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Poll
Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1803783 times)
cypherdoc
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June 02, 2015, 11:17:06 PM
 #25321

I'm working for Nick Szabo.

Quote
Szatoshi will back Back and Maxwell.

enough with the hints, spill the beans please.

The beans were spilled a long time ago, but most people (including StarbucksDoc apparently) weren't paying attention:

Quote
The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  -David Chaum 1996

i also like iCELatte.  has a nice ring to it.
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cypherdoc
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June 02, 2015, 11:32:27 PM
 #25322

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=287.msg8810#msg8810
kazuki49
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June 02, 2015, 11:35:13 PM
 #25323

Gavin's strength is his maturity and calm demeanor, imo.  he'll win if it comes down to a battle.

Nope.  Szatoshi will back Back and Maxwell.  The cypherpunks will stick together (or hang separately).

You should change your handle to 'FrappuccinoDoc.'   Grin

Bitcoin XT is a poison pill for all the newbs and unwary, certain bug fix commits that went into Core have already been omitted. Both Hearn and Andresen have been covertly anti-privacy from day zero, paying it only lip service when pressed. Don't trust it or them. Not to mention it is poorly maintained and totally untested. I can't believe I'm reading such a mad approach being championed on these pages ... it's like a twilight zone episode wtf are you people thinking !!! following Pied Pipers now?

Not only that friend, what else are they planing to change down the line? Like I said many moons ago, they will try change the emission and they will start making Bitcoin permanently inflationary, not that I'm against the model, I like Monero exactly because the disinflation but it is a severe rupture of Bitcoin's trust and social contract and all started with the project being hijacked into this obscure XT fork.

Quote
Neither me nor Gavin believe a fee market will work as a substitute for the inflation subsidy. It just doesn’t seem to work, economically.

https://medium.com/@octskyward/crash-landing-f5cc19908e32

Who said that? You guessed right, Gavin's vice-fuhrer.
Adrian-x
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June 03, 2015, 12:33:52 AM
 #25324

Gavin's strength is his maturity and calm demeanor, imo.  he'll win if it comes down to a battle.

Nope.  Szatoshi will back Back and Maxwell.  The cypherpunks will stick together (or hang separately).

You should change your handle to 'FrappuccinoDoc.'   Grin

Bitcoin XT is a poison pill for all the newbs and unwary, certain bug fix commits that went into Core have already been omitted. Both Hearn and Andresen have been covertly anti-privacy from day zero, paying it only lip service when pressed. Don't trust it or them. Not to mention it is poorly maintained and totally untested. I can't believe I'm reading such a mad approach being championed on these pages ... it's like a twilight zone episode wtf are you people thinking !!! following Pied Pipers now?

Not only that friend, what else are they planing to change down the line? Like I said many moons ago, they will try change the emission and they will start making Bitcoin permanently inflationary, not that I'm against the model, I like Monero exactly because the disinflation but it is a severe rupture of Bitcoin's trust and social contract and all started with the project being hijacked into this obscure XT fork.

Quote
Neither me nor Gavin believe a fee market will work as a substitute for the inflation subsidy. It just doesn’t seem to work, economically.

https://medium.com/@octskyward/crash-landing-f5cc19908e32

Who said that? You guessed right, Gavin's vice-fuhrer.

if they get there way, they wont have any power to change things it will be a democracy of users who decide, luckily Monero doesn't have a nullc yet. 

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
justusranvier
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June 03, 2015, 12:44:48 AM
 #25325

Not only that friend, what else are they planing to change down the line? Like I said many moons ago, they will try change the emission and they will start making Bitcoin permanently inflationary, not that I'm against the model, I like Monero exactly because the disinflation but it is a severe rupture of Bitcoin's trust and social contract and all started with the project being hijacked into this obscure XT fork.
If they try to make a change like that, users will migrate away from their fork just as easy as they migrated to it.

In the end, the developers don't actually have any power - they can only product the software which users want or refrain from doing so.
rocks
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June 03, 2015, 12:51:25 AM
 #25326

One option is to start with a move towards adoption of multiple implementations before making the "spec". If Bitcoin XT and btcd both gained enough adoption vs. the Satoshi client that all three were below 50% of the network, then we would now have a situation where a bug in the Satoshi client was no longer the spec, and the Satoshi client would have to quickly bug fix itself to adhear to the XT and btcd majority (and same for XT and btcd).

This situation would then force the drafting of a real specification. With one dominate implementation the need for a spec is diminished. But with several implementations the need for them to draft what is agreed becomes quite strong.
Imagine if Bitcoin Core/XT, btcd, libbitcoin, BitcoinJ, Toshi, etc. all got together to make sure there was a common test suite that was a strict superset of all the relevant unit tests in each codebase.

The next step would be for each implementation to make sure to add any missing consensus-related tests to their own repositories. Repeat the process as necessary.

After all that was done, you could use the test suites as the basis of a spec.

Organizing that is something useful that Bitcoin Foundation could have done, instead of... whatever it was they did.

Start spec sheet drafting through the process of developing a common testing framework for multiple separate implementations. That's interesting and could practically work.
kazuki49
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June 03, 2015, 12:52:40 AM
 #25327

Not only that friend, what else are they planing to change down the line? Like I said many moons ago, they will try change the emission and they will start making Bitcoin permanently inflationary, not that I'm against the model, I like Monero exactly because the disinflation but it is a severe rupture of Bitcoin's trust and social contract and all started with the project being hijacked into this obscure XT fork.
If they try to make a change like that, users will migrate away from their fork just as easy as they migrated to it.

In the end, the developers don't actually have any power - they can only product the software which users want or refrain from doing so.

I would have thought the same until his last statement, you are clearly ignoring the power he is displaying to hold as he forces his plan with help of the billionaire backed VC companies so if you want to buy Bitcoin on exchange X, you'll need to install his fork.
Adrian-x
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June 03, 2015, 12:53:10 AM
 #25328

Not only that friend, what else are they planing to change down the line? Like I said many moons ago, they will try change the emission and they will start making Bitcoin permanently inflationary, not that I'm against the model, I like Monero exactly because the disinflation but it is a severe rupture of Bitcoin's trust and social contract and all started with the project being hijacked into this obscure XT fork.
If they try to make a change like that, users will migrate away from their fork just as easy as they migrated to it.

In the end, the developers don't actually have any power - they can only product the software which users want or refrain from doing so.

I agree, it will be easier for users to switch next time, this time is the hard one, power hungry developers are going to defend their castle.  

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
Adrian-x
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June 03, 2015, 12:59:51 AM
 #25329

Not only that friend, what else are they planing to change down the line? Like I said many moons ago, they will try change the emission and they will start making Bitcoin permanently inflationary, not that I'm against the model, I like Monero exactly because the disinflation but it is a severe rupture of Bitcoin's trust and social contract and all started with the project being hijacked into this obscure XT fork.
If they try to make a change like that, users will migrate away from their fork just as easy as they migrated to it.

In the end, the developers don't actually have any power - they can only product the software which users want or refrain from doing so.

I would have thought the same until his last statement, you are clearly ignoring the power he is displaying to hold as he forces his plan with help of the billionaire backed VC companies so if you want to buy Bitcoin on exchange X, you'll need to install his fork.

I think you need to consider who the billionaire backed VC companies are backing. we don't know how this turns out, but your concerns are valid, i just don't know if you are directing them towards the correct developers.

if this is a 1 way path why do you think so, I agree with justusranvier, you just switch back if they move in the wrong direction how do you see it?

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
kazuki49
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June 03, 2015, 01:09:00 AM
 #25330

Not only that friend, what else are they planing to change down the line? Like I said many moons ago, they will try change the emission and they will start making Bitcoin permanently inflationary, not that I'm against the model, I like Monero exactly because the disinflation but it is a severe rupture of Bitcoin's trust and social contract and all started with the project being hijacked into this obscure XT fork.
If they try to make a change like that, users will migrate away from their fork just as easy as they migrated to it.

In the end, the developers don't actually have any power - they can only product the software which users want or refrain from doing so.

I would have thought the same until his last statement, you are clearly ignoring the power he is displaying to hold as he forces his plan with help of the billionaire backed VC companies so if you want to buy Bitcoin on exchange X, you'll need to install his fork.

I think you need to consider who the billionaire backed VC companies are backing. we don't know how this turns out, but your concerns are valid, i just don't know if you are directing them towards the correct developers.

if this is a 1 way path why do you think so, I agree with justusranvier, you just switch back if they move in the wrong direction how do you see it?

Masses are easily influenced, you would think most people think like you, there is no "going back" from this, the bitcoin eco-system is already centralized in few companies backed by same hands, what I see is a move to put the bitcoin network effect in great peril if this fork happens, because the way bitcoin and decentralized crypto works, only when theres absolute consensus should a move like that happen. What I believe to be the hidden intention behind this fork is to open the bitcoin network to new regulatory frameworks that will be born from the centralized nature of mining and the inherent traceability and likability of the protocol, and establishing a precedent of strong-arming forks.

If you can't see the messages from the same agents pointing towards this scenario, well, you are making a fool of yourself to the future community that will be studying Bitcoin-history http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/34161751/
smooth
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June 03, 2015, 01:09:43 AM
 #25331

Not only that friend, what else are they planing to change down the line? Like I said many moons ago, they will try change the emission and they will start making Bitcoin permanently inflationary, not that I'm against the model, I like Monero exactly because the disinflation but it is a severe rupture of Bitcoin's trust and social contract and all started with the project being hijacked into this obscure XT fork.
If they try to make a change like that, users will migrate away from their fork just as easy as they migrated to it.

In the end, the developers don't actually have any power - they can only product the software which users want or refrain from doing so.

That's an unrealistic view of human nature. Many, possibly most, users are too busy, not knowledgable enough, and/or too apathetic to form and act on their own opinion. They will support whatever the developers propose, as long as it isn't outrageous. That gives the developers an enormous amount of power, because they get to influence the votes of the abstaining users, which in many cases will by itself represent a majority.
kazuki49
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June 03, 2015, 01:11:42 AM
 #25332

Not only that friend, what else are they planing to change down the line? Like I said many moons ago, they will try change the emission and they will start making Bitcoin permanently inflationary, not that I'm against the model, I like Monero exactly because the disinflation but it is a severe rupture of Bitcoin's trust and social contract and all started with the project being hijacked into this obscure XT fork.
If they try to make a change like that, users will migrate away from their fork just as easy as they migrated to it.

In the end, the developers don't actually have any power - they can only product the software which users want or refrain from doing so.

That's an unrealistic view of human nature. Many, possibly most, users are too busy, not knowledgable enough, and/or too apathetic to form and act on their own opinion. They will support whatever the developers propose, as long as it isn't outrageous. That gives the developers an enormous amount of power, because they get to influence the votes of the abstaining users, which in many cases will by itself represent a majority.

based smooth! Thats what I mean, I feel good knowing Monero is in good and self-aware leadership hands.
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June 03, 2015, 01:13:08 AM
 #25333

One option is to start with a move towards adoption of multiple implementations before making the "spec". If Bitcoin XT and btcd both gained enough adoption vs. the Satoshi client that all three were below 50% of the network, then we would now have a situation where a bug in the Satoshi client was no longer the spec, and the Satoshi client would have to quickly bug fix itself to adhear to the XT and btcd majority (and same for XT and btcd).

This situation would then force the drafting of a real specification. With one dominate implementation the need for a spec is diminished. But with several implementations the need for them to draft what is agreed becomes quite strong.

Imagine if Bitcoin Core/XT, btcd, libbitcoin, BitcoinJ, Toshi, etc. all got together to make sure there was a common test suite that was a strict superset of all the relevant unit tests in each codebase.

The next step would be for each implementation to make sure to add any missing consensus-related tests to their own repositories. Repeat the process as necessary.

After all that was done, you could use the test suites as the basis of a spec.

Organizing that is something useful that Bitcoin Foundation could have done, instead of... whatever it was they did.

If bctd is the best and most well documented code that mysterious group of highly funded spooky dudes who nobody knows can pump out then it would be interesting to fork it as the basis for a viable project on one of the many forks that the Bitcoin blockchain is going to blossom into.  I'd use it (as long as I can compile it and compile the compilers that compile it.)

At this point I have little interest in a common spec and test cases and such.  We're past the phase where multiple implementations are very valuable, and may be into the phase where the opposite is true and makes no logical sense anyway.


explorer
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June 03, 2015, 01:14:10 AM
 #25334

Not only that friend, what else are they planing to change down the line? Like I said many moons ago, they will try change the emission and they will start making Bitcoin permanently inflationary, not that I'm against the model, I like Monero exactly because the disinflation but it is a severe rupture of Bitcoin's trust and social contract and all started with the project being hijacked into this obscure XT fork.
If they try to make a change like that, users will migrate away from their fork just as easy as they migrated to it.

In the end, the developers don't actually have any power - they can only product the software which users want or refrain from doing so.

People are sheep that will go with the loudest/best advertising, regardless of benefit/detriment.   Just look at every other system in existence. 
justusranvier
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June 03, 2015, 01:16:41 AM
 #25335

Not only that friend, what else are they planing to change down the line? Like I said many moons ago, they will try change the emission and they will start making Bitcoin permanently inflationary, not that I'm against the model, I like Monero exactly because the disinflation but it is a severe rupture of Bitcoin's trust and social contract and all started with the project being hijacked into this obscure XT fork.
If they try to make a change like that, users will migrate away from their fork just as easy as they migrated to it.

In the end, the developers don't actually have any power - they can only product the software which users want or refrain from doing so.

I would have thought the same until his last statement, you are clearly ignoring the power he is displaying to hold as he forces his plan with help of the billionaire backed VC companies so if you want to buy Bitcoin on exchange X, you'll need to install his fork.

I think you need to consider who the billionaire backed VC companies are backing. we don't know how this turns out, but your concerns are valid, i just don't know if you are directing them towards the correct developers.

if this is a 1 way path why do you think so, I agree with justusranvier, you just switch back if they move in the wrong direction how do you see it?

Masses are easily influenced, you would think most people think like you, there is no "going back" from this, the bitcoin eco-system is already centralized in few companies backed by same hands, what I see is a move to put the bitcoin network effect in great peril if this fork happens, because the way bitcoin and decentralized crypto works, only when theres absolute consensus should a move like that happen. What I believe to be the hidden intention behind this fork is to open the bitcoin network to new regulatory frameworks that will be born from the centralized nature of mining and the inherent traceability and likability of the protocol, and establishing a precedent of strong-arming forks.

If you can't see the messages from the same agents pointing towards this scenario, well, you are making a fool of yourself to the future community that will be studying Bitcoin-history http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/34161751/
So you're saying we should address the implementation monoculture problem?
vokain
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June 03, 2015, 01:18:16 AM
 #25336

Not only that friend, what else are they planing to change down the line? Like I said many moons ago, they will try change the emission and they will start making Bitcoin permanently inflationary, not that I'm against the model, I like Monero exactly because the disinflation but it is a severe rupture of Bitcoin's trust and social contract and all started with the project being hijacked into this obscure XT fork.
If they try to make a change like that, users will migrate away from their fork just as easy as they migrated to it.

In the end, the developers don't actually have any power - they can only product the software which users want or refrain from doing so.

People are sheep that will go with the loudest/best advertising, regardless of benefit/detriment.   Just look at every other system in existence.  

When the culture of a collective emphasizes the theory and practice of truth as a core tenet, then their loudest/best advertising may very well converge with the truth.

...مكتوب
Escape the plutocrats’ zanpakutō, Flower in the Mirror, Moon on the Water: brave “the ascent which is rough and steep” (Plato).
TPTB_need_war
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June 03, 2015, 01:20:44 AM
 #25337

Our problem however, is that most humans are not ready to transition to the Knowledge Age work and they will continue to demand debt and Industrial Age jobs (or the government to subsidize failure to obtain such a job).

i foresee a leveling out of resources and wealth due to the transparency of information access facilitated by the Internet.  this can't be stopped despite the state's resistance.

The only way we cross the chasm without falling into an totalitarian abyss along the way, is a newly designed crypto-currency for the fledgling Knowledge Age that can resist attack by the State because the People implicitly (due to their self-interest in debt and subsidies) demand the State to maintain a monopoly on force.

i agree and think Bitcoin is it.


Dont you think there's something off, as in your brain,  in you continually berating me about thousands of years of sheeples being manipulated, no chance that Bitcoin can change anything, yet you coming in here and telling us that for $10000 you will let us in on your altcoin that WILL change everything?

When debate on the merits has been conceded, the loser often resorts to character assassination.

Bitcoin will surely change some things, and I assert not all for the better. I never claimed Bitcoin was a /dev/null event and in fact argued that it is a monumental event.

I doubt anything I or others might attempt would change everything. Experiments are experiments. And I have no delusion about changing everything. I might hope to make some positive contribution if after more thought it is concluded that moving forward is viable and wise.

I support Bitcoin because for every 100 masses we introduce to crypto-currency, maybe 1 will awaken and be an important ally. I have repeatedly said I support spreading Bitcoin because it adds to the capital base (remember capital is not money, but the productive capacity).

I view Bitcoin as the scattershot coin (assuming iCe et al lose[1]). I entertain the hope and ideas about potential anonymity and decentralized focused altcoin(s) that serve vertical (hopefully horizontal growth) markets.

In short, "you can't do just one thing" and this applies to anything TPTB create as well. There is always a reactive force and seepage.

[1] I have entertained the thought that Coinbase, Paypal, etc might prefer a 1MB limit because it would push transactions to offchain. But I doubt that is their overriding calculus.


Edit: the many readers I and others have been able to touch (including our dialogue here) is one of the seepage effects Bitcoin is causing. I do not assert that Bitcoin has no positive effects. I've been derogatory on the overriding effect of Bitcoin on the masses. You are correct to call me out and get me to clarify this point.

what a bunch of dissembling, conflicted, and illogical bullshit.


Apparently the concept is too complex for your mind.

It is quite simple actually.

The internet and Bitcoin are platforms for spreading information, but the masses are not aligned to global monetary optimization because their daily priorities are else where. Thus they easily throw their support to the wrong "solutions", e.g. the massive outpouring of emotions and support for FCC regulation of Net Neutrality (which the mass media propaganda fed to the idealistic masses).

And Bitcoin doesn't have the design which resists on its own. It requires mass diligence.

Very simple. Don't know why you can't wrap your mind around it.

TPTB_need_war
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June 03, 2015, 01:28:05 AM
 #25338

His IQ is probably higher than either of ours...

It appears to be quite high. I have caught him in a logic error at least once though. He apparently didn't like it much that I publicly pointed it out in these forums. I don't have time to go digging for it.

Note he PM'ed first before I ever knew of him in 2013. Coincidentally someone else prominent here PM'ed me just after that warning me about him.

I don't really know all about what is going on behind the scenes and I don't really care to know. Head in the sand and code. Let the chips fall where they will...

Remember the time he clowned the SEC?  Hysterical.

I do. That might have been the thread I am referring to above.



well, the half woman half man dude is definitely more out there

i guess i could learn to admire a transsex.

I thought you were referring to Mark Karpeles until I read the qualifier "between the 3".

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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.


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June 03, 2015, 01:41:52 AM
 #25339

luckily Monero doesn't have a nullc yet. 

Are you kidding?  A crypto rock star like gmaxwell would be a stellar addition to XMR's core team.  The price would double in an hour.

I'd rather he stay with Bitcoin to help balance/cancel out nefarious MBA/VC/frat boy influence, but if the Gavinistas run him off...  Cool

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
kazuki49
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June 03, 2015, 01:44:13 AM
 #25340

Not only that friend, what else are they planing to change down the line? Like I said many moons ago, they will try change the emission and they will start making Bitcoin permanently inflationary, not that I'm against the model, I like Monero exactly because the disinflation but it is a severe rupture of Bitcoin's trust and social contract and all started with the project being hijacked into this obscure XT fork.
If they try to make a change like that, users will migrate away from their fork just as easy as they migrated to it.

In the end, the developers don't actually have any power - they can only product the software which users want or refrain from doing so.

I would have thought the same until his last statement, you are clearly ignoring the power he is displaying to hold as he forces his plan with help of the billionaire backed VC companies so if you want to buy Bitcoin on exchange X, you'll need to install his fork.

I think you need to consider who the billionaire backed VC companies are backing. we don't know how this turns out, but your concerns are valid, i just don't know if you are directing them towards the correct developers.

if this is a 1 way path why do you think so, I agree with justusranvier, you just switch back if they move in the wrong direction how do you see it?

Masses are easily influenced, you would think most people think like you, there is no "going back" from this, the bitcoin eco-system is already centralized in few companies backed by same hands, what I see is a move to put the bitcoin network effect in great peril if this fork happens, because the way bitcoin and decentralized crypto works, only when theres absolute consensus should a move like that happen. What I believe to be the hidden intention behind this fork is to open the bitcoin network to new regulatory frameworks that will be born from the centralized nature of mining and the inherent traceability and likability of the protocol, and establishing a precedent of strong-arming forks.

If you can't see the messages from the same agents pointing towards this scenario, well, you are making a fool of yourself to the future community that will be studying Bitcoin-history http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/34161751/
So you're saying we should address the implementation monoculture problem?

wtf this means? Its very simple to understand why a fork without 90% consensus will wreak havoc, specially with the ones like MP opposing it, its like committing suicide, maybe the Bitcoin community already in their subconsciousness realized Bitcoin is a danger to mankind with its public blockchain and the hive mind decided to abort it from within.
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