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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1806974 times)
cypherdoc
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June 04, 2015, 08:48:23 PM
 #25541

don't be an idiot.  you remember when he and Adam were posting here a few months ago to play their silly games?
How long do you really think it's been since either of them posted in this thread?

ask the idiot.
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tvbcof
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June 04, 2015, 08:52:40 PM
 #25542


i'm quite sure that gmax and his buddies came here to register their no votes. ...

I'm quite sure that Maxwell is way to busy with real stuff to play your silly little games.

don't be an idiot.  you remember when he and Adam were posting here a few months ago to play their silly games?

I remember Back's contributions on this thread well.  He was universally decent and thoughtful.  It was appreciated and it did a lot to help me develop some confidence in their efforts.

Speaking of, as an artifact of watching Maxwell's very good presentation which anonymint pointed out, noticed that Blockstream hired Stratman.  My recollection is that he was at least incompetent and possibly a scumbag in the Intersango thing.  That did NOT help build my confidence in them.  Lukedashjr has also done some highly questionable things over his stay in the ecosystem.  Blockstream seemed to have hired him on a contract basis to perform a task in which he had domain experience.  I can tolerate that better.  On balance the team is still amazing though.


Adrian-x
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June 04, 2015, 09:07:09 PM
 #25543


i'm quite sure that gmax and his buddies came here to register their no votes. ...

I'm quite sure that Maxwell is way to busy with real stuff to play your silly little games.

don't be an idiot.  you remember when he and Adam were posting here a few months ago to play their silly games?

I remember Back's contributions on this thread well.  He was universally decent and thoughtful.  It was appreciated and it did a lot to help me develop some confidence in their efforts.

Speaking of, as an artifact of watching Maxwell's very good presentation which anonyming pointed out, noticed that Blockstream hired Stratman.  My recollection is that he was at least incompetent and possibly a scumbag in the Intersango thing.  That did NOT help build my confidence in them.  Lukedashjr has also done some highly questionable things over his stay in the ecosystem.  Blockstream seemed to have hired him on a contract basis to perform a task in which he had domain experience.  I can tolerate that better.  On balance the team is still amazing though.


what type of domain experience?

my regular IP's where blocked from visiting blockstream.io but not new ones i had assess to, after complaining publicly, Adam had the firewall reset and I was able to use there site.

I'm glad it was resolved, intentional or not we'll never know.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
smooth
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June 04, 2015, 09:08:56 PM
 #25544

The blockchain appears to be a ledger, which is a tool to record and thus document transactions. But that is not the purpose of the blockchain, neither do we need it for that. We need it only to ensure the integrity of the system, to avoid double spending and guard against coin fractions coming from nowhere.
That's probably the most overlooked fact about Bitcoin.

Transactions using digital signatures are easy. We've had the technology since the 80s.

Bitcoin is special because it enforces a defined quantity of money without a trusted third party.

All the mining and the verification is done for the purpose of ensuring that that every balance being spent in a transaction legitimately existed prior to the transaction.

That and ordering. The entire purpose of mining (other than distribution) is to establish ordering so that if coins are double spent the new location of those coins is not ambiguous.

tvbcof
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June 04, 2015, 09:14:57 PM
 #25545

...
Lukedashjr has also done some highly questionable things over his stay in the ecosystem.  Blockstream seemed to have hired him on a contract basis to perform a task in which he had domain experience.  I can tolerate that better.  On balance the team is still amazing though.

what type of domain experience?

Some mining code iirc.  I didn't pay a lot of attention to it but the contract as tangentially described, seemed to make sense.

I only really remember my basic take-away from thinking about who was involved in Blockstream.  I try to put at least a little bit of thought into this aspect of a business.  I did the same about Coinbase who I actually did use.  I concluded that they are not to my liking philosophically, but that they were unlikely to rip me off and I needed services in their segment.  So far this has been true.


justusranvier
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June 04, 2015, 09:17:43 PM
 #25546

That and ordering. The entire purpose of mining (other than distribution) is to establish ordering so that if coins are double spent the new location of those coins is not ambiguous.
Ordering is a subset of the problem of maintaining the supply of money. Allowing the same coins to be spent twice is one of the ways that the supply can be violated.

Distribution is not a primary purpose of mining. We know this because the distribution function is temporary yet mining will continue even when there are no new coins to distribute.

Linking initial coin distribution to mining was just the least-bad way to get the coins into circulation.
cypherdoc
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June 04, 2015, 09:32:52 PM
 #25547

this lady is highly unlikely to be making a mistake:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZ6WR2R1MnM&feature=youtu.be
smooth
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June 04, 2015, 09:54:03 PM
 #25548

That and ordering. The entire purpose of mining (other than distribution) is to establish ordering so that if coins are double spent the new location of those coins is not ambiguous.
Ordering is a subset of the problem of maintaining the supply of money. Allowing the same coins to be spent twice is one of the ways that the supply can be violated.

Distribution is not a primary purpose of mining. We know this because the distribution function is temporary yet mining will continue even when there are no new coins to distribute.

Linking initial coin distribution to mining was just the least-bad way to get the coins into circulation.

The important point is that ordering is the only hard part. As you say, we've had digital signatures, and ordering is easy to do in a centralized system. Mining is needed to provide ordering in a decentralized system

As far as distribution being unimportant, we probably disagree a bit. I've never been sold on the idea of transaction fees properly incentivizing mining, so I don't really see the system as viable if distribution were to really end. Of course that won't actually happen in the current design for 100+ years so maybe it doesn't matter.

I also don't think think just a few words from satoshi in the white paper (or anything else he wrote) really suggest he did any careful analysis of how or if transaction fees as incentive would work. It seemed more like a kick the can approach, or an error.



smooth
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June 04, 2015, 10:07:03 PM
 #25549


<snip>

i smell Monero all over him.

Ok, as you mention it, and this is not meant as an attack on Monero, what I really don't understand is how a truly anonymous coin can survive, regardless of the tech, when the lead developers are public figures (eg Smooth, who was extremely helpful when I asked about the 21inc stuff) and they have a very public 'castle' as the home of one of their lead promoters (Risto).
How does that work if/when  the SHTF ??
Honestly, I have nothing against Monero, but I can't wrap my head around how something that TPTB will obviously fight against can flourish with these criteria. $5 wrench anyone ??

Please enlighten me. I say this in a truly non-confrontational manner - I am truly confused

I have to correct you for a bit here, Monero can be transparant on-demand. I also agree that a fully anonymous coin will probably get into some legal trouble.



But doesn't that optional anonymity property of Monero violate its fungibility argument? (smooth apologies if we'd already had this debate and I forgot)

TPTB will again use regulation and monopolization techniques to subsume Monero and force all users to turn off the anonymity else their coins don't transact.

You yourself have made the argument that it is vastly harder for authorities to impose draconian requirements directly on users.

If mining becomes centralized, however, then miners can indeed impose (or be compelled to impose) whatever requirements they want though, such as identifying yourself with secondary information, even if nothing within the primary protocol supports identification directly.

So yes, decentralized mining is a requirement for a coin that uses mining to have decentralized anything (including privacy).

I don't think fungibility is a problem, again as long as mining remains decentralized (and if it isn't then all bets are off) because the coins will get remixed into the fog within several hops, or sooner if people have a reason to mix aggressively.
Adrian-x
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June 04, 2015, 10:15:31 PM
 #25550

That and ordering. The entire purpose of mining (other than distribution) is to establish ordering so that if coins are double spent the new location of those coins is not ambiguous.
Ordering is a subset of the problem of maintaining the supply of money. Allowing the same coins to be spent twice is one of the ways that the supply can be violated.

Distribution is not a primary purpose of mining. We know this because the distribution function is temporary yet mining will continue even when there are no new coins to distribute.

Linking initial coin distribution to mining was just the least-bad way to get the coins into circulation.

The important point is that ordering is the only hard part. As you say, we've had digital signatures, and ordering is easy to do in a centralized system. Mining is needed to provide ordering in a decentralized system

As far as distribution being unimportant, we probably disagree a bit. I've never been sold on the idea of transaction fees properly incentivizing mining, so I don't really see the system as viable if distribution were to really end. Of course that won't actually happen in the current design for 100+ years so maybe it doesn't matter.

I also don't think think a few words from satoshi in the white paper (nor anything else he wrote) really suggest he did any careful analysis of how or if transaction fees as incentive would work. It seemed more like a kick the can approach, or an error.



I think he considered it enough to know not to just make it a fixed 0.2% of transaction cost or something, just think if Bitcoin had to scale to be a global money ledger with a fixed 0.2% fee 0.2% of all GDP would be financial fee that would be a significant savings on the current financial system tax we pay to engage in commerce, you would also be able to predict that 0.2% of energy consumed global would secure the network. its not like that because its a free market equation and it may be more or less depending on circumstances.

I think it irons out quite nicely so long as the incentives are preserved many are threatened with the likes of SideChains.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
Zangelbert Bingledack
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June 04, 2015, 11:54:46 PM
 #25551

This begs the question.  It presupposes success.
When a fork occurs, you are on one side or the other at the time of the fork.

"If everyone's doing it" means that they have already done it, so there is no longer anything to be attractive to them.  It is an event, not a migration.  Unless you are imagining many many failed forks until one finally succeeds, which would be exceedingly chaotic.

A hard fork shouldn't normally happen unless we have near-consensus enough for that effect to play. I thought the issue that there will be those last few percent who don't monitor the news, don't see the alert warning somehow (the big red button Gavin has doesn't at least interrupt the software forcing the user to pay attention before doing anything else?), and yet for some reason are needing to monitor a transaction involving themselves and somehow try to refer to their node software and not see anything amiss.

Those few people would be inconvenienced in a pretty big way because they wouldn't be able to validate payment on their own node without updating, but in practice at this time how big a deal is it really to trust another service, or the consensus of several? If we're talking about a merchant who hasn't who hasn't accepted a transaction for a month, is it likely to be for a huge amount? I don't really think merchant adoption has advanced very far yet, and most use Bitpay/Coinbase anyway. It's liable to create some problems and is hardly ideal, but as far as emergency fork it seems not undoable.

If someone could paint a picture of the potential issue they see that would help.
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June 05, 2015, 01:22:07 AM
 #25552

this lady is highly unlikely to be making a mistake:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZ6WR2R1MnM&feature=youtu.be

Will be amazing if she is right, maybe she just hopes she is as it definitely makes a good speech.  To say with that certainty that blockchain transactions will be part of all public financing and as ground breaking as the internet is quite a statement if we consider just how much trade is done by the markets every day.
  Thats a heck of alot of business to be completely changed into something new, I kinda believe her conclusion or at least that she believes it.   Did people or business ignore the internet early nineties ?  I worked for an ISP in 97 and I think it was fairly old in public concept by then but I guess many company websites were slow to establish

hendra147
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June 05, 2015, 01:23:44 AM
 #25553

sell your BTC and buy GOLD  Roll Eyes
iCEBREAKER
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June 05, 2015, 02:58:09 AM
 #25554

What really surprises me, is the anger and spite coming from the Gavin supporters. The vitriol and vehemence with which they attack anyone who has concerns about 20 MB blocks is unsettling.

With the known exception of Frap.doc, I think most of the lumpenredditards screaming for 20MB blocks are holding bags of very expensive BTC from the run up to $1200.

The mob's patience having been exhausted over the last year+, it's predictable they will start loudly demanding Something Be Done Now.

They are thus easily converted to the Gavinista cause, as they would rather destroy Bitcoin Classic in a risky attempt to "scale" horizontally than continue enduring stagnant prices while the technology for genuine orthogonal scaling is developed.

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
iCEBREAKER
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June 05, 2015, 03:18:40 AM
 #25555

You missed the point. Monero's "innovation" was the decision to add a single mixing routing "at the protocol level" which is only one method to create agreement between entities on how to mix coins. Bitcoin users can make the exact same decisions among themselves, mixing does not have to be specified at the protocol level.

The value add here is weak, it will not be enough to make the global bitcoin ecosystem of users switch.

XMR uses well-known, mathematically proven ring signatures and stealth addresses in an extremely clever scheme which provides emergent new functionality, much like Satoshi's ingenious arrangement of PoW, HashCash, etc.

Did you miss crypto gurus like gmaxwell and theymos stating it provides genuine innovation (no scare quotes needed)?

Did you miss the fact Monero's Cryptonote protocol is unique in providing near-ZKP levels of unlinkability and untracability?  Try reading the whitepaper (it's not very long): https://www.cryptonote.org/whitepaper.pdf

If you mix off-chain, you are merely obfuscating and therefore Doing It Wrong.

XMR isn't here to "make the global bitcoin ecosystem of users switch."

XMR is a complement, not competition, for BTC.  One provides transparency, the other opacity.  Salt & Pepper.   Cool

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
Dotto
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June 05, 2015, 03:45:24 AM
 #25556

The imposible monero>btc seems more plausible as time goes on
cypherdoc
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June 05, 2015, 03:55:41 AM
 #25557

The imposible monero>btc seems more plausible as time goes on

nope.  with Monero wallowing at near all-time lows relative to BTC and way down at #13 in the cryptocurrency mkts, it's no wonder iCELatte and his buddies have decided to come into this thread and try to take advantage of the 20MB controversy.  it's a shameless move yet quite expected from these altscam guys.  too bad it's not going to work:

cypherdoc
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June 05, 2015, 04:12:30 AM
 #25558

sell your BTC and buy GOLD  Roll Eyes

how does this look to you?  Roll Eyes

Gold!  show us the way, baby!:


majamalu
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June 05, 2015, 04:13:51 AM
 #25559

XMR is a complement, not competition, for BTC.  One provides transparency, the other opacity.  Salt & Pepper.   Cool

If it is competition at least there's a remote chance for xmr, otherwise it is doomed -- people that need it will not hold the units; they will make use and those units will be exchanged for btc units ASAP in the other end.

It might survive as a sidechain though.

http://elbitcoin.org - Bitcoin en español
http://mercadobitcoin.com - MercadoBitcoin
iCEBREAKER
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June 05, 2015, 04:32:17 AM
 #25560

XMR is a complement, not competition, for BTC.  One provides transparency, the other opacity.  Salt & Pepper.   Cool

If it is competition at least there's a remote chance for xmr, otherwise it is doomed -- people that need it will not hold the units; they will make use and those units will be exchanged for btc units ASAP in the other end.

It might survive as a sidechain though.

Where is the evidence for these naked assertions?  (Visible) market volume vs emission indicates most XMR miners are accumulating.

Why would the mutually-reinforcing perfect complement to BTC be "doomed?"  Let's wait until sidechains exist before drawing conclusions.

Another part of XMR's attraction is its property of being a hedge against BTC implemented with a completely different dev team, codebase, and PoW.

If forced to choose between them, I'd rather hold perfectly fungible XMR than possibly tainted, potentially white/black/red/grey-listed BTC.

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
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