Bitcoin Forum
December 06, 2016, 10:08:53 PM *
News: To be able to use the next phase of the beta forum software, please ensure that your email address is correct/functional.
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Poll
Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

Pages: « 1 ... 1220 1221 1222 1223 1224 1225 1226 1227 1228 1229 1230 1231 1232 1233 1234 1235 1236 1237 1238 1239 1240 1241 1242 1243 1244 1245 1246 1247 1248 1249 1250 1251 1252 1253 1254 1255 1256 1257 1258 1259 1260 1261 1262 1263 1264 1265 1266 1267 1268 1269 [1270] 1271 1272 1273 1274 1275 1276 1277 1278 1279 1280 1281 1282 1283 1284 1285 1286 1287 1288 1289 1290 1291 1292 1293 1294 1295 1296 1297 1298 1299 1300 1301 1302 1303 1304 1305 1306 1307 1308 1309 1310 1311 1312 1313 1314 1315 1316 1317 1318 1319 1320 ... 1560 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1805255 times)
iCEBREAKER
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1498


Crypto is the separation of Power and State.


View Profile WWW
June 03, 2015, 01:38:41 PM
 #25381


Yes, I've seen that quote from 2010 before and am still against 20mb blocks at this time.  My turn:

Satoshi's own words:

Quote
https://twitter.com/NickSzabo4
Jun 1
Bitcoin is a global currency. Good thread on int'l bandwidth & other threats to interconnectivity of Bitcoin miners: https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg08010.html

Nick Szabo retweeted
Peter Todd ‏@petertoddbtc May 30

FYI: @gavinandresen's (optimistic) 20MB block analysis had an arithmetic error, and actually supports 8MB blocks https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/37vg8y/is_the_blockstream_company_the_reason_why_4_core/crqgtgs

TL;DR Gavin's own math (when corrected) shows 8MB, not 20, is the right answer, so now he's willing to accept 8.

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
June 03, 2015, 02:06:55 PM
 #25382

Gavin's strength is his maturity and calm demeanor, imo.  he'll win if it comes down to a battle.

Nope.  Szatoshi will back Back and Maxwell.  The cypherpunks will stick together (or hang separately).

You should change your handle to 'FrappuccinoDoc.'   Grin

Bitcoin XT is a poison pill for all the newbs and unwary, certain bug fix commits that went into Core have already been omitted. Both Hearn and Andresen have been covertly anti-privacy from day zero, paying it only lip service when pressed. Don't trust it or them. Not to mention it is poorly maintained and totally untested. I can't believe I'm reading such a mad approach being championed on these pages ... it's like a twilight zone episode wtf are you people thinking !!! following Pied Pipers now?

I asked you once to support these serious allegations. Because you're calling Mike and Gavin liars otherwise.

You need to prove this now so that we can confirm or more likely dispense with you as a liar.
smooth
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246



View Profile
June 03, 2015, 05:53:41 PM
 #25383

Meni Rosenfeld proposes an elastic block cap where miners are penalized progressively for blocks bigger than whatever the limit is.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1078521.msg11517847

The idea is to avoid a "crash landing" at 1MB or even at 8 or 20MB. Bitcoin adoption is known to come in order-of-magnitude spurts, so even 20MB isn't immune to a crash landing scenario; and think how much harder another order-of-magnitude increase will be from 20MB, or from 200MB.

We need a way to turn these brick walls into gentle hills, not just lengthen the road leading to them. (To be clear, I think we should do both. Actually having no limit probably does both.)

Relevant and interesting comment from Reddit on this subject:

Quote from: Tacotime
As I noted in the thread, this is similar to the block sizing algorithm for Monero and other CryptoNote coins. A quadratic penalty is imposed such that block subsidy = base subsidy * ((block size / median size of last 400 blocks) - 1)2, with the penalty being applied after you build a block larger than the median size. The maximum block size is 2*median size. Because subsidy is based around the number of coins in existence, the 'burned' subsidy is deferred to be paid out to future blocks.

Unlike Meni's proposal, burned block subsidy is simply deferred to all future miners. So far, this has worked in CryptoNote coins without issue.

I am unsure of the incentives of the rollover fee pool method -- it seems like a way to smooth out and evenly distribute fees among miners, but I'm not sure if it work exactly the way it is intended to. For instance, it may disincentivize the inclusion of some larger fee transactions because the miner will fail to immediately benefit from them, and indeed, if the miner is small and only occasionally gets blocks, may never benefit from them. In this case, fees will end up being paid to the miner out of band, thus defeating the entire fee pool mechanism.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/389pq6/elastic_block_cap_with_rollover_penalties_my/crts1do

How are they using the term out of band in this context?

That was confusion with Meni's earlier proposal. The out of band issue (where miners change fees in some way other than via the normal Bitcoin fee mechanism, though it may still be in the transaction itself) does not apply to his new proposal.
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
June 03, 2015, 05:54:55 PM
 #25384

Gavin's strength is his maturity and calm demeanor, imo.  he'll win if it comes down to a battle.

Nope.  Szatoshi will back Back and Maxwell.  The cypherpunks will stick together (or hang separately).

You should change your handle to 'FrappuccinoDoc.'   Grin

Bitcoin XT is a poison pill for all the newbs and unwary, certain bug fix commits that went into Core have already been omitted. Both Hearn and Andresen have been covertly anti-privacy from day zero, paying it only lip service when pressed. Don't trust it or them. Not to mention it is poorly maintained and totally untested. I can't believe I'm reading such a mad approach being championed on these pages ... it's like a twilight zone episode wtf are you people thinking !!! following Pied Pipers now?

I asked you once to support these serious allegations. Because you're calling Mike and Gavin liars otherwise.

You need to prove this now so that we can confirm or more likely dispense with you as a liar.

marcus, we're still waiting.
mrhelpful
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1120



View Profile
June 03, 2015, 06:01:10 PM
 #25385


Yes, I've seen that quote from 2010 before and am still against 20mb blocks at this time.  My turn:

Satoshi's own words:

Quote
https://twitter.com/NickSzabo4
Jun 1
Bitcoin is a global currency. Good thread on int'l bandwidth & other threats to interconnectivity of Bitcoin miners: https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg08010.html

Nick Szabo retweeted
Peter Todd ‏@petertoddbtc May 30

FYI: @gavinandresen's (optimistic) 20MB block analysis had an arithmetic error, and actually supports 8MB blocks https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/37vg8y/is_the_blockstream_company_the_reason_why_4_core/crqgtgs

TL;DR Gavin's own math (when corrected) shows 8MB, not 20, is the right answer, so now he's willing to accept 8.

Sounds better then just 1 mb lol.

And this is something we would have to do every 5 years then? increase the block size? based on transaction volume etc.

NewLiberty
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1064


Gresham's Lawyer


View Profile WWW
June 03, 2015, 06:06:06 PM
 #25386

How did this go from a gold collapsing bitcoin up thread to a poll about Gavin?

The ongoing Gavinista coup and looming Great Schism are widely considered the most serious and credible threats yet to cypher's bullish "Bitcoin UP" prediction/outlook.

Is not the Chicago boys any of us have to worry about. It's the Monero boys.  

True.  Monero solved the block size issue on day one with adaptive block sizes and costing.  I'm not in favor of rushing anything and like sipa's list of todos before any increase of Bitcoin block size, but there is some urgency for that.
http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/34090896/

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
tvbcof
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1988


View Profile
June 03, 2015, 06:24:55 PM
 #25387


Converted my first node to XT today.

I figured that cypherdoc's stash would vanish eventually, and probably has been draining away through one scam or another over these past years.  He is a classic case of 'falling down in shit and coming up smelling like a rose', but it's inevitable that a guy of his caliber will have their luck run out eventually.  Now we see how the big one is likely hit him...by converting to an alt.  <snicker>


cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
June 03, 2015, 06:30:17 PM
 #25388


Converted my first node to XT today.

I figured that cypherdoc's stash would vanish eventually, and probably has been draining away through one scam or another over these past years.  He is a classic case of 'falling down in shit and coming up smelling like a rose', but it's inevitable that a guy of his caliber will have their luck run out eventually.  Now we see how the big one is likely hit him...by converting to an alt.  <snicker>



lol, what can i say about such idiocy?  it's just a node ffs.  but then, you  wouldn't know the difference anyways, eh?  it always amazes me the vomit that you are so willing to spew forth.
kazuki49
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 350



View Profile
June 03, 2015, 06:40:52 PM
 #25389

Do we really have to attack each other that soon? Wait for when theres 2 bitcoins, and I think you'll know who to blame, his name is in the thread's pool.
techgeek
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 826


View Profile
June 03, 2015, 07:27:15 PM
 #25390

Gavin's strength is his maturity and calm demeanor, imo.  he'll win if it comes down to a battle.

Nope.  Szatoshi will back Back and Maxwell.  The cypherpunks will stick together (or hang separately).

You should change your handle to 'FrappuccinoDoc.'   Grin

Bitcoin XT is a poison pill for all the newbs and unwary, certain bug fix commits that went into Core have already been omitted. Both Hearn and Andresen have been covertly anti-privacy from day zero, paying it only lip service when pressed. Don't trust it or them. Not to mention it is poorly maintained and totally untested. I can't believe I'm reading such a mad approach being championed on these pages ... it's like a twilight zone episode wtf are you people thinking !!! following Pied Pipers now?

I asked you once to support these serious allegations. Because you're calling Mike and Gavin liars otherwise.

You need to prove this now so that we can confirm or more likely dispense with you as a liar.

marcus, we're still waiting.

How do we get involved to improve the bitcoin xt?

Or is it like a invite only for now, for the core dev team?

cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
June 03, 2015, 07:34:48 PM
 #25391

How did this go from a gold collapsing bitcoin up thread to a poll about Gavin?

The ongoing Gavinista coup and looming Great Schism are widely considered the most serious and credible threats yet to cypher's bullish "Bitcoin UP" prediction/outlook.

Is not the Chicago boys any of us have to worry about. It's the Monero boys.  

True.  Monero solved the block size issue on day one with adaptive block sizes and costing.  I'm not in favor of rushing anything and like sipa's list of todos before any increase of Bitcoin block size, but there is some urgency for that.
http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/34090896/

there's nothing in there that hasn't been addressed by pro-block increase folks:


1.  again, he talks like 20MB will be instantly produced as a reason the network will choke.  no they won't, it will gradually increase over years during which bandwidth and storage will improve
2.  he talks about full nodes w/o ever considering users.  this is the problem i spoke about yesterday; these guys think the node is the fundamental unit which is wrong.  he mentions that merchants should be the ones to increase the #nodes; i agree.  but merchant businesses won't be created if there aren't users.  so grow the users thru wider adoption via cheaper fees and reliability.  don't choke them off with unconf tx's and high fees.
3.  he's right that "need" won't stop at 20MB but will just increase.  but that will take time as i said above and just how is that a bad thing to have all the extra users driving the system?  that will mean Bitcoin has successfully spread out thru growth.  but that growth can't happen if you have a technical choke on the system.
4.  i don't buy the fact that with 20MB that somehow large miners are going to pump out large blocks for a perceived benefit over small miners.  first off, all miners large and small probably have equal internet access speed.  it's a small cost to have one and any business running a pool is sure to have one so connectivity shouldn't be an issue.  as for the ability force small miners to process large blocks, this comes at the risk of the large miner getting orphaned trying to do so.  i've already explained why they shouldn't be bothered playing these games trying to hurt an undefined supposed enemy pool size.  Game theory effectively argues against this.  why shoot themselves in the foot undermining confidence in the system and crashing the price?  why alienate all their hashing clients who will pull out and punish them ala ghash?  it doesn't make sense.
5.  of all the Blockstream devs, Pieter would be the one who'd i think would be least captured.  but i have $21M that says he is at some level.
rocks
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1153


View Profile
June 03, 2015, 07:35:55 PM
 #25392


Converted my first node to XT today.

Was it as easy as expected? Just install and run with existing bitcoind directory? Or were there any catches?
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
June 03, 2015, 07:53:14 PM
 #25393


Converted my first node to XT today.

Was it as easy as expected? Just install and run with existing bitcoind directory? Or were there any catches?

yeah, i think so.  i got alittle confused a bit along the way but got it up and running.  if you run into trouble, install the dependencies from here:  https://github.com/bitcoinxt/bitcoinxt
Adrian-x
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1330



View Profile
June 03, 2015, 07:53:31 PM
 #25394


Converted my first node to XT today.

Was it as easy as expected? Just install and run with existing bitcoind directory? Or were there any catches?
on windows, just run the installer and all works, all config files are preserved and all CGminer scrips work as expected, cant say if Armory has any issues but I think it would just work.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
June 03, 2015, 07:57:07 PM
 #25395

how many do we have so far?

https://getaddr.bitnodes.io/nodes/?q=NODE_GETUTXOS

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/383jam/support_larger_blocks_by_running_a_bitcoin_xt/crsfori
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
June 03, 2015, 07:58:27 PM
 #25396


Converted my first node to XT today.

Was it as easy as expected? Just install and run with existing bitcoind directory? Or were there any catches?
on windows, just run the installer and all works, all config files are preserved and all CGminer scrips work as expected, cant say if Armory has any issues but I think it would just work.

doug@armory claims it should work just fine.  they aren't worried a bit.
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
June 03, 2015, 08:01:53 PM
 #25397

Gavin's strength is his maturity and calm demeanor, imo.  he'll win if it comes down to a battle.

Nope.  Szatoshi will back Back and Maxwell.  The cypherpunks will stick together (or hang separately).

You should change your handle to 'FrappuccinoDoc.'   Grin

Bitcoin XT is a poison pill for all the newbs and unwary, certain bug fix commits that went into Core have already been omitted. Both Hearn and Andresen have been covertly anti-privacy from day zero, paying it only lip service when pressed. Don't trust it or them. Not to mention it is poorly maintained and totally untested. I can't believe I'm reading such a mad approach being championed on these pages ... it's like a twilight zone episode wtf are you people thinking !!! following Pied Pipers now?

I asked you once to support these serious allegations. Because you're calling Mike and Gavin liars otherwise.

You need to prove this now so that we can confirm or more likely dispense with you as a liar.

marcus, we're still waiting.

How do we get involved to improve the bitcoin xt?

Or is it like a invite only for now, for the core dev team?

contact Mike Hearn or Gavin.  they're looking for help. golden opportunity to get involved.
Adrian-x
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1330



View Profile
June 03, 2015, 08:02:17 PM
 #25398


my node still registers as Satoshi:0.10.1/ on bitnodes.io


Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
June 03, 2015, 08:04:21 PM
 #25399


huh.  so the link from statoshi above indicates we may already have 85? Shocked
bambou
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 346


View Profile
June 03, 2015, 08:08:26 PM
 #25400

Gavin's strength is his maturity and calm demeanor, imo.  he'll win if it comes down to a battle.

Nope.  Szatoshi will back Back and Maxwell.  The cypherpunks will stick together (or hang separately).

You should change your handle to 'FrappuccinoDoc.'   Grin

Bitcoin XT is a poison pill for all the newbs and unwary, certain bug fix commits that went into Core have already been omitted. Both Hearn and Andresen have been covertly anti-privacy from day zero, paying it only lip service when pressed. Don't trust it or them. Not to mention it is poorly maintained and totally untested. I can't believe I'm reading such a mad approach being championed on these pages ... it's like a twilight zone episode wtf are you people thinking !!! following Pied Pipers now?

I asked you once to support these serious allegations. Because you're calling Mike and Gavin liars otherwise.

You need to prove this now so that we can confirm or more likely dispense with you as a liar.

marcus, we're still waiting.

How do we get involved to improve the bitcoin xt?

Or is it like a invite only for now, for the core dev team?

contact Mike Hearn or Gavin.  they're looking for help. golden opportunity to get involved.


Or just knock @CIA #MIT

Non inultus premor
Pages: « 1 ... 1220 1221 1222 1223 1224 1225 1226 1227 1228 1229 1230 1231 1232 1233 1234 1235 1236 1237 1238 1239 1240 1241 1242 1243 1244 1245 1246 1247 1248 1249 1250 1251 1252 1253 1254 1255 1256 1257 1258 1259 1260 1261 1262 1263 1264 1265 1266 1267 1268 1269 [1270] 1271 1272 1273 1274 1275 1276 1277 1278 1279 1280 1281 1282 1283 1284 1285 1286 1287 1288 1289 1290 1291 1292 1293 1294 1295 1296 1297 1298 1299 1300 1301 1302 1303 1304 1305 1306 1307 1308 1309 1310 1311 1312 1313 1314 1315 1316 1317 1318 1319 1320 ... 1560 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!