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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1804148 times)
iCEBREAKER
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May 27, 2015, 03:51:45 PM
 #24881

The experiment will likely fail if it the network is NOT upgraded and the limit eventually removed. 

Nonsense.

Bitcoin does not "fail."  It gains strength when, and only when, faced with adversity.

In this case, economic and social pressure from full blocks will force ad hoc (offchain) and per se (technical) optimizations, as well as the required consensus/political courage to implement those big scary changes.

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
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cypherdoc
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May 27, 2015, 03:54:56 PM
 #24882

Bitcoin is revolution and financial freedom, not a nifty gadget to put in retail points of sale.  If a guy in Venezuala (or Florida) can't be his own private bank by running a full node over TOR on a slow 5mb DSL line, this experiment has failed.

The experiment will likely fail if it the network is NOT upgraded and the limit eventually removed.  The limit has already been reached anyway.

Running a full client is ALREADY too resource-intensive for average Joe.  The blockchain.info model is better suited for average Joe.  That model has proven to solve the problem of trust in an environment where trust has been violated a majority of the time.  Average Joe will be his own bank with a simple web interface where he has full control over his keys. 

yes, the avg Venezuelan doesn't care about running a full node.  he cares about reliable, cheap tx's.  sad thing is, if we stay at 1MB blocks, he might never know about Bitcoin.  and he certainly will never learn about the more complex concept of digital gold.
bucktotal
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May 27, 2015, 03:58:11 PM
 #24883

excuse my ignorance, but why is average joe (or average jose in argentina) "required" to run a full node.

why cant they run an spv client?  Are spv clients like multibit unsafe (or not safe enough?) once sync'd to the rest of the nodes. satoshi believed that the vast majority would use spv clients. was this an unwise decision to make?


HeliKopterBen
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May 27, 2015, 04:10:25 PM
 #24884

The experiment will likely fail if it the network is NOT upgraded and the limit eventually removed.  The limit has already been reached anyway.

no. and no.

The first one is opinion.  The second one is fact.  I have seen plenty of blocks come through at 9xx kb, so yes the 1mb limit has been reached.

Counterfeit:  made in imitation of something else with intent to deceive:  merriam-webster
HeliKopterBen
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May 27, 2015, 04:18:00 PM
 #24885

The experiment will likely fail if it the network is NOT upgraded and the limit eventually removed. 

Nonsense.
Bitcoin does not "fail."  It gains strength when, and only when, faced with adversity.


I was being a bit facetious because of this nonsensical comment:

Quote from: iCEBREAKER
If a guy in Venezuala (or Florida) can't be his own private bank by running a full node over TOR on a slow 5mb DSL line, this experiment has failed.

Counterfeit:  made in imitation of something else with intent to deceive:  merriam-webster
sickpig
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May 27, 2015, 04:27:03 PM
 #24886

Another one from Gavin

http://gavinandresen.ninja/bigger-blocks-another-way

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
cypherdoc
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May 27, 2015, 04:29:24 PM
 #24887

The experiment will likely fail if it the network is NOT upgraded and the limit eventually removed. 

Nonsense.
Bitcoin does not "fail."  It gains strength when, and only when, faced with adversity.


I was being a bit facetious because of this nonsensical comment:

Quote from: iCEBREAKER
If a guy in Venezuala (or Florida) can't be his own private bank by running a full node over TOR on a slow 5mb DSL line, this experiment has failed.

it's reasonable to assume if we get 10x users, we'd get 10x #full nodes, and 10x the value.  we can't do that with a technical cap.
iCEBREAKER
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May 27, 2015, 05:20:21 PM
 #24888

yes, the avg Venezuelan doesn't care about running a full node.  he cares about reliable, cheap tx's.  sad thing is, if we stay at 1MB blocks, he might never know about Bitcoin.  and he certainly will never learn about the more complex concept of digital gold.

Bitcoin isn't going to fail because of full blocks.  I find your lack of faith disturbing.  As New Liberty said, "Sell your fear elsewhere."

It may experience temporary graceful degradation, but such adversity is required by antifragile systems in order to grow stronger.

Avg. Jose doesn't yet care about full nodes because he's never heard of Bitcoin, and Bitcoin hasn't yet closed the loop w/r/t fiat exclusion.

The infrastructure needed to onboard Avg. Jose, such as Lightning/Sidechains/linear UXTO scaling, is still in the vapor R&D stage.

Coddling BTC with lavish 20mb blocks, at the first hint of a possible sign of a whiff of tx fee pressure, decreases motivation to complete and implement that infrastructure and those optimizations.

BTC hype is largely driven by its price in fiat.  Price increases, not tps capacity, are what will sustain the next waves of publicity, awareness, and adoption.

What do you think the Great Schism and associated FUD are doing/will do to the price of BTC?

Will buyers think 'oh goody, BTC's stock is about to split into a parent corporation and a GavinCoin spin-off' or, 'holy shit, wtf do you mean I have to spend on both chains or abstain from transactions until the fork is resolved?"


it's reasonable to assume if we get 10x users, we'd get 10x #full nodes, and 10x the value.  we can't do that with a technical cap.

The soft 1mb cap is protecting us from the hard (but uncertain) UXTO cap.  It was put in place for another reason, but also happens to be a serendipitous magic number.

Until UXTO optimization/pruning can keep set growth (sub)linear, Bitcoin cannot replace Western Union, much less Visa.

To quote the great davout,

Quote
The true value that Bitcoin brings to the table is not "everyone gets to write into the holy ledger", it is instead "everyone gets to benefit from sane and non-inflationary financial instutions whose sanity and honesty are ensured by the holy blockchain".

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
thezerg
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May 27, 2015, 05:28:17 PM
 #24889

iCEBREAKER, your vision sucks. 

People can't directly submit txns because they are too expensive due to limited space.  So coin used for spending must be held by larger institutions who handle payments internally, and periodically make blockchain transfers among themselves.  These institutions will inevitably go fractional reserve even though they claim they won't.

Congratulations, you've reinvented the gold backed banking system of the 19th century!


iCEBREAKER
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May 27, 2015, 05:36:31 PM
 #24890

People can't directly submit txns because they are too expensive due to limited space.  So coin used for spending must be held by larger institutions who handle payments internally, and periodically make blockchain transfers among themselves.  These institutions will inevitably go fractional reserve even though they claim they won't.

Congratulations, you've reinvented the gold backed banking system of the 19th century!

Nonsense.

To quote the great davout,

Quote
The true value that Bitcoin brings to the table is not "everyone gets to write into the holy ledger", it is instead "everyone gets to benefit from sane and non-inflationary financial instutions whose sanity and honesty are ensured by the holy blockchain".

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
cypherdoc
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May 27, 2015, 05:45:12 PM
 #24891

People can't directly submit txns because they are too expensive due to limited space.  So coin used for spending must be held by larger institutions who handle payments internally, and periodically make blockchain transfers among themselves.  These institutions will inevitably go fractional reserve even though they claim they won't.

Congratulations, you've reinvented the gold backed banking system of the 19th century!

Nonsense.

To quote the great davout,

Quote
The true value that Bitcoin brings to the table is not "everyone gets to write into the holy ledger", it is instead "everyone gets to benefit from sane and non-inflationary financial instutions whose sanity and honesty are ensured by the holy blockchain".

doesn't compute.  if we're stuck at only 0.001% of the population even knowing about Bitcoin b/c of 1MB, that's not a definition of "everyone".
tvbcof
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May 27, 2015, 06:09:10 PM
 #24892

..
Will buyers think 'oh goody, BTC's stock is about to split into a parent corporation and a GavinCoin spin-off' or, 'holy shit, wtf do you mean I have to spend on both chains or abstain from transactions until the fork is resolved?"


One would only have to 'spend on both chains' if the recipient were demanding multi-chain legal outputs.  This would be an unlikely demand since only long term hodlers who controlled fossil UTXO's would be able to create them.  OTOH, such spends could very well command much higher valuations making Bitcoin Gavincoin as a currency highly non-fungible.

When sidechains or some like solution is well developed they can choose any backing store they like.  As long as Bitcoin is still idling along in the background, and especially if a highly distributed collection of full nodes exist to support it, many sidechains will probably choose Bitcoin as their backing store rather than Gavincoin.  I'll be taking a bet on this eventuality (and earning some spending money) by relinquishing control of a portion of my Gavincoin while maintaining control of it's Bitcoin counterpart.  At least if I can obtain a decent price for my Gavincoin-only spends.

As for 'abstaining from transactions', I've had no trouble doing so for the nearly two-year price slump and am not approaching the end of my patience.  Gavincoin will provoke a battle royal which could take many years to complete and may spawn and ecosystem of perpetual combat.  One way or another, the saying "If you cannot stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen" applies.  Those who are not technically and intellectually agile would be well advised to stick with Wells Fargo and Paypal.

edit: strike

iCEBREAKER
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May 27, 2015, 06:17:05 PM
 #24893

To quote the great davout,

Quote
The true value that Bitcoin brings to the table is not "everyone gets to write into the holy ledger", it is instead "everyone gets to benefit from sane and non-inflationary financial instutions whose sanity and honesty are ensured by the holy blockchain".

doesn't compute.  if we're stuck at only 0.001% of the population even knowing about Bitcoin b/c of 1MB, that's not a definition of "everyone".

You are confusing equality of opportunity (which is precluded by 20mb nodes' large care & feeding reqs) with equality of outcome (which is in no meaningful way encouraged by a mere 19mb increase). 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equality_of_outcome#Comparing_equalities_outcome_vs_opportunity

More than 1% of the world has already heard of Bitcoin, although only 0.001% of them >0 fucks about whether blocks are capped at 1mb or 20mb.

Until UXTO growth is contained within sustainable parameters, it is hopeless to expect anything resembling mass direct use to be driven by mere transactions per second.

People care about the price, not throughput.

The Great Schism threatens the price, which in turn retards hype/awareness/adoption/growth.

If the civil war goes hot and dueling forks ensue, there's no telling what kind of damage and FUD will be released in the wake of double-spent GavinCoins.

Mircea and his #BTC-assets brigade has already declared 20mb blocks to be an attack on Bitcoin, so some degree of fireworks/popcorn/tears/LULZ/drama are guaranteed.
Quote
"Bitcoin?  Didn't that implode in some obscure and incomprehensible sort of self-imposed extremely technical and nerdy e-peen measuring contest?"  -  Avg. Jose, July 2016

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
jmw74
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May 27, 2015, 06:36:05 PM
 #24894

People can't directly submit txns because they are too expensive due to limited space.  So coin used for spending must be held by larger institutions who handle payments internally, and periodically make blockchain transfers among themselves.  These institutions will inevitably go fractional reserve even though they claim they won't.

Congratulations, you've reinvented the gold backed banking system of the 19th century!

Nonsense.

Care to elaborate on that? Those who cannot afford to transact on the blockchain, what will they use instead?
justusranvier
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May 27, 2015, 06:56:16 PM
 #24895

The "great schism" is going to be underwhelming.

MP's popularity among certain subpopulations is a function of the prelevance of daddy issues in the Bitcoin community. He and the members of his cult of personality are stuck in a mutually-destructive relationship that precludes their capabilities from living up to the hype.
iCEBREAKER
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May 27, 2015, 06:56:52 PM
 #24896

People can't directly submit txns because they are too expensive due to limited space.  So coin used for spending must be held by larger institutions who handle payments internally, and periodically make blockchain transfers among themselves.  These institutions will inevitably go fractional reserve even though they claim they won't.

Nonsense.

Care to elaborate on that? Those who cannot afford to transact on the [BITCOIN] blockchain, what will they use instead?

They may use

-fiat

-"sane and non-inflationary financial instutions whose sanity and honesty are ensured by the holy blockchain"

-altcoins' blockchains

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
hdbuck
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May 27, 2015, 07:11:55 PM
 #24897

The "great schism" is going to be underwhelming.

MP's popularity among certain subpopulations is a function of the prelevance of daddy issues in the Bitcoin community. He and the members of his cult of personality are stuck in a mutually-destructive relationship that precludes their capabilities from living up to the hype.

Talking about personality cultists, doesn't these daddy issues also apply to the mass-minions that gets all wet about some "big names" of wall street, globally centralized businesses, and more generally of USG-approved scumbags joining Bitcoin? Shouldnt they be considered first and foremost the real destructive threat here?

Imho, MP is a joker. And a smart one to the least. He hasnt hurt anyone (except for sum ladyboys maybe), enslaved anyone, sold you like all the huge internet corporations CEOs has done... And now we are supposed to clap them busting into what was meant to bypass them?

With all respect, I think I have made my choice here. Now who's your daddy? ^^

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May 27, 2015, 07:12:26 PM
 #24898

The "great schism" is going to be underwhelming.

MP's popularity among certain subpopulations is a function of the prelevance of daddy issues in the Bitcoin community. He and the members of his cult of personality are stuck in a mutually-destructive relationship that precludes their capabilities from living up to the hype.

I hope you are right.  OTOH, perhaps the 'Full Block Crisis' will be underwhelming as market mechanisms efficiently allocate the scare resource of block space.

As for MP, I'm not sure why you seek to insult us with armchair Freud psychoanalysis bullshit.

If you really want to go there, I'd speculate that perhaps you are projecting onto MP issues and insecurities of your own.   Wink

His "cult of personality" is entirely aware of how their purposefully over-the-top shenanigans irritate easily offended dweebs such as yourself.

When you get all huffy and nasty towards MP & Co, it is a tremendous source of LULZ for them and 3rd party observers like myself.

I don't closely monitor the #bitcoin-assets crowd, but do know they have great senses of humor (unlike you dour finger-wagging types).

Besides the humor/trolling and white-knighting for SatoshiCoin, I also appreciate what MP did for OpenBSD.  Does that make me a cult member?    Roll Eyes   Cheesy

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
tvbcof
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May 27, 2015, 07:15:20 PM
 #24899

...
MP's popularity among certain subpopulations is a function of the prelevance of daddy issues in the Bitcoin community. He and the members of his cult of personality are stuck in a mutually-destructive relationship that precludes their capabilities from living up to the hype.

I'd not argue against most of that, but one can meet success by being, through shit-house luck, on the right side of a fence.

Back around the turn of the year I read MP's stuff some.  He's definitely a weird motherfucker, but definitely also very bright with a good grasp on many aspects of philosophical and engineering thought.  If I had to guess I'd say that whatever success he has realized (and I suspect it is significantly puffed up) was not in the accident of fate category as much as it was a result of good analysis and execution.  I'm as happy that he's on my side of the fence as I am that Gavin-the-clod is not.  If the MP contingent is self-destructive it's just one more ball to keep an eye on as the ecosystem experiences a stress pulse.


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May 27, 2015, 07:26:06 PM
 #24900

lol 3 MP defenders posts in a row here. its happening! Grin

edit: and i have to say i really appreciate tvbcof and icebreaker insights too. so thank you guise. Smiley
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