again.

If it can’t be restricted then if the scCOIN value rises so does the value of BTC. Since anyone can use this extra value by converting BTC to it.

This should be true as far as both the mainchain and sidechain are representing value as a number. But what if the sidechain is more like a colored coin where an asset is represented by a token. I don’t know how that would affect the mainchain positively or negatively restricted or unrestricted.
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November 18, 2014, 06:27:00 AM
 #17376

Can a sidechain restrict the number of BTC converted to sidechainCOIN?

If they can be restricted, than value of scCOIN can grow but only be obtained via direct purchase and not btc conversion when the cap is hit. This removes value from the mainchain and will only be converted back to BTC if the scCOIN becomes less valuable than BTC again.

If it can’t be restricted then if the scCOIN value rises so does the value of BTC. Since anyone can use this extra value by converting BTC to it.

This should be true as far as both the mainchain and sidechain are representing value as a number. But what if the sidechain is more like a colored coin where an asset is represented by a token. I don’t know how that would affect the mainchain positively or negatively restricted or unrestricted.

All options are feasible, even ugly tokens not pegged to the SideChain that is used to convert them.

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November 18, 2014, 06:27:52 AM
 #17377

you should be able to understand  that it CANT be ALL on the mainchain.  There are diametrically opposed requirements.  Like anonymity vs. public spending accountability.  Like handling vast numbers of txns per second vs. keeping all transactions forever.  Like blockchain spam vs. document timestamping.  There are plenty of things with diametrically opposed requirements in life, like sleeping (darkness) and reading a book (bright light); its unrealistic to imagine no 2 applications will emerge in a space which covers the entire concept of economic activity.

All of that is true, ergo altcoins exist.

Your desired "forced buy in to BTC" is improper and unnecessary.


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November 18, 2014, 06:40:16 AM
 #17378

Can a sidechain restrict the number of BTC converted to sidechainCOIN?

If they can be restricted, than value of scCOIN can grow but only be obtained via direct purchase and not btc conversion when the cap is hit. This removes value from the mainchain and will only be converted back to BTC if the scCOIN becomes less valuable than BTC again.

If it can’t be restricted then if the scCOIN value rises so does the value of BTC. Since anyone can use this extra value by converting BTC to it.

This should be true as far as both the mainchain and sidechain are representing value as a number. But what if the sidechain is more like a colored coin where an asset is represented by a token. I don’t know how that would affect the mainchain positively or negatively restricted or unrestricted.

All options are feasible, even ugly tokens not pegged to the SideChain that is used to convert them.

All options including restricting the numbers of BTC able to be converted? That seems like a hard sell for miners to run that software if it can diminish the value of the mainchain. Thoughts?
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November 18, 2014, 06:41:02 AM
 #17379

you should be able to understand  that it CANT be ALL on the mainchain.  There are diametrically opposed requirements.  Like anonymity vs. public spending accountability.  Like handling vast numbers of txns per second vs. keeping all transactions forever.  Like blockchain spam vs. document timestamping.  There are plenty of things with diametrically opposed requirements in life, like sleeping (darkness) and reading a book (bright light); its unrealistic to imagine no 2 applications will emerge in a space which covers the entire concept of economic activity.

All of that is true, ergo altcoins exist.

Your desired "forced buy in to BTC" is improper and unnecessary.

Its not forced, it is offering another choice of a new type of altcoin that happens to be backed by BTC.

As for whether the market wants that particular solution, we will have to see.
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November 18, 2014, 06:49:33 AM
 #17380

Can a sidechain restrict the number of BTC converted to sidechainCOIN?

If they can be restricted, than value of scCOIN can grow but only be obtained via direct purchase and not btc conversion when the cap is hit. This removes value from the mainchain and will only be converted back to BTC if the scCOIN becomes less valuable than BTC again.

If it can’t be restricted then if the scCOIN value rises so does the value of BTC. Since anyone can use this extra value by converting BTC to it.

This should be true as far as both the mainchain and sidechain are representing value as a number. But what if the sidechain is more like a colored coin where an asset is represented by a token. I don’t know how that would affect the mainchain positively or negatively restricted or unrestricted.

All options are feasible, even ugly tokens not pegged to the SideChain that is used to convert them.

All options including restricting the numbers of BTC able to be converted? That seems like a hard sell for miners to run that software if it can diminish the value of the mainchain. Thoughts?
Sure the free market will govern most options, not all will be successful, I am skeptical mainly because of the lack of attention to the downside risks.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
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