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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1977579 times)
Reggie Middleton
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May 29, 2015, 10:52:11 AM
 #25001

Pretty bold claims from Middleton, but I have tried it and it works, at least in a beta phase, not vapor phase or proof of concept phase, but beta phase.  You can trade all tickers that Cypherdoc mentions on here.  

I still don't understand how the tickers are fed into veritaseum to settle the bets. Can you explain that?

Saying "it works" without understanding how it works is short-sighted.

Twice or thrice I tried to find technical documentation (wading through all the promotional crap) and was stifled, so I assumed it is centralized bullshit.

That's my assumption, too... until it's explained how it works and it works in a way I can trust (which I doubt, but I've been wrong before).

If it's Reggie typing in 50000 tickers every hour then there might be no "counterparty risk", but there's plenty of other risk.

EDIT: I PMed him, maybe he'll show up here and explain. If not, it hardens my assumption.

See slide 14 here https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1UxB33wp1rCncBtPbuzQbkS1SZg_fjCTNMqu-wZGii-o/pub?start=true&loop=false&delayms=10000&slide=id.g7b8415063_38

Thanks for chipping in! Your other post ("centralized oracle") confirmed my suspicion. I don't share TPTB_need_war's view that that fact makes veritaseum centralized bullshit, though. I suspect it might be a great system. I love the fact that it lives on the bitcoin blockchain and has no other token. I also love that there's no counterparty risk and in addition I'm guessing it ties up some bitcoins in contracts and I do like that, too.

About the "other risk": where is the oracle on your server getting the tickers from? I guess that process should be made transparent at some point so we can at least know how it could be manipulated.

Certainly the incentive is high for some rogue employee somewhere to falsify some ticker feed you're pulling for just long enough for a large bet to be settled in his favor, no? Clearly there's noone capable/willing to fix something like that after the fact.


Only the data feed is centralized, everything else is fully distributed, which is better than centralized (reference the first link that I put up which explains this). A decentralized data feed just wouldn't work and it would be taking a step backwards from the current legacy system unless and until we have more activity than the centralized exchanges. Securities data fees are commodity items, and very easy to corroborate, very difficult to get away with in terms of fraud and/or manipulation.
As for someone in my camp manipulating a data feed, he/she would have a hard time doing so (we get them from 3rd parties) and even a harder time concealing it, and even a harder time than that getting away with it (each client plus the server has the ability to audit, although that is not implemented yet). You'd have to somehow change a data feed, hack into 3 disparate systems to inject that false data feed (whose real feed is freely availalble to all) and then hope nobody notices.
As it stands now, I believe our system is safer than the status quo by a long shot.

I understand. Thanks again for clearing some things up.

For the second time I will try to get my hands dirty with this. I have the client installed and the wallet backed up. Now I need some newbie type of help. I checked veritaseum.com for documentation and found the quick start video. It's hard to dig through the promotional talk and I stopped midway for now.

Is there some kind of written documentation somewhere on how to use the client and formulate orders? Is there a support chat on irc or a bitcointalk thread? I don't want to spam this beauty here.


First of all, thanks for giving us a try. I personally appreciate it.

Look in the products menu at the top of the site for the following links (and more stuff):
 Quick start tutorial http://veritaseum.com/index.php/download/veritaseum-wallet/quick-start-tutorial
Trade modelling utility http://veritaseum.com/index.php/download/veritaseum-wallet/trade-modelling-utility

If you wish, I can walk you through a trade right here in this forum. It's actually very simple, it's just based on the general concept of a swap thus possibly quite different from what many are used to. Think in terms of buying one exposure and paying for it with another. Use tickers to describe each exposure you'd like to buy (receive) and sell (pay) and voila, you've created your first swap contract! Don't use time based tickers that contain dates (ex. options or futures). If you want a high leverage contract based on an underlying or an index, you can use a ticker to access that underlying or index directly (ex 10 year treasury) then use our leverage option to dial in as much gearing as your stomach can handle. Its digital, and its unlimited (theoretically up to 10,000x). This way you avoid theta and time decay issues inherent in options, as well has delta and gamma and sensitivity to volatility. As I mentioned to the guy in the previous post these are swaps, not options. Options are not well suited for bitcoin speculation due to their sensitivity to volatility and bitcoins extreme volatility.

The trade modelling utility is an excel spreadsheet that allows you to fully model any trade with expenses, sensitivity analysis, etc. Veritaseum is actually a very power platform that can allow you to create a structure that has exposure to up to 5 different assets simultaneously with leverage of several hundred times! As you may be able to ascertain, this can be very difficult to do in your head! At the same time you can do a simple buy Apple for USD trade or short BTC for USD (or EUR or EURGBP pair, etc.).

If you are going to explicitly trade forex, you must use "=x" to indicate your desire to have that ticker represent a forex symbol. For instance, "USD=x" is the symbol for US dollars, while "USD" is the ticker for ProShares Ultra Semiconductors (USD) -NYSEArca. With ~45,000 of so tickers to choose from, you have to be rather exact. The client will attempt to validate the tickers for you, but it can't tell that you meant USD currency vs USD leveraged ETF without the correct input. I mention this because this is a mistake that I assume is being made.

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Reggie Middleton
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May 29, 2015, 11:03:33 AM
 #25002

Pretty bold claims from Middleton, but I have tried it and it works, at least in a beta phase, not vapor phase or proof of concept phase, but beta phase.  You can trade all tickers that Cypherdoc mentions on here.  

I still don't understand how the tickers are fed into veritaseum to settle the bets. Can you explain that?

Saying "it works" without understanding how it works is short-sighted.

Twice or thrice I tried to find technical documentation (wading through all the promotional crap) and was stifled, so I assumed it is centralized bullshit.

That's my assumption, too... until it's explained how it works and it works in a way I can trust (which I doubt, but I've been wrong before).

If it's Reggie typing in 50000 tickers every hour then there might be no "counterparty risk", but there's plenty of other risk.

EDIT: I PMed him, maybe he'll show up here and explain. If not, it hardens my assumption.

See slide 14 here https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1UxB33wp1rCncBtPbuzQbkS1SZg_fjCTNMqu-wZGii-o/pub?start=true&loop=false&delayms=10000&slide=id.g7b8415063_38

Thanks for chipping in! Your other post ("centralized oracle") confirmed my suspicion. I don't share TPTB_need_war's view that that fact makes veritaseum centralized bullshit, though. I suspect it might be a great system. I love the fact that it lives on the bitcoin blockchain and has no other token. I also love that there's no counterparty risk and in addition I'm guessing it ties up some bitcoins in contracts and I do like that, too.

About the "other risk": where is the oracle on your server getting the tickers from? I guess that process should be made transparent at some point so we can at least know how it could be manipulated.

Certainly the incentive is high for some rogue employee somewhere to falsify some ticker feed you're pulling for just long enough for a large bet to be settled in his favor, no? Clearly there's noone capable/willing to fix something like that after the fact.


Only the data feed is centralized, everything else is fully distributed, which is better than centralized (reference the first link that I put up which explains this). A decentralized data feed just wouldn't work and it would be taking a step backwards from the current legacy system unless and until we have more activity than the centralized exchanges. Securities data fees are commodity items, and very easy to corroborate, very difficult to get away with in terms of fraud and/or manipulation.
As for someone in my camp manipulating a data feed, he/she would have a hard time doing so (we get them from 3rd parties) and even a harder time concealing it, and even a harder time than that getting away with it (each client plus the server has the ability to audit, although that is not implemented yet). You'd have to somehow change a data feed, hack into 3 disparate systems to inject that false data feed (whose real feed is freely availalble to all) and then hope nobody notices.
As it stands now, I believe our system is safer than the status quo by a long shot.

I understand.

Are you sure you (and he) understand?

Reggie sidesteps the issue of transient (perhaps un-auditable) manipulation of data feeds in conjunction with high frequency trading manipulation.

One thing programmers know that n00bs don't, "the devil is in the details" and "you don't know the whole story until you dig into the coding (the top-down perspective may be altered in the process)".

Download the client and give it a try. It's a fully functional system and you can see that it runs cleanly.

It is probably impossible (short of reverse engineering or building an extensive test kit) to determine that it runs cleanly without seeing the source code, because for example how do we evaluate how it might work in extreme or panic market conditions, under DDoS or high-frequency trading attacks, etc..

Maybe you should clarify it for us "N00bs". Exactly what does HFT have to do with digital OTC swaps, particularly P2P swaps. For the life of me, I can't figure it out and as far as I know I believe I created them.

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Reggie Middleton
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May 29, 2015, 11:08:24 AM
 #25003


We offer tokens for sale that allow you to consult with us to extend both our tech and our financial engineering see https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1FMyNvogofqojqG6nkIjgvvjAnsWs1qOtKUFExvtp_m0/pub?start=false&loop=false&delayms=10000 and use this link to purchase them http://veritaseum.com/index.php/buy-veritas/quick-start-guide. So, if access to the client code is something that a client really wants, I'm sure we can work something out.

I threw 1BTC at this when you first released it a little while back. Is this tradeable now? 

They are tradable directly now, we are looking for credible exchanges that will carry colored coins.

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justusranvier
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May 29, 2015, 11:26:00 AM
 #25004

The reason we have to worry about miners producing "too large" blocks is because they don't pay for all the P2P network resources they use (neither do end users).

All the arguments we have about resource consumption are derived from that primary design flaw.

If we fix it, then we won't have to argue any more.

Any mechanism you envision must also incorporate the fact that if collusion and monopolistic strategies are viable, they will be deployed.

Miners and pools have an incentive to include as many txns as they can get paid for and scale up the resource requirements to drive small miners to pools. So the community got up in arms about GHash.io, so no problem just hide your ownership behind a Sybil attack on the pools (that is surely the case today) so the community is either ignorantly pacified or can play Whack-A-Mole.

Even if you made txns free or negative cost (miners pay spenders), the incentive of the prior paragraph remains.

There is fundamental design flaw here that can't be fixed without radical overhaul of the design of PoW.
Economic FUD appears to be the type most resistant to being discarded after having been falsified. That particular bit has been floating around for over a century despite being thoroughly debunked.

https://www.mises.org/library/myth-natural-monopoly-0
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May 29, 2015, 01:23:22 PM
 #25005

But now (or Soon) is not the right time.  We need studies, simulations, and (most importantly) actual empirical feedback from persistent full blocks to best determine how and when to proceed with altering the 1mb parameter.
Wrong. We already know it will be a clusterfuck.

I venture my opinion from 30 years experience in IT, when it appears that you have zilch and should just speak to what you know about (Monero? Hashfast?)


good re-read.  and i'm pretty sure he changed that write-up.  initially, he claimed the entire UTXO was held in RAM but down in the Reddit comments for the thread several ppl pointed out that it was held on disk with a 100MB high speed cache.  so, bottom line, it doesn't necessarily appear that this is a problem except for maybe miners.  given that tx growth won't immediately go to 20MB/block, i think it's safe to say this space problem should be worked out in time.

I really think there is a fast and simple constraint on UTXO bloat which can be done:
Allowing the existing free transaction space to be used for tx which reduce UTXOs (i.e. negative delta) instead of being based upon the number of days destroyed, which was to encourage old coins being spent, something less important.

His would you respond to the criticism that you are decreasing  privacy this way?
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May 29, 2015, 01:58:46 PM
 #25006

Gavin moving forward. Will you be left behind? :

http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/34155307/
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May 29, 2015, 02:00:26 PM
 #25007

Gavin moving forward. Will you be left behind? :

http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/34155307/


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May 29, 2015, 02:02:41 PM
 #25008


lol so now gavin is only considering mike's opinion. plus calling for lobbying ( big fat not-so-democratic word here Shocked ) from merchants and centralized businesses...

mymy.. USG get out of this body! Roll Eyes
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May 29, 2015, 02:14:16 PM
 #25009


lol so now gavin is only considering mike's opinion. plus calling for lobbying ( Shocked ) from merchants and centralized businesses...

mymy.. USG get out of this body! Roll Eyes

He has to lobby merchants and exchanges to accept the changes because of the decentralized nature of Bitcoin.

this is what i want to see, the will of the majority crush the minority

this IS what Bitcoin is all about.

Do It Do it, come on, Do it!

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May 29, 2015, 02:15:24 PM
 #25010

sorry to disappoint everyone but i've always said:

"The geeks fail to understand that which they hath created".
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May 29, 2015, 02:19:17 PM
 #25011


lol so now gavin is only considering mike's opinion. plus calling for lobbying ( Shocked ) from merchants and centralized businesses...

mymy.. USG get out of this body! Roll Eyes

He has to lobby merchants and exchanges to accept the changes because of the decentralized nature of Bitcoin.

this is what i want to see, the will of the majority crush the minority

this IS what Bitcoin is all about.

Do It Do it, come on, Do it!

As always, the majority is often wrong and misguided. Because masses are far more easy to manipulate than individuals. So your majority can go screw themselves as they are used to. Im not following the sheeples.

Seriously bitcoin is NOT about lobbying, that filthy practice which is far from democratic and in direct opposition to a natural consensus.
Bitcoin is about freedom.
It certainly doesnt need lobbyists a la TBF to take over teh world and them wall street scammers.

Gavin seems pretty desperate here. Good.


edit: funny the irony of such a nice bitcoiner like you to consider bypassing the decentralized consensus of Bitcoin with some nasty self centered lobbyists.
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May 29, 2015, 02:23:24 PM
 #25012

sidhujag & Pruden.  i hope you've been paying attention:

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May 29, 2015, 02:25:06 PM
 #25013

"Welcome To The Contraction": Q1 GDP Drops By 0.7%, Corporate Profits Crash

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-05-29/welcome-contraction-q1-gdp-drops-07-corporate-profits-crash
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May 29, 2015, 02:26:28 PM
 #25014

sorry to disappoint everyone but i've always said:

"The geeks fail to understand that which they hath created".

so since Gavin define himself as an "all-around geek", what's your way forward?

(by the way Peter Todd and Gavin will be on the next LetsTalkBitcoin episode, along
with Adam/Andreas/Stephanie to talk about bitcoin scalability.)

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
HeliKopterBen
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May 29, 2015, 02:46:17 PM
 #25015


lol so now gavin is only considering mike's opinion. plus calling for lobbying ( Shocked ) from merchants and centralized businesses...

mymy.. USG get out of this body! Roll Eyes

He has to lobby merchants and exchanges to accept the changes because of the decentralized nature of Bitcoin.

this is what i want to see, the will of the majority crush the minority

this IS what Bitcoin is all about.

Do It Do it, come on, Do it!

As always, the majority is often wrong and misguided. Because masses are far more easy to manipulate than individuals. So your majority can go screw themselves as they are used to. Im not following the sheeples.

Seriously bitcoin is NOT about lobbying, that filthy practice which is far from democratic and in direct opposition to a natural consensus.
Bitcoin is about freedom.
It certainly doesnt need lobbyists a la TBF to take over teh world and them wall street scammers.

Gavin seems pretty desperate here. Good.


edit: funny the irony of such a nice bitcoiner like you to consider bypassing the decentralized consensus of Bitcoin with some nasty self centered lobbyists.


It's not about lobbying or desperation.  This is why bitcoin works:

Quote from: Gavin Andresen
Because if we can't come to consensus here, the ultimate authority for
determining consensus is what code the majority of merchants and exchanges
and miners are running.

Counterfeit:  made in imitation of something else with intent to deceive:  merriam-webster
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May 29, 2015, 02:48:36 PM
 #25016


lol so now gavin is only considering mike's opinion. plus calling for lobbying ( Shocked ) from merchants and centralized businesses...

mymy.. USG get out of this body! Roll Eyes

He has to lobby merchants and exchanges to accept the changes because of the decentralized nature of Bitcoin.

this is what i want to see, the will of the majority crush the minority

this IS what Bitcoin is all about.

Do It Do it, come on, Do it!

As always, the majority is often wrong and misguided. Because masses are far more easy to manipulate than individuals. So your majority can go screw themselves as they are used to. Im not following the sheeples.

Seriously bitcoin is NOT about lobbying, that filthy practice which is far from democratic and in direct opposition to a natural consensus.
Bitcoin is about freedom.
It certainly doesnt need lobbyists a la TBF to take over teh world and them wall street scammers.

Gavin seems pretty desperate here. Good.


edit: funny the irony of such a nice bitcoiner like you to consider bypassing the decentralized consensus of Bitcoin with some nasty self centered lobbyists.


It's not about lobbying or desperation.  This is why bitcoin works:

Quote from: Gavin Andresen
Because if we can't come to consensus here, the ultimate authority for
determining consensus is what code the majority of merchants and exchanges
and miners are running.

this is pure fud. what then? bitcoin is doomed? bitcoin back to 0 because you cant buy you frappuccino at MK's coffee shop in tokyo? please. Roll Eyes
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May 29, 2015, 02:53:41 PM
 #25017


lol so now gavin is only considering mike's opinion. plus calling for lobbying ( Shocked ) from merchants and centralized businesses...

mymy.. USG get out of this body! Roll Eyes

He has to lobby merchants and exchanges to accept the changes because of the decentralized nature of Bitcoin.

this is what i want to see, the will of the majority crush the minority

this IS what Bitcoin is all about.

Do It Do it, come on, Do it!

As always, the majority is often wrong and misguided. Because masses are far more easy to manipulate than individuals. So your majority can go screw themselves as they are used to. Im not following the sheeples.

Seriously bitcoin is NOT about lobbying, that filthy practice which is far from democratic and in direct opposition to a natural consensus.
Bitcoin is about freedom.
It certainly doesnt need lobbyists a la TBF to take over teh world and them wall street scammers.

Gavin seems pretty desperate here. Good.


edit: funny the irony of such a nice bitcoiner like you to consider bypassing the decentralized consensus of Bitcoin with some nasty self centered lobbyists.


It's not about lobbying or desperation.  This is why bitcoin works:

Quote from: Gavin Andresen
Because if we can't come to consensus here, the ultimate authority for
determining consensus is what code the majority of merchants and exchanges
and miners are running.

this is pure fud. what then? bitcoin is doomed? bitcoin back to 0? please. Roll Eyes

what he is saying is that the economic majority will determine Bitcoin's future.  it always has.  this isn't some pigeon-hole geek experiment confined to technical considerations only.  this has always been primarily an economic project enforced thru technical means.  where would all these geeks be w/o all the fiat money poured into this project since the beginning?  no_where.

the geeks, esp gmax and LukeJr, have tried to make this a tail wagging the dog project.  instead, Gavin understands that ultimately the dog needs to wag the tail.
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May 29, 2015, 03:00:55 PM
 #25018


lol so now gavin is only considering mike's opinion. plus calling for lobbying ( Shocked ) from merchants and centralized businesses...

mymy.. USG get out of this body! Roll Eyes

He has to lobby merchants and exchanges to accept the changes because of the decentralized nature of Bitcoin.

this is what i want to see, the will of the majority crush the minority

this IS what Bitcoin is all about.

Do It Do it, come on, Do it!

As always, the majority is often wrong and misguided. Because masses are far more easy to manipulate than individuals. So your majority can go screw themselves as they are used to. Im not following the sheeples.

Seriously bitcoin is NOT about lobbying, that filthy practice which is far from democratic and in direct opposition to a natural consensus.
Bitcoin is about freedom.
It certainly doesnt need lobbyists a la TBF to take over teh world and them wall street scammers.

Gavin seems pretty desperate here. Good.


edit: funny the irony of such a nice bitcoiner like you to consider bypassing the decentralized consensus of Bitcoin with some nasty self centered lobbyists.


It's not about lobbying or desperation.  This is why bitcoin works:

Quote from: Gavin Andresen
Because if we can't come to consensus here, the ultimate authority for
determining consensus is what code the majority of merchants and exchanges
and miners are running.

this is pure fud. what then? bitcoin is doomed? bitcoin back to 0? please. Roll Eyes

what he is saying is that the economic majority will determine Bitcoin's future.  it always has.  this isn't some pigeon-hole geek experiment confined to technical considerations only.  this has always been primarily an economic project enforced thru technical means.  where would all these geeks be w/o all the fiat money poured into this project since the beginning?  no_where.

the geeks, esp gmax and LukeJr, have tried to make this a tail wagging the dog project.  instead, Gavin understands that ultimately the dog needs to wag the tail.


ultimately, gavin is USG's dog here.

seriously I am baffled that smart people like you here fail at grasping the situation regarding the US endoctrinement of the masses and manipulation of literally everything they could get a leverage with.

let it not be with Bitcoin. because decentralized consensus. thats what i signed for.

so ultimately, people will fight to get a (rare) piece of that secured and robust technology when the rest of the financial world will be on the hedge. so let it be decentralized man. no need friggin leaders. we already have enough of them.
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May 29, 2015, 03:02:33 PM
 #25019

we all want things to launch right?  get your space suits on:

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May 29, 2015, 03:15:46 PM
 #25020


lol so now gavin is only considering mike's opinion. plus calling for lobbying ( Shocked ) from merchants and centralized businesses...

mymy.. USG get out of this body! Roll Eyes

He has to lobby merchants and exchanges to accept the changes because of the decentralized nature of Bitcoin.

this is what i want to see, the will of the majority crush the minority

this IS what Bitcoin is all about.

Do It Do it, come on, Do it!

As always, the majority is often wrong and misguided. Because masses are far more easy to manipulate than individuals. So your majority can go screw themselves as they are used to. Im not following the sheeples.

Seriously bitcoin is NOT about lobbying, that filthy practice which is far from democratic and in direct opposition to a natural consensus.
Bitcoin is about freedom.
It certainly doesnt need lobbyists a la TBF to take over teh world and them wall street scammers.

Gavin seems pretty desperate here. Good.


edit: funny the irony of such a nice bitcoiner like you to consider bypassing the decentralized consensus of Bitcoin with some nasty self centered lobbyists.


It's not about lobbying or desperation.  This is why bitcoin works:

Quote from: Gavin Andresen
Because if we can't come to consensus here, the ultimate authority for
determining consensus is what code the majority of merchants and exchanges
and miners are running.

this is pure fud. what then? bitcoin is doomed? bitcoin back to 0? please. Roll Eyes

what he is saying is that the economic majority will determine Bitcoin's future.  it always has.  this isn't some pigeon-hole geek experiment confined to technical considerations only.  this has always been primarily an economic project enforced thru technical means.  where would all these geeks be w/o all the fiat money poured into this project since the beginning?  no_where.

the geeks, esp gmax and LukeJr, have tried to make this a tail wagging the dog project.  instead, Gavin understands that ultimately the dog needs to wag the tail.


ultimately, gavin is USG's dog here.

seriously I am baffled that smart people like you here fail at grasping the situation regarding the US endoctrinement of the masses and manipulation of literally everything they could get a leverage with.

let it not be with Bitcoin. because decentralized consensus. thats what i signed for.

so ultimately, people will fight to get a (rare) piece of that secured and robust technology when the rest of the financial world will be on the hedge. so let it be decentralized man. no need friggin leaders. we already have enough of them.

we're on the same team.  we all want more decentralization.  we're simply arguing about the best way to achieve that.  multiple ppl here have argued how increasing the block size will facilitate that.  i happen to think those arguments are most sound.

i'm not sure why you say Gavin is a USG lap dog.  over Bitcoin's entire history since his involvement, he has been shown to provide sound leadership.  my poll and the other github poll show this.  the general tenor of comments show this.  yes, there are haters but on balance he is the right one to have been chosen to be lead.  
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