Bitcoin Forum
December 05, 2016, 12:43:34 PM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.13.1  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Poll
Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

Pages: « 1 ... 1223 1224 1225 1226 1227 1228 1229 1230 1231 1232 1233 1234 1235 1236 1237 1238 1239 1240 1241 1242 1243 1244 1245 1246 1247 1248 1249 1250 1251 1252 1253 1254 1255 1256 1257 1258 1259 1260 1261 1262 1263 1264 1265 1266 1267 1268 1269 1270 1271 1272 [1273] 1274 1275 1276 1277 1278 1279 1280 1281 1282 1283 1284 1285 1286 1287 1288 1289 1290 1291 1292 1293 1294 1295 1296 1297 1298 1299 1300 1301 1302 1303 1304 1305 1306 1307 1308 1309 1310 1311 1312 1313 1314 1315 1316 1317 1318 1319 1320 1321 1322 1323 ... 1560 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1804604 times)
TPTB_need_war
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 420


View Profile
June 04, 2015, 01:20:26 AM
 #25441

What am I missing here?

I agree with your points about open-source. His point I think is that if the leaders are taken down and the coin needs further leadership, it might be co-opted by changes from newly inserted lead devs.

The underlying point is that coins aren't truly decentralized because users are dumb (or preoccupied and can't be detailed diligent) thus rely on lead devs to the do the right decisions.

The point is that coins aren't really done and on auto-pilot. They require ongoing upkeep from lead devs.

1480941814
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1480941814

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1480941814
Reply with quote  #2

1480941814
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1480941814
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1480941814

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1480941814
Reply with quote  #2

1480941814
Report to moderator
1480941814
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1480941814

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1480941814
Reply with quote  #2

1480941814
Report to moderator
1480941814
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1480941814

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1480941814
Reply with quote  #2

1480941814
Report to moderator
kazuki49
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 350



View Profile
June 04, 2015, 01:21:37 AM
 #25442

What am I missing here?

I agree with your points about open-source. His point I think is that if the leaders are taken down and the coin needs further leadership, it might be co-opted by changes from newly inserted lead devs.

The underlying point is that coins aren't truly decentralized because users are dumb and rely on lead devs to the do the right decisions.

lol thats always a danger, I agree with him them.
phoenix1
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 784



View Profile
June 04, 2015, 01:21:56 AM
 #25443


What am I missing here?

Its pretty disappointing really, in attacking the anonymous nature of Monero, most people inadvertently revel their subconscious backing of TPTB agendas, it just confirm that Bitcoin is not what I was waiting for.

Not at all. There is so much angst in this commnuity that innocent questions cannot be asked. I am not attacking Monero, I am inquiring about it, and how it can defend against TPTB's agendas

"Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves"  - Confucius (China 551BC-479 BC)
TPTB_need_war
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 420


View Profile
June 04, 2015, 01:24:55 AM
 #25444

I believe either the anonymous coin needs to be truly done and able to run decentralized on auto-pilot, or the lead devs need to be anonymous so they can avoid prosecution. The prosecution of cryptographers has begun.

Note Monero has the same problems with centralization as Bitcoin. Thus it is not done.

phoenix1
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 784



View Profile
June 04, 2015, 01:27:08 AM
 #25445

What am I missing here?

I agree with your points about open-source. His point I think is that if the leaders are taken down and the coin needs further leadership, it might be co-opted by changes from newly inserted lead devs.

The underlying point is that coins aren't truly decentralized because users are dumb and rely on lead devs to the do the right decisions.

lol thats always a danger, I agree with him them.

Yes, that is what I am pointing at. Because I believe that the devs of any truly anon coin will be considered 'enemies of the state' in the world that we live in. Unless they 'co-operate' ...

Its fine when the mkt caps are low, but if/when they become significant, I do not see how they will not become a prime target on the radar, with all the bullshit  and lies that comes with that

"Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves"  - Confucius (China 551BC-479 BC)
kazuki49
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 350



View Profile
June 04, 2015, 01:29:01 AM
 #25446

What am I missing here?

I agree with your points about open-source. His point I think is that if the leaders are taken down and the coin needs further leadership, it might be co-opted by changes from newly inserted lead devs.

The underlying point is that coins aren't truly decentralized because users are dumb and rely on lead devs to the do the right decisions.

lol thats always a danger, I agree with him them.

Yes, that is what I am pointing at. Because I believe that the devs of any truly anon coin will be considered 'enemies of the state' in the world that we live in. Unless they 'co-operate' ...

Its fine when the mkt caps are low, but if/when they become significant, I do not see how they will not become a prime target on the radar, with all the bullshit  and lies that comes with that

Yeah this chapter is yet to be written, thats what I meant with Bitcoin is not the one we are really looking for because it didn't incited these responses (by contrary the gov and banking system (wall st) are happily embracing it! lol)
smooth
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246



View Profile
June 04, 2015, 01:29:09 AM
 #25447


<snip>

i smell Monero all over him.

Ok, as you mention it, and this is not meant as an attack on Monero, what I really don't understand is how a truly anonymous coin can survive, regardless of the tech, when the lead developers are public figures (eg Smooth, who was extremely helpful when I asked about the 21inc stuff) and they have a very public 'castle' as the home of one of their lead promoters (Risto).
How does that work if/when  the SHTF ??
Honestly, I have nothing against Monero, but I can't wrap my head around how something that TPTB will obviously fight against can flourish with these criteria. $5 wrench anyone ??

Please enlighten me. I say this in a truly non-confrontational manner - I am truly confused

What do you think the developers and promoters can actually do to stop it, even when/if the $5 wrench is applied?

It's an open source project, the code is "out there."

Worst case I suppose is some sort of malicious/coerced code changes to introduce a back door, of the sort that some of the most paranoid attribute to Gavin (I don't). But those are going to be public, and the code is sufficiently well organized that nefarious changes to the "juicy" stuff would be pretty darn obvious.

What am I missing here?

That is exactly what I am asking about. IMO that is not unlikely to occur in the event of significant traction and non-co-operation with TPTB. What happens to Monero in that scenario?

Same thing that happens to anything else with back doors in it. It's back doored.

What protection do we have against this for any technology of any type, at any time?

I think open source (including the possibly of forking if the current developers go off the rails, voluntarily or otherwise) is the best chance we've got. If you know of something better, please tell.


phoenix1
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 784



View Profile
June 04, 2015, 01:30:16 AM
 #25448

I believe either the anonymous coin needs to be truly done and able to run decentralized on auto-pilot, or the lead devs need to be anonymous so they can avoid prosecution. The prosecution of cryptographers has begun.

Note Monero has the same problems with centralization as Bitcoin. Thus it is not done.

^^this

It's all really fucking smart stuff ( and it is -  I am in no way intending to patronise) until it becomes big enough that 'someone' decides it needs 'attention'

"Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves"  - Confucius (China 551BC-479 BC)
smooth
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246



View Profile
June 04, 2015, 01:33:50 AM
 #25449

The point is that coins aren't really done and on auto-pilot. They require ongoing upkeep from lead devs.

This is a good point, and part of why I consider all current crypto coins to be not ready for prime time. When something is truly on permanent auto-pilot then we can accept it is a working decentralized system.

MP's point about Bitcoin is, I think, that it should simply never be hard forked. If it fails, it fails, and perhaps is replaced by something better. But the idea of any developers having that kind of power is a fundamental failure of the concept. It's worth considering.

kazuki49
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 350



View Profile
June 04, 2015, 01:36:29 AM
 #25450

The point is that coins aren't really done and on auto-pilot. They require ongoing upkeep from lead devs.

This is a good point, and part of why I consider all current crypto coins to be not ready for prime time. When something is truly on permanent auto-pilot then we can accept it is a working decentralized system.

MP's point about Bitcoin is, I think, that it should simply never be hard forked. If it fails, it fails, and perhaps is replaced by something better. But the idea of any developers having that kind of power is a fundamental failure of the concept. It's worth considering.



I like his views, more and more I see MP for what he truly show he is, a true bitcoiner. I believe the same towards Monero.
phoenix1
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 784



View Profile
June 04, 2015, 01:38:51 AM
 #25451


<snip>

i smell Monero all over him.

Ok, as you mention it, and this is not meant as an attack on Monero, what I really don't understand is how a truly anonymous coin can survive, regardless of the tech, when the lead developers are public figures (eg Smooth, who was extremely helpful when I asked about the 21inc stuff) and they have a very public 'castle' as the home of one of their lead promoters (Risto).
How does that work if/when  the SHTF ??
Honestly, I have nothing against Monero, but I can't wrap my head around how something that TPTB will obviously fight against can flourish with these criteria. $5 wrench anyone ??

Please enlighten me. I say this in a truly non-confrontational manner - I am truly confused

What do you think the developers and promoters can actually do to stop it, even when/if the $5 wrench is applied?

It's an open source project, the code is "out there."

Worst case I suppose is some sort of malicious/coerced code changes to introduce a back door, of the sort that some of the most paranoid attribute to Gavin (I don't). But those are going to be public, and the code is sufficiently well organized that nefarious changes to the "juicy" stuff would be pretty darn obvious.

What am I missing here?

That is exactly what I am asking about. IMO that is not unlikely to occur in the event of significant traction and non-co-operation with TPTB. What happens to Monero in that scenario?

Same thing that happens to anything else with back doors in it. It's back doored.

What protection do we have against this for any technology of any type, at any time?

I think open source (including the possibly of forking if the current developers go off the rails, voluntarily or otherwise) is the best chance we've got. If you know of something better, please tell.


Smooth, I was seriously hoping that you were going to tell me that this was nothing to be concerned about. You seem like a 'stand-up' guy and you patiently answered all my questions about 21Inc the other day. I am just trying to get my head around what these technologies actually represent and what their limitations and risks are.  
 
No, I know of nothing better (other than anonymous devs in undisclosed locations perhaps)

"Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves"  - Confucius (China 551BC-479 BC)
marcus_of_augustus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2086



View Profile
June 04, 2015, 01:39:29 AM
 #25452

Quote
I think open source (including the possibly of forking if the current developers go off the rails, voluntarily or otherwise) is the best chance we've got. If you know of something better, please tell.

Open source with a verifiable chain of hashed code changes is better ... so that you can see who has tried to slip in the backdoors as "trivial bug fixes"

kazuki49
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 350



View Profile
June 04, 2015, 01:48:47 AM
 #25453

Quote
I think open source (including the possibly of forking if the current developers go off the rails, voluntarily or otherwise) is the best chance we've got. If you know of something better, please tell.

Open source with a verifiable chain of hashed code changes is better ... so that you can see who has tried to slip in the backdoors as "trivial bug fixes"

you mean like github? Smiley
smooth
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246



View Profile
June 04, 2015, 01:49:28 AM
 #25454

No, I know of nothing better (other than anonymous devs in undisclosed locations perhaps)

Fully anonymous devs with no reputation has its own set of problems. How do you know they aren't working for TPTB from the start?

I think you have to trust the source code, not the devs. If you aren't competent to trust the source code, develop a network of people you trust who are.


phoenix1
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 784



View Profile
June 04, 2015, 01:55:51 AM
 #25455

No, I know of nothing better (other than anonymous devs in undisclosed locations perhaps)

1)Fully anonymous devs with no reputation has its own set of problems. How do you know they aren't working for TPTB from the start?

2)I think you have to trust the source code, not the devs. If you aren't competent to trust the source code, develop a network of people you trust who are.


1) Totally agree
2) How does crypto go mainstream with this caveat?

Use as a currency is not so much affected but SOV is IMO. SOV requires that absolute trust, and if the power to hard fork exists, well, how can that trust co-exist ? Its just another form of centralisation with a different head


"Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves"  - Confucius (China 551BC-479 BC)
shmadz
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1428


@theshmadz


View Profile
June 04, 2015, 02:07:30 AM
 #25456

No, I know of nothing better (other than anonymous devs in undisclosed locations perhaps)

1)Fully anonymous devs with no reputation has its own set of problems. How do you know they aren't working for TPTB from the start?

2)I think you have to trust the source code, not the devs. If you aren't competent to trust the source code, develop a network of people you trust who are.


1) Totally agree
2) How does crypto go mainstream with this caveat?

Use as a currency is not so much affected but SOV is IMO. SOV requires that absolute trust, and if the power to hard fork exists, well, how can that trust co-exist ? Its just another form of centralisation with a different head

Eventually the code will get ironed out and some kind of industry standard will become accepted as the base protocol layer for internet money.

We're not there yet, not by a long shot.

What really surprises me, is the anger and spite coming from the Gavin supporters. The vitriol and vehemence with which they attack anyone who has concerns about 20 MB blocks is unsettling.

"You have no moral right to rule us, nor do you possess any methods of enforcement that we have reason to fear." - John Perry Barlow, 1996
phoenix1
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 784



View Profile
June 04, 2015, 02:18:54 AM
 #25457


Eventually the code will get ironed out and some kind of industry standard will become accepted as the base protocol layer for internet money.

We're not there yet, not by a long shot.

What really surprises me, is the anger and spite coming from the Gavin supporters. The vitriol and vehemence with which they attack anyone who has concerns about 20 MB blocks is unsettling.

That's just fine if 'internet money' is the goal (it is probably the most likely outcome regardless of the goal anyway). But it seems we have moved a long way from BTC as a stand-alone currency though with that statement.

I agree, the amount of vitriol in the debate about block size is very unsettling. It is putting personality back into the technology and damaging the idea of 'decentralised' and 'trustless' IMO

"Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves"  - Confucius (China 551BC-479 BC)
shmadz
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1428


@theshmadz


View Profile
June 04, 2015, 02:54:34 AM
 #25458


Eventually the code will get ironed out and some kind of industry standard will become accepted as the base protocol layer for internet money.

We're not there yet, not by a long shot.

What really surprises me, is the anger and spite coming from the Gavin supporters. The vitriol and vehemence with which they attack anyone who has concerns about 20 MB blocks is unsettling.

That's just fine if 'internet money' is the goal (it is probably the most likely outcome regardless of the goal anyway). But it seems we have moved a long way from BTC as a stand-alone currency though with that statement.

I agree, the amount of vitriol in the debate about block size is very unsettling. It is putting personality back into the technology and damaging the idea of 'decentralised' and 'trustless' IMO

I think it's all necessary. I mean, it's necessary for the system to fail before we can move forward. It's good to argue about this stuff now and experiment with different strategies, but if you really want to build an anti-fragile system, you're gonna have to let it go and watch it run it's course. If/when it fails or becomes co-opted you can hopefully analyze and determine where it went wrong, make changes, re-iterate and try again.

We're talking about building something that will disrupt a control system that's been dominant for thousands of years. I'd be astonished if it succeeded in only it's first iteration.

"You have no moral right to rule us, nor do you possess any methods of enforcement that we have reason to fear." - John Perry Barlow, 1996
phoenix1
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 784



View Profile
June 04, 2015, 02:57:17 AM
 #25459

Well put

"Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves"  - Confucius (China 551BC-479 BC)
TPTB_need_war
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 420


View Profile
June 04, 2015, 03:05:48 AM
 #25460

No, I know of nothing better (other than anonymous devs in undisclosed locations perhaps)

Fully anonymous devs with no reputation has its own set of problems. How do you know they aren't working for TPTB from the start?

How do we know that named devs aren't working for TPTB? I am nearly sure Gavin is (unwittingly or consciously makes no difference really, he is pragmatic).

I think you have to trust the source code, not the devs. If you aren't competent to trust the source code, develop a network of people you trust who are.

That pyramidal network and inertia means we end up entrusting the lead devs based on their past performance, i.e. the source code and market success.

You have implicitly made the case that anonymous lead devs are better than named lead devs.

Pages: « 1 ... 1223 1224 1225 1226 1227 1228 1229 1230 1231 1232 1233 1234 1235 1236 1237 1238 1239 1240 1241 1242 1243 1244 1245 1246 1247 1248 1249 1250 1251 1252 1253 1254 1255 1256 1257 1258 1259 1260 1261 1262 1263 1264 1265 1266 1267 1268 1269 1270 1271 1272 [1273] 1274 1275 1276 1277 1278 1279 1280 1281 1282 1283 1284 1285 1286 1287 1288 1289 1290 1291 1292 1293 1294 1295 1296 1297 1298 1299 1300 1301 1302 1303 1304 1305 1306 1307 1308 1309 1310 1311 1312 1313 1314 1315 1316 1317 1318 1319 1320 1321 1322 1323 ... 1560 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!