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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2011854 times)
justusranvier
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May 29, 2015, 11:26:00 AM
 #25001

The reason we have to worry about miners producing "too large" blocks is because they don't pay for all the P2P network resources they use (neither do end users).

All the arguments we have about resource consumption are derived from that primary design flaw.

If we fix it, then we won't have to argue any more.

Any mechanism you envision must also incorporate the fact that if collusion and monopolistic strategies are viable, they will be deployed.

Miners and pools have an incentive to include as many txns as they can get paid for and scale up the resource requirements to drive small miners to pools. So the community got up in arms about GHash.io, so no problem just hide your ownership behind a Sybil attack on the pools (that is surely the case today) so the community is either ignorantly pacified or can play Whack-A-Mole.

Even if you made txns free or negative cost (miners pay spenders), the incentive of the prior paragraph remains.

There is fundamental design flaw here that can't be fixed without radical overhaul of the design of PoW.
Economic FUD appears to be the type most resistant to being discarded after having been falsified. That particular bit has been floating around for over a century despite being thoroughly debunked.

https://www.mises.org/library/myth-natural-monopoly-0
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cypherdoc
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May 29, 2015, 01:23:22 PM
 #25002

But now (or Soon) is not the right time.  We need studies, simulations, and (most importantly) actual empirical feedback from persistent full blocks to best determine how and when to proceed with altering the 1mb parameter.
Wrong. We already know it will be a clusterfuck.

I venture my opinion from 30 years experience in IT, when it appears that you have zilch and should just speak to what you know about (Monero? Hashfast?)


good re-read.  and i'm pretty sure he changed that write-up.  initially, he claimed the entire UTXO was held in RAM but down in the Reddit comments for the thread several ppl pointed out that it was held on disk with a 100MB high speed cache.  so, bottom line, it doesn't necessarily appear that this is a problem except for maybe miners.  given that tx growth won't immediately go to 20MB/block, i think it's safe to say this space problem should be worked out in time.

I really think there is a fast and simple constraint on UTXO bloat which can be done:
Allowing the existing free transaction space to be used for tx which reduce UTXOs (i.e. negative delta) instead of being based upon the number of days destroyed, which was to encourage old coins being spent, something less important.

His would you respond to the criticism that you are decreasing  privacy this way?
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May 29, 2015, 01:58:46 PM
 #25003

Gavin moving forward. Will you be left behind? :

http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/34155307/
adamstgBit
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May 29, 2015, 02:00:26 PM
 #25004

Gavin moving forward. Will you be left behind? :

http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/34155307/


hdbuck
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May 29, 2015, 02:02:41 PM
 #25005


lol so now gavin is only considering mike's opinion. plus calling for lobbying ( big fat not-so-democratic word here Shocked ) from merchants and centralized businesses...

mymy.. USG get out of this body! Roll Eyes
adamstgBit
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May 29, 2015, 02:14:16 PM
 #25006


lol so now gavin is only considering mike's opinion. plus calling for lobbying ( Shocked ) from merchants and centralized businesses...

mymy.. USG get out of this body! Roll Eyes

He has to lobby merchants and exchanges to accept the changes because of the decentralized nature of Bitcoin.

this is what i want to see, the will of the majority crush the minority

this IS what Bitcoin is all about.

Do It Do it, come on, Do it!

cypherdoc
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May 29, 2015, 02:15:24 PM
 #25007

sorry to disappoint everyone but i've always said:

"The geeks fail to understand that which they hath created".
hdbuck
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May 29, 2015, 02:19:17 PM
 #25008


lol so now gavin is only considering mike's opinion. plus calling for lobbying ( Shocked ) from merchants and centralized businesses...

mymy.. USG get out of this body! Roll Eyes

He has to lobby merchants and exchanges to accept the changes because of the decentralized nature of Bitcoin.

this is what i want to see, the will of the majority crush the minority

this IS what Bitcoin is all about.

Do It Do it, come on, Do it!

As always, the majority is often wrong and misguided. Because masses are far more easy to manipulate than individuals. So your majority can go screw themselves as they are used to. Im not following the sheeples.

Seriously bitcoin is NOT about lobbying, that filthy practice which is far from democratic and in direct opposition to a natural consensus.
Bitcoin is about freedom.
It certainly doesnt need lobbyists a la TBF to take over teh world and them wall street scammers.

Gavin seems pretty desperate here. Good.


edit: funny the irony of such a nice bitcoiner like you to consider bypassing the decentralized consensus of Bitcoin with some nasty self centered lobbyists.
cypherdoc
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May 29, 2015, 02:23:24 PM
 #25009

sidhujag & Pruden.  i hope you've been paying attention:

cypherdoc
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May 29, 2015, 02:25:06 PM
 #25010

"Welcome To The Contraction": Q1 GDP Drops By 0.7%, Corporate Profits Crash

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-05-29/welcome-contraction-q1-gdp-drops-07-corporate-profits-crash
sickpig
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May 29, 2015, 02:26:28 PM
 #25011

sorry to disappoint everyone but i've always said:

"The geeks fail to understand that which they hath created".

so since Gavin define himself as an "all-around geek", what's your way forward?

(by the way Peter Todd and Gavin will be on the next LetsTalkBitcoin episode, along
with Adam/Andreas/Stephanie to talk about bitcoin scalability.)

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
HeliKopterBen
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May 29, 2015, 02:46:17 PM
 #25012


lol so now gavin is only considering mike's opinion. plus calling for lobbying ( Shocked ) from merchants and centralized businesses...

mymy.. USG get out of this body! Roll Eyes

He has to lobby merchants and exchanges to accept the changes because of the decentralized nature of Bitcoin.

this is what i want to see, the will of the majority crush the minority

this IS what Bitcoin is all about.

Do It Do it, come on, Do it!

As always, the majority is often wrong and misguided. Because masses are far more easy to manipulate than individuals. So your majority can go screw themselves as they are used to. Im not following the sheeples.

Seriously bitcoin is NOT about lobbying, that filthy practice which is far from democratic and in direct opposition to a natural consensus.
Bitcoin is about freedom.
It certainly doesnt need lobbyists a la TBF to take over teh world and them wall street scammers.

Gavin seems pretty desperate here. Good.


edit: funny the irony of such a nice bitcoiner like you to consider bypassing the decentralized consensus of Bitcoin with some nasty self centered lobbyists.


It's not about lobbying or desperation.  This is why bitcoin works:

Quote from: Gavin Andresen
Because if we can't come to consensus here, the ultimate authority for
determining consensus is what code the majority of merchants and exchanges
and miners are running.

Counterfeit:  made in imitation of something else with intent to deceive:  merriam-webster
hdbuck
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May 29, 2015, 02:48:36 PM
 #25013


lol so now gavin is only considering mike's opinion. plus calling for lobbying ( Shocked ) from merchants and centralized businesses...

mymy.. USG get out of this body! Roll Eyes

He has to lobby merchants and exchanges to accept the changes because of the decentralized nature of Bitcoin.

this is what i want to see, the will of the majority crush the minority

this IS what Bitcoin is all about.

Do It Do it, come on, Do it!

As always, the majority is often wrong and misguided. Because masses are far more easy to manipulate than individuals. So your majority can go screw themselves as they are used to. Im not following the sheeples.

Seriously bitcoin is NOT about lobbying, that filthy practice which is far from democratic and in direct opposition to a natural consensus.
Bitcoin is about freedom.
It certainly doesnt need lobbyists a la TBF to take over teh world and them wall street scammers.

Gavin seems pretty desperate here. Good.


edit: funny the irony of such a nice bitcoiner like you to consider bypassing the decentralized consensus of Bitcoin with some nasty self centered lobbyists.


It's not about lobbying or desperation.  This is why bitcoin works:

Quote from: Gavin Andresen
Because if we can't come to consensus here, the ultimate authority for
determining consensus is what code the majority of merchants and exchanges
and miners are running.

this is pure fud. what then? bitcoin is doomed? bitcoin back to 0 because you cant buy you frappuccino at MK's coffee shop in tokyo? please. Roll Eyes
cypherdoc
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May 29, 2015, 02:53:41 PM
 #25014


lol so now gavin is only considering mike's opinion. plus calling for lobbying ( Shocked ) from merchants and centralized businesses...

mymy.. USG get out of this body! Roll Eyes

He has to lobby merchants and exchanges to accept the changes because of the decentralized nature of Bitcoin.

this is what i want to see, the will of the majority crush the minority

this IS what Bitcoin is all about.

Do It Do it, come on, Do it!

As always, the majority is often wrong and misguided. Because masses are far more easy to manipulate than individuals. So your majority can go screw themselves as they are used to. Im not following the sheeples.

Seriously bitcoin is NOT about lobbying, that filthy practice which is far from democratic and in direct opposition to a natural consensus.
Bitcoin is about freedom.
It certainly doesnt need lobbyists a la TBF to take over teh world and them wall street scammers.

Gavin seems pretty desperate here. Good.


edit: funny the irony of such a nice bitcoiner like you to consider bypassing the decentralized consensus of Bitcoin with some nasty self centered lobbyists.


It's not about lobbying or desperation.  This is why bitcoin works:

Quote from: Gavin Andresen
Because if we can't come to consensus here, the ultimate authority for
determining consensus is what code the majority of merchants and exchanges
and miners are running.

this is pure fud. what then? bitcoin is doomed? bitcoin back to 0? please. Roll Eyes

what he is saying is that the economic majority will determine Bitcoin's future.  it always has.  this isn't some pigeon-hole geek experiment confined to technical considerations only.  this has always been primarily an economic project enforced thru technical means.  where would all these geeks be w/o all the fiat money poured into this project since the beginning?  no_where.

the geeks, esp gmax and LukeJr, have tried to make this a tail wagging the dog project.  instead, Gavin understands that ultimately the dog needs to wag the tail.
hdbuck
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May 29, 2015, 03:00:55 PM
 #25015


lol so now gavin is only considering mike's opinion. plus calling for lobbying ( Shocked ) from merchants and centralized businesses...

mymy.. USG get out of this body! Roll Eyes

He has to lobby merchants and exchanges to accept the changes because of the decentralized nature of Bitcoin.

this is what i want to see, the will of the majority crush the minority

this IS what Bitcoin is all about.

Do It Do it, come on, Do it!

As always, the majority is often wrong and misguided. Because masses are far more easy to manipulate than individuals. So your majority can go screw themselves as they are used to. Im not following the sheeples.

Seriously bitcoin is NOT about lobbying, that filthy practice which is far from democratic and in direct opposition to a natural consensus.
Bitcoin is about freedom.
It certainly doesnt need lobbyists a la TBF to take over teh world and them wall street scammers.

Gavin seems pretty desperate here. Good.


edit: funny the irony of such a nice bitcoiner like you to consider bypassing the decentralized consensus of Bitcoin with some nasty self centered lobbyists.


It's not about lobbying or desperation.  This is why bitcoin works:

Quote from: Gavin Andresen
Because if we can't come to consensus here, the ultimate authority for
determining consensus is what code the majority of merchants and exchanges
and miners are running.

this is pure fud. what then? bitcoin is doomed? bitcoin back to 0? please. Roll Eyes

what he is saying is that the economic majority will determine Bitcoin's future.  it always has.  this isn't some pigeon-hole geek experiment confined to technical considerations only.  this has always been primarily an economic project enforced thru technical means.  where would all these geeks be w/o all the fiat money poured into this project since the beginning?  no_where.

the geeks, esp gmax and LukeJr, have tried to make this a tail wagging the dog project.  instead, Gavin understands that ultimately the dog needs to wag the tail.


ultimately, gavin is USG's dog here.

seriously I am baffled that smart people like you here fail at grasping the situation regarding the US endoctrinement of the masses and manipulation of literally everything they could get a leverage with.

let it not be with Bitcoin. because decentralized consensus. thats what i signed for.

so ultimately, people will fight to get a (rare) piece of that secured and robust technology when the rest of the financial world will be on the hedge. so let it be decentralized man. no need friggin leaders. we already have enough of them.
cypherdoc
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May 29, 2015, 03:02:33 PM
 #25016

we all want things to launch right?  get your space suits on:

cypherdoc
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May 29, 2015, 03:15:46 PM
 #25017


lol so now gavin is only considering mike's opinion. plus calling for lobbying ( Shocked ) from merchants and centralized businesses...

mymy.. USG get out of this body! Roll Eyes

He has to lobby merchants and exchanges to accept the changes because of the decentralized nature of Bitcoin.

this is what i want to see, the will of the majority crush the minority

this IS what Bitcoin is all about.

Do It Do it, come on, Do it!

As always, the majority is often wrong and misguided. Because masses are far more easy to manipulate than individuals. So your majority can go screw themselves as they are used to. Im not following the sheeples.

Seriously bitcoin is NOT about lobbying, that filthy practice which is far from democratic and in direct opposition to a natural consensus.
Bitcoin is about freedom.
It certainly doesnt need lobbyists a la TBF to take over teh world and them wall street scammers.

Gavin seems pretty desperate here. Good.


edit: funny the irony of such a nice bitcoiner like you to consider bypassing the decentralized consensus of Bitcoin with some nasty self centered lobbyists.


It's not about lobbying or desperation.  This is why bitcoin works:

Quote from: Gavin Andresen
Because if we can't come to consensus here, the ultimate authority for
determining consensus is what code the majority of merchants and exchanges
and miners are running.

this is pure fud. what then? bitcoin is doomed? bitcoin back to 0? please. Roll Eyes

what he is saying is that the economic majority will determine Bitcoin's future.  it always has.  this isn't some pigeon-hole geek experiment confined to technical considerations only.  this has always been primarily an economic project enforced thru technical means.  where would all these geeks be w/o all the fiat money poured into this project since the beginning?  no_where.

the geeks, esp gmax and LukeJr, have tried to make this a tail wagging the dog project.  instead, Gavin understands that ultimately the dog needs to wag the tail.


ultimately, gavin is USG's dog here.

seriously I am baffled that smart people like you here fail at grasping the situation regarding the US endoctrinement of the masses and manipulation of literally everything they could get a leverage with.

let it not be with Bitcoin. because decentralized consensus. thats what i signed for.

so ultimately, people will fight to get a (rare) piece of that secured and robust technology when the rest of the financial world will be on the hedge. so let it be decentralized man. no need friggin leaders. we already have enough of them.

we're on the same team.  we all want more decentralization.  we're simply arguing about the best way to achieve that.  multiple ppl here have argued how increasing the block size will facilitate that.  i happen to think those arguments are most sound.

i'm not sure why you say Gavin is a USG lap dog.  over Bitcoin's entire history since his involvement, he has been shown to provide sound leadership.  my poll and the other github poll show this.  the general tenor of comments show this.  yes, there are haters but on balance he is the right one to have been chosen to be lead.  
cypherdoc
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May 29, 2015, 03:16:57 PM
 #25018

Gold preparing to take the next dive.
Adrian-x
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May 29, 2015, 03:20:54 PM
 #25019

The reason we have to worry about miners producing "too large" blocks is because they don't pay for all the P2P network resources they use (neither do end users).

All the arguments we have about resource consumption are derived from that primary design flaw.

If we fix it, then we won't have to argue any more.

Well put.

Till we have had a 1:1 ratio between full node and miner, the block reward
did pay for all the resoures involed in the process. Once such ratio started
to decrease, due to the introduction of mining pools, mining and full node
role became more and more decoupled.

The block reward remains on the miner side, though.
* edited to read more clearly.
I agree with the notion that miners are for the most part unaffected by block size and are empowered not to care, this is also why I dismiss those developer arguments that want to solve the block size problem by manipulating mining fees, or some variant of this idea. The incentive is not in the TX fee to reduce block size - that's paying miners not nodes if anything you want the incentive to be supply and demand based on node size.

Ironically it is only the competition for the fee between miners that will force writing blocks to the marginal cost and force the block size to the smallest size capable of sustaining a profit, this could be neatly modeled by the Nash equilibrium.

As block rewards diminishes the Nash equilibrium is introduced and miners become marginalized with little to no power in the system.

I participated in discussing the idea in 2012  of financially incentivizing notes in a market driven way to regulate miners and block size. But after pondering the idea over time it seemed it was not  necessary.

People invested in the idea that money is memory who store that memory on the blockchain - They have a lot of "memory",ie. an invested interest in the blockchain will want to preserve the blockchain, some call it altruistic but I prefer to think they will use greed for the grater good.

The conclusion I draw is as long as wealth is distributed and people are in competition with one another the blockchain will remain distributed. by the nature of the design of Bitcoin, the wealth that is still to move in to Bitcoin cannot be transferred into Bitcoin with out redistributing it to the participants who grow the network.  

 

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
cypherdoc
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May 29, 2015, 03:25:02 PM
 #25020

some call it altruistic but I prefer to think they will use greed for the grater good.

 

Nash was a great man.  watch the video:

https://twitter.com/cypherdoc2/status/602533856290349056
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