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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2010419 times)
iCEBREAKER
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May 28, 2015, 05:25:33 AM
 #24901

Mircea and his #BTC-assets brigade has already declared 20mb blocks to be an attack on Bitcoin, so some degree of fireworks/popcorn/tears/LULZ/drama are guaranteed.

Forcing txn fees higher to contain the blockchain bloat would also implode the BTC price because you will destroy the ideological propaganda that caused people to predict much higher BTC prices due to network effects.

You would essentially be relegating Bitcoin to a hobbiest experiment on the virtues of small currencies used by a fraction of the population with that population sparsely distributed over the globe.

This is correct. Can't believe people can't see this. Or  maybe they do but don't care.

The only thing which causes people to infer rising BTC prices in the future is a rising BTC price in the present.  99.99999% of people don't give even a whiff of a fart of a tiny little shit about the "network effect" even assuming they've heard of it (which they haven't).

Until the UXTO set is able to be pruned and/or otherwise optimized for (sub)linear growth, your starry-eyed fantasies about billions of direct, Metcalfe-empowering BTC users are dead.

Fortunately, the network effect still works when billions of people indirectly use BTC via altcoins, sidechains, and institutions kept honest by realtime auditing.

Nobody (except possibly Gavin-the-clod) is powerful enough to "relegate Bitcoin to a hobbiest experiment."  That ship has sailed; that horse is out the barn, that toothpaste is out the tube; that goose is cooked.  The Bitcoin cat is out of the bag, and heaven help anyone who tries to put her back in it.   Grin

Your disturbing lack of faith in Bitcoin's antifragility, Gresham's Law, marginalism, and the invisible hand are noted.


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1511221238
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May 28, 2015, 05:27:23 AM
 #24902

In Marketing 101, the chicken-and-egg problem is an example of what to NOT do.

Bitcoin already solved the chicken-and-egg problem.  Have you been in a coma since 2011, when Bitcoin obviously started rapidly taking over the world?   Grin

Because the TPTB used their mainstream media to promote it. Not because as you asserted that eventually users learn to become ideological after the discovery and learning about the evils of fiat.

You are delusional if you assert you are where you are today without the mainstream media and the elite promoting Bitcoin (in their usual Good Cop, Bad Cop hegelian methodology where they both restrict and promote simultaneously as they do for drugs).

You are a noob and so can be forgiven/educated on what actually happened:

E-cash had a widespread ideological following since the days of William Gibson and Extropy magazine (1990s).  Unnoticed, it gestated in the cypherpunk lists...

Decades later, Bitcoin first gained mainstream exposure via the Streisand Effect, when some grandstanding banker-whore Senator (Schumer) held a press conference where his intern or grandson loaded Silk Road up on a laptop to give the press some Shock Horror jollies.

Silk Road worked splendidly as an actual Amazon for drugs, to the delight of thousands of 20-30 somethings who ignore any MSM beyond Daily Show, Gawker, and Conde Naste organs like Reddit and Wired (who mostly regurgitated FUD along the lines of 'Is Bitcoin a Ponzi Scheme for Terrorists?')

TPTB and their VC flunkies came late to the party.  As did you.  It was much cooler before all the lamers showed up...   Tongue

Did you make any point? Seems like you just affirmed what I asserted. Bitcoin was an obscure hobbiest nothing until the MSM started covering it.

P.S. I did come late. I glanced at the Bitgold essay circa 2008 or 2009 but didn't really digest it deeply, and was thinking a lot about how to make sound money decentralized in that period from 2008 to 2011. But I was too distracted to pay close attention to Bitcoin. By the time the pizza was purchased for 10,000 BTC, I had fallen into Multiple Sclerosis and other personal issues that were consuming me. I didn't come to this forum and look deeply into Bitcoin until late 2012 and early 2013 when rpietila had pinged me once or thrice. I was very preoccupied as I was in the ER and ICU with acute peptic ulcer in May 2012 (that was leaking acid into my body) and my M.S. went bezerk after the 3 weeks of massive antibiotic doses. I had severe gastronomicalgastrointestinal issues manifesting towards end of 2011. Around 2010 is when my feet started swelling up to grapefruits. There were other personal issues.

My point is had my mental focus been present, I would not likely have been late. You will end up eating that "noob" comment recycled out of your ass over and over.

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May 28, 2015, 05:29:16 AM
 #24903

The only thing which causes people to infer rising BTC prices in the future is a rising BTC price in the present.

Ahem.

Does this guy live in the same world we live in? Has he looked at the BTC chart since 2013?

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May 28, 2015, 05:35:39 AM
 #24904

Fortunately, the network effect still works when billions of people indirectly use BTC via altcoins, sidechains...

I seem to rebut people before they writeread:

...
The sidechains will be Coinbase, Circle, Paypal, etc.. and they will have the most users. So go ahead and fork away and see how many people follow you. The richest 0.1% are onboard the NWO plan and will prefer to monopolize the MSM fork than to defect to your ideological, hobbiest store-of-value. Who are your allies? Where is your market?

...
Here we go again. I wrote upthread that you just push the scaling problem onto sidechains, which means under the currently known best crypto-currencies designs they fail to remain decentralized also.

You've got to address the fundamental scaling issue. Bitcoin's design is fundamentally flawed, if decentralization (and scaling) was the goal.

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May 28, 2015, 05:42:37 AM
 #24905

Gresham's Law

It says that bad money drives good money out-of-circulation.

You are advocating we drive BTC out-of-circulation and make it another gold. And inferior form of gold because it has third party risk.

Crypto-currency's strength was never to be an inexorable store-of-value (Satoshi did hook the goldbugs with his mention of inflationless future). It was always about a (speculation on the) synergy of decentralization and commerce being uninhibited (permission-less) and thus freed to grow faster.

I want to fulfill that goal. Bitcoin is about fulfilling the NWO goal (or as you wish dying on the vine as some bastardized gold so you can assert your early adopter ego).

Edit: I am not visualizing Bitcoin as the one-world reserve currency, which will rather be a political power sharing compromise amongst nations with a monetary reset. I see Bitcoin being used to spread digital currency to the masses and force traditional banking and governments into electronic currency (which coincides with the War on Cash). Bitcoin is a clever Trojan horse created and planted by the DEEP STATE to force the move away from cash. They planned this out well. I am impressed.

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May 28, 2015, 05:58:58 AM
 #24906

I believe the block size limit issue is getting critical.  You guys should check out Reggie Middleton's Veritaseum.  Quoting:

thank god he renamed from "ultracoin".

Pretty bold claims from Middleton, but I have tried it and it works, at least in a beta phase, not vapor phase or proof of concept phase, but beta phase.  You can trade all tickers that Cypherdoc mentions on here. 

I still don't understand how the tickers are fed into veritaseum to settle the bets. Can you explain that?

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May 28, 2015, 06:11:59 AM
 #24907

Pretty bold claims from Middleton, but I have tried it and it works, at least in a beta phase, not vapor phase or proof of concept phase, but beta phase.  You can trade all tickers that Cypherdoc mentions on here.  

I still don't understand how the tickers are fed into veritaseum to settle the bets. Can you explain that?

Saying "it works" without understanding how it works is short-sighted.

Twice or thrice I tried to find technical documentation (wading through all the promotional crap) and was stifled, so I assumed it is centralized bullshit.

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May 28, 2015, 06:20:10 AM
 #24908

Pretty bold claims from Middleton, but I have tried it and it works, at least in a beta phase, not vapor phase or proof of concept phase, but beta phase.  You can trade all tickers that Cypherdoc mentions on here.  

I still don't understand how the tickers are fed into veritaseum to settle the bets. Can you explain that?

Saying "it works" without understanding how it works is short-sighted.

Twice or thrice I tried to find technical documentation (wading through all the promotional crap) and was stifled, so I assumed it is centralized bullshit.

That's my assumption, too... until it's explained how it works and it works in a way I can trust (which I doubt, but I've been wrong before).

If it's Reggie typing in 50000 tickers every hour then there might be no "counterparty risk", but there's plenty of other risk.

EDIT: I PMed him, maybe he'll show up here and explain. If not, it hardens my assumption.

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May 28, 2015, 06:22:04 AM
 #24909

Fortunately, the network effect still works when billions of people indirectly use BTC via altcoins, sidechains...

I seem to rebut people before they writeread:

...
The sidechains will be Coinbase, Circle, Paypal, etc.. and they will have the most users. So go ahead and fork away and see how many people follow you. The richest 0.1% are onboard the NWO plan and will prefer to monopolize the MSM fork than to defect to your ideological, hobbiest store-of-value. Who are your allies? Where is your market?

...

Bad etiquette to quote thyself, but I want to draw attention to the additional thought that upper 0.1% and the lower 50% (in the power-law distribution of wealth) are actually in bed together and synergistic (google Some Iron Laws of Political Economics).

We The Upper Middle Class Workers of The Knowledge Age have to go create the coin that serves our vocation which is virtual micropayment commerce. And it will need it to support strong anonymity, because we exist in defiance of that upper 0.1% and the lower 50% at this stage of the contagion/cancer.

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May 28, 2015, 06:25:14 AM
 #24910

If it's Reggie typing in 50000 tickers every hour ... there's plenty of other risk.

<joke>Even if discounting the Jack Daniels attack.</joke>

Edit: I gave up when I read the background of his CTO. Perhaps I am too presumptuous and I am open to clarification, but my limited exposure to the principals so far elicit in me the scent of greater-fool promoting, patent trolling, rent-seeking, top-down, proprietary lock-in backgrounds.

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May 28, 2015, 06:40:00 AM
 #24911

We get several of these a day now.  We would probably see >1mb if there were no limit.



This is the 1st I seen some transactions going almost to 1 mb.

Most are like 300 kb or less. but now just worries me, cause how are we going to resolve the whole memory issue.

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May 28, 2015, 06:56:56 AM
 #24912

I believe Armstrong is arguing implicitly that the low in gold and Bitcoin may come after 2015.75 with the mad stampede out of the Euro and emerging markets into the dollar as a safe haven and the spiral effect to cover the several $trillions in dollar shorts abroad:

http://armstrongeconomics.com/archives/30928

Quote
The definition I use for a bull market is something that rises in ALL currencies.

http://armstrongeconomics.com/archives/30932

Quote
Keep in mind that we may yet see a major rally in the dollar and that will help gold decline in dollars.

He wrote recently we could see reaction rally in gold (and BTC?) this summer.

I am contemplating if the bulk of the dollar rally will come suddenly (as it did for the Euro), then capital will shift/trade within dollar assets into 2017, e.g. a US stock bubble in 2017. In that case, perhaps the bottom for gold and BTC could be attained within months after 2015.75?

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May 28, 2015, 08:01:10 AM
 #24913

I had severe gastronomical issues manifesting towards end of 2011.

This must have been particularly hard for you to swallow.

I do not accept segwit outputs as payment, nor send them.
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May 28, 2015, 09:30:34 AM
 #24914

Bitcoin is not just for the rich, even when transaction capacity is severely limited. We will have off chain service companies to handle that. Here is how it could work:  A base equity capital. Let's say around 100 bitcoin to cover assets under management 1000 bitcoin. The board and the CEO is made responsible with all their assets (that has been the case in earlier times). Time deposits, let's say in general 3 years. You can pay immediately by transferring your deposits, but you can not immediately withdraw your bitcoins. Loans made to others also timed, say the same, 3 years. The institution keeps a sizeable reserve, let's say 30 %. This will probably be prudent, the market will decide. Due to fractional reserve banking, the money volume should therefore increase by about 3333 (the current system with zero reserve sometimes, would not be possible). There will be no deposit insurance and no bailouts. Sometimes such a bank will fail to pay back, with customers loosing money, and the market will have to keep the industry in check.

Such businesses can produce added value: Interest, loyalty function, price, speed, guarantees, insurance, cool factor, advertisements and so on. They are necessary as long as the blockchain can not serve all transactions. There is no point in working against the appearance of these services, they will exist if they are profitable, and they will expand the bitcoin volume in existence with debt.

The crucial difference is no government sponsored deposit insurance and bailouts. Therefore, it is not the same as the banking fraud going on now.




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May 28, 2015, 10:25:48 AM
 #24915

Pretty bold claims from Middleton, but I have tried it and it works, at least in a beta phase, not vapor phase or proof of concept phase, but beta phase.  You can trade all tickers that Cypherdoc mentions on here.  

I still don't understand how the tickers are fed into veritaseum to settle the bets. Can you explain that?

Saying "it works" without understanding how it works is short-sighted.

Twice or thrice I tried to find technical documentation (wading through all the promotional crap) and was stifled, so I assumed it is centralized bullshit.

That's my assumption, too... until it's explained how it works and it works in a way I can trust (which I doubt, but I've been wrong before).

If it's Reggie typing in 50000 tickers every hour then there might be no "counterparty risk", but there's plenty of other risk.

EDIT: I PMed him, maybe he'll show up here and explain. If not, it hardens my assumption.

It works from an end-user standpoint, which is more than I've seen from any other project.  Tickers prices are fed through an oracle, which is centralized.  Also, the code is not open source... yet, which i cant blame them for not wanting all their work to just be copied into another system.  In a nutshell, it appears to be blockchain.info 2.0.  The blockchain.info model has proven to work thus far with zero trust issues, but we will just have to wait for more info to become available. 

Counterfeit:  made in imitation of something else with intent to deceive:  merriam-webster
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May 28, 2015, 11:00:51 AM
 #24916

I believe the block size limit issue is getting critical.  You guys should check out Reggie Middleton's Veritaseum.  Quoting:

Quote
Veritaseum uses only bitcoin, and subsists completely on the bitcoin blockchain. It is the only bitcoin wallet system that can trade simple and complex value structures without using non-bitcoin tokens, alt coins, sidechains or alternative blockchains. It can trade the value of over 45,000 tickers in all asset classes, from major exchanges from all around the world. At it’s essence, Veritaseum is a hyper-intelligent Bitcoin wallet “system” that is able to create and interpret smart contracts through the blockchain. It coordinates with an Oracle to gain access to conventional, physical and legacy financial data and information and uses it to price, value, trade and settle OTC, P2P financial instruments - all in BTC.

Quote

One more in a long list of efforts built around getting a free ride on the protocol at the expense of others.  They should be being worried about it being ballooned, weakened, and ultimately controlled more than anyone unless they are running some sort of pump-n-dump scam platform or are as dumb as a box of rocks.

Whatever the case, this is a classic example of where a dedicated sidechain could shine.  Reggie and co can make their own determinations about how much engineering and transparency they want to pay for for their VeritaseumCoin sidechain based on the market demand in their segment.  They can also decide how much effort they should be putting into securing Bitcoin core, and I doubt that it would be less than it is today.

Actually, we have contributed to the bitcoin core. In the process of building our system, we found a bug or two. In addition, Veritaseum doesn't bloat the blockchain. Download the client and give it a try. It's a fully functional system and you can see that it runs cleanly.

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May 28, 2015, 11:04:54 AM
 #24917

I believe the block size limit issue is getting critical.  You guys should check out Reggie Middleton's Veritaseum.  Quoting:

I still don't understand how the tickers are fed into veritaseum to settle the bets. Can you explain that?


Our server acts as an Oracle feeding commodity ticker data (think Reuters, Google, Bloomberg) into the wallets to adjudicate P&L.

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May 28, 2015, 11:12:39 AM
 #24918

Pretty bold claims from Middleton, but I have tried it and it works, at least in a beta phase, not vapor phase or proof of concept phase, but beta phase.  You can trade all tickers that Cypherdoc mentions on here.  

I still don't understand how the tickers are fed into veritaseum to settle the bets. Can you explain that?

Saying "it works" without understanding how it works is short-sighted.

Twice or thrice I tried to find technical documentation (wading through all the promotional crap) and was stifled, so I assumed it is centralized bullshit.

That's not a fair presumption. Most tech dudes (and most people in general) use the financial system and have absolutely no idea how it works. Does that mean that your money doesn't spend? Veritaseum, from a capital perspective, is fully decentralized. It is the only automated system that I know of that is fully autonomous in that you keep your private keys private and on your client under your control. All transactions are peer to peer through the blockchain, and our server doesn't touch, house, hold, custody or control a single satoshi of your coin. Read http://veritaseum.com/index.php/homes/1-blog/128-will-new-vc-investment-trump-the-returns-of-the-early-movers-in-the-digital-currency-space-quite-possibly-let-me-show-you-how and http://veritaseum.com/index.php/homes/1-blog/94-bitcoin-1-0-vs-2-0-or-a-comparison-of-legacy-exchanges-veritaseum-s-ultracoin for the difference between centralized and decentralized systems.
As an aside, the vast majority of bitcoin traders don't seem to have a problem with centralized systems as they freely send their decentralized assets to fully centralized entities to house, trade and exchange. Just a little food for thought.

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May 28, 2015, 11:19:50 AM
 #24919

Pretty bold claims from Middleton, but I have tried it and it works, at least in a beta phase, not vapor phase or proof of concept phase, but beta phase.  You can trade all tickers that Cypherdoc mentions on here.  

I still don't understand how the tickers are fed into veritaseum to settle the bets. Can you explain that?

Saying "it works" without understanding how it works is short-sighted.

Twice or thrice I tried to find technical documentation (wading through all the promotional crap) and was stifled, so I assumed it is centralized bullshit.

That's my assumption, too... until it's explained how it works and it works in a way I can trust (which I doubt, but I've been wrong before).

If it's Reggie typing in 50000 tickers every hour then there might be no "counterparty risk", but there's plenty of other risk.

EDIT: I PMed him, maybe he'll show up here and explain. If not, it hardens my assumption.

See slide 14 here https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1UxB33wp1rCncBtPbuzQbkS1SZg_fjCTNMqu-wZGii-o/pub?start=true&loop=false&delayms=10000&slide=id.g7b8415063_38

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May 28, 2015, 11:41:34 AM
 #24920

Gresham's Law

It says that bad money drives good money out-of-circulation.

You are advocating we drive BTC out-of-circulation and make it another gold. And inferior form of gold because it has third party risk.

Crypto-currency's strength was never to be an inexorable store-of-value (Satoshi did hook the goldbugs with his mention of inflationless future). It was always about a (speculation on the) synergy of decentralization and commerce being uninhibited (permission-less) and thus freed to grow faster.

I want to fulfill that goal. Bitcoin is about fulfilling the NWO goal (or as you wish dying on the vine as some bastardized gold so you can assert your early adopter ego).

Edit: I am not visualizing Bitcoin as the one-world reserve currency, which will rather be a political power sharing compromise amongst nations with a monetary reset. I see Bitcoin being used to spread digital currency to the masses and force traditional banking and governments into electronic currency (which coincides with the War on Cash). Bitcoin is a clever Trojan horse created and planted by the DEEP STATE to force the move away from cash. They planned this out well. I am impressed.

Great post, until the last three sentences.  Those are speculation.

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