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Poll
Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2011329 times)
techgeek
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June 03, 2015, 07:27:15 PM
 #25361

Gavin's strength is his maturity and calm demeanor, imo.  he'll win if it comes down to a battle.

Nope.  Szatoshi will back Back and Maxwell.  The cypherpunks will stick together (or hang separately).

You should change your handle to 'FrappuccinoDoc.'   Grin

Bitcoin XT is a poison pill for all the newbs and unwary, certain bug fix commits that went into Core have already been omitted. Both Hearn and Andresen have been covertly anti-privacy from day zero, paying it only lip service when pressed. Don't trust it or them. Not to mention it is poorly maintained and totally untested. I can't believe I'm reading such a mad approach being championed on these pages ... it's like a twilight zone episode wtf are you people thinking !!! following Pied Pipers now?

I asked you once to support these serious allegations. Because you're calling Mike and Gavin liars otherwise.

You need to prove this now so that we can confirm or more likely dispense with you as a liar.

marcus, we're still waiting.

How do we get involved to improve the bitcoin xt?

Or is it like a invite only for now, for the core dev team?

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cypherdoc
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June 03, 2015, 07:34:48 PM
 #25362

How did this go from a gold collapsing bitcoin up thread to a poll about Gavin?

The ongoing Gavinista coup and looming Great Schism are widely considered the most serious and credible threats yet to cypher's bullish "Bitcoin UP" prediction/outlook.

Is not the Chicago boys any of us have to worry about. It's the Monero boys.  

True.  Monero solved the block size issue on day one with adaptive block sizes and costing.  I'm not in favor of rushing anything and like sipa's list of todos before any increase of Bitcoin block size, but there is some urgency for that.
http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/34090896/

there's nothing in there that hasn't been addressed by pro-block increase folks:


1.  again, he talks like 20MB will be instantly produced as a reason the network will choke.  no they won't, it will gradually increase over years during which bandwidth and storage will improve
2.  he talks about full nodes w/o ever considering users.  this is the problem i spoke about yesterday; these guys think the node is the fundamental unit which is wrong.  he mentions that merchants should be the ones to increase the #nodes; i agree.  but merchant businesses won't be created if there aren't users.  so grow the users thru wider adoption via cheaper fees and reliability.  don't choke them off with unconf tx's and high fees.
3.  he's right that "need" won't stop at 20MB but will just increase.  but that will take time as i said above and just how is that a bad thing to have all the extra users driving the system?  that will mean Bitcoin has successfully spread out thru growth.  but that growth can't happen if you have a technical choke on the system.
4.  i don't buy the fact that with 20MB that somehow large miners are going to pump out large blocks for a perceived benefit over small miners.  first off, all miners large and small probably have equal internet access speed.  it's a small cost to have one and any business running a pool is sure to have one so connectivity shouldn't be an issue.  as for the ability force small miners to process large blocks, this comes at the risk of the large miner getting orphaned trying to do so.  i've already explained why they shouldn't be bothered playing these games trying to hurt an undefined supposed enemy pool size.  Game theory effectively argues against this.  why shoot themselves in the foot undermining confidence in the system and crashing the price?  why alienate all their hashing clients who will pull out and punish them ala ghash?  it doesn't make sense.
5.  of all the Blockstream devs, Pieter would be the one who'd i think would be least captured.  but i have $21M that says he is at some level.
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June 03, 2015, 07:35:55 PM
 #25363


Converted my first node to XT today.

Was it as easy as expected? Just install and run with existing bitcoind directory? Or were there any catches?
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June 03, 2015, 07:53:14 PM
 #25364


Converted my first node to XT today.

Was it as easy as expected? Just install and run with existing bitcoind directory? Or were there any catches?

yeah, i think so.  i got alittle confused a bit along the way but got it up and running.  if you run into trouble, install the dependencies from here:  https://github.com/bitcoinxt/bitcoinxt
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June 03, 2015, 07:53:31 PM
 #25365


Converted my first node to XT today.

Was it as easy as expected? Just install and run with existing bitcoind directory? Or were there any catches?
on windows, just run the installer and all works, all config files are preserved and all CGminer scrips work as expected, cant say if Armory has any issues but I think it would just work.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
cypherdoc
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June 03, 2015, 07:57:07 PM
 #25366

how many do we have so far?

https://getaddr.bitnodes.io/nodes/?q=NODE_GETUTXOS

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/383jam/support_larger_blocks_by_running_a_bitcoin_xt/crsfori
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June 03, 2015, 07:58:27 PM
 #25367


Converted my first node to XT today.

Was it as easy as expected? Just install and run with existing bitcoind directory? Or were there any catches?
on windows, just run the installer and all works, all config files are preserved and all CGminer scrips work as expected, cant say if Armory has any issues but I think it would just work.

doug@armory claims it should work just fine.  they aren't worried a bit.
cypherdoc
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June 03, 2015, 08:01:53 PM
 #25368

Gavin's strength is his maturity and calm demeanor, imo.  he'll win if it comes down to a battle.

Nope.  Szatoshi will back Back and Maxwell.  The cypherpunks will stick together (or hang separately).

You should change your handle to 'FrappuccinoDoc.'   Grin

Bitcoin XT is a poison pill for all the newbs and unwary, certain bug fix commits that went into Core have already been omitted. Both Hearn and Andresen have been covertly anti-privacy from day zero, paying it only lip service when pressed. Don't trust it or them. Not to mention it is poorly maintained and totally untested. I can't believe I'm reading such a mad approach being championed on these pages ... it's like a twilight zone episode wtf are you people thinking !!! following Pied Pipers now?

I asked you once to support these serious allegations. Because you're calling Mike and Gavin liars otherwise.

You need to prove this now so that we can confirm or more likely dispense with you as a liar.

marcus, we're still waiting.

How do we get involved to improve the bitcoin xt?

Or is it like a invite only for now, for the core dev team?

contact Mike Hearn or Gavin.  they're looking for help. golden opportunity to get involved.
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June 03, 2015, 08:02:17 PM
 #25369


my node still registers as Satoshi:0.10.1/ on bitnodes.io


Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
cypherdoc
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June 03, 2015, 08:04:21 PM
 #25370


huh.  so the link from statoshi above indicates we may already have 85? Shocked
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June 03, 2015, 08:08:26 PM
 #25371

Gavin's strength is his maturity and calm demeanor, imo.  he'll win if it comes down to a battle.

Nope.  Szatoshi will back Back and Maxwell.  The cypherpunks will stick together (or hang separately).

You should change your handle to 'FrappuccinoDoc.'   Grin

Bitcoin XT is a poison pill for all the newbs and unwary, certain bug fix commits that went into Core have already been omitted. Both Hearn and Andresen have been covertly anti-privacy from day zero, paying it only lip service when pressed. Don't trust it or them. Not to mention it is poorly maintained and totally untested. I can't believe I'm reading such a mad approach being championed on these pages ... it's like a twilight zone episode wtf are you people thinking !!! following Pied Pipers now?

I asked you once to support these serious allegations. Because you're calling Mike and Gavin liars otherwise.

You need to prove this now so that we can confirm or more likely dispense with you as a liar.

marcus, we're still waiting.

How do we get involved to improve the bitcoin xt?

Or is it like a invite only for now, for the core dev team?

contact Mike Hearn or Gavin.  they're looking for help. golden opportunity to get involved.


Or just knock @CIA #MIT

Non inultus premor
cypherdoc
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June 03, 2015, 08:08:47 PM
 #25372

from Jameson Lopp an hour ago:

http://i.imgur.com/kX1Ed19.png
Adrian-x
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June 03, 2015, 08:19:06 PM
 #25373


interesting note, just looking around the node distribution map the nodes seem to be evenly distributed in the "West" with the density increasing with population density, the notable exceptions are Africa, China and oddly enough Japan and Moscow with almost 50 at the city center monitored by ex. KGB.   

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
rocks
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June 03, 2015, 08:21:14 PM
 #25374

from Jameson Lopp an hour ago:

http://i.imgur.com/kX1Ed19.png

That is scary. March 2016 is looking more and more that it might be too late.

But I'm sure the blockstream guys only see the emergence of fee pressure that will push people onto sidechains.

The whole blocksize debate has been theoretical so far. But once people's transactions start to backlog the discussion will take a very different turn. People want to be able to transaction directly with Bitcoin in an affordable manner. That is the entire ethos of the project.
cypherdoc
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June 03, 2015, 08:30:44 PM
 #25375

from Jameson Lopp an hour ago:

http://i.imgur.com/kX1Ed19.png

That is scary. March 2016 is looking more and more that it might be too late.

But I'm sure the blockstream guys only see the emergence of fee pressure that will push people onto sidechains.

The whole blocksize debate has been theoretical so far. But once people's transactions start to backlog the discussion will take a very different turn. People want to be able to transaction directly with Bitcoin in an affordable manner. That is the entire ethos of the project.

tvbcof
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June 03, 2015, 08:33:04 PM
 #25376

from Jameson Lopp an hour ago:

http://i.imgur.com/kX1Ed19.png

now we need hodlers more than ewar

dont sell, and dont send also, just hodl Smiley
rocks
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June 03, 2015, 08:37:22 PM
 #25377

from Jameson Lopp an hour ago:

http://i.imgur.com/kX1Ed19.png

now we need hodlers more than ewar

dont sell, and dont send also, just hodl Smiley

If only people stopped using their BTC and just held it and looked at it, then Bitcion would be as useful as gold is to Goldbugs (who don't seem to understand that gold will never be revalued as money unless the average person uses gold as money)
cypherdoc
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June 03, 2015, 08:37:41 PM
 #25378

from Jameson Lopp an hour ago:

http://i.imgur.com/kX1Ed19.png

now we need hodlers more than ewar

dont sell, and dont send also, just hodl Smiley

Right. And tell me what happens  to all the merchants dependent on TX's? And then when  merchants disappear, what happens  to users?  And once users disappear, what happens to hodlers?
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June 03, 2015, 09:05:02 PM
 #25379

This is the first video I've seen of Gregory Maxwell. This adds some confirmation for me of my upthread speculation about Greg seeing himself as critic and the smartest person in the room. He specifically states in this video that his role is more as a reviewer than a doer (even his stated goal is maximum impact with the least coding...which is a desirable goal but only if it is not the only one), right after admitting that he was wrong in 2004 about decentralized consensus being impossible. The audacity. Socrates taught us that recognizing that we are not omniscient is a primary attribute of cognition.

(Edit: in the "Selection Cryptography" portion of the video, he elaborates on why his role is appropriate — "Pragmatic has its place, but beware against biasing against competence")

No doubt this is a very smart guy with powerful crypto+math domain knowledge who can add considerable analysis and even new ideas. You'd definitely want him on your team (I would) if he can contain himself to a non-leadership role. But hand him the keys and you are likely to go too far down dead-end paths—e.g. CoinJoin—because my impression of him so far (limited interaction) is he is more of a narrow space thinker who doesn't pay as much attention to what is going on in the kitchen when he is in the basement (unless if he a lead on a very narrow space, orthogonally contained project domain such as an audio codec). And this is precisely what I told him the very first time he spanked me in public in these forums; I warned him that I am more of a pragmatic generalist and that we tend to paradigm shift around people like him (which is precisely what I am hoping to do accomplish this year). The first exposure I had to Greg was when I was very impressed by his forum post containing analysis of a proposed proof-of-work hash for something bytemaster was proposing (I forget the details).

I am taking a deeper look at Blockstream and side chains today for the first time. I will report back my findings shortly.

P.S. I am only 10 minutes into the linked video and it is particularly poignant so far. I highly recommend it. So far it appears to be making the case for Monero. It admits Tor is weak against the State, which is a concept I was promulgating since 2013 and was initially resisted (afair by Greg and many others). Good to see that my work in the forum in 2013 finally was accepted. I will say as AnonyMint, I was pushing hard for greater in anonymity starting in 2013 with some posts I made in the anoncoin thread.

The anti-"Eclipse" (Sybil attack mitigation) slide at the 11:45 minute mark is a very important point. An inherent weakness in PoW is the simultaneity requirement which makes network topology so critical (think orphan rates, selfish mining attacks, etc) and which is also difficult to anneal because of the self-referential relativity of the paradigm. This is one of the main fundamental flaws I want to address in crypto currency. I had referred to this recently as "anti-aliasing". Ironically where Greg says Satoshi's solution to decentralized consensus achieved something "not quite as strong" as that which he thought he had proved was impossible, the same applies to my solution to centralized consensus which implicitly resists centralization and scales to micropayment volume.

Another interesting point at 21 minutes, that multisig negatively impacts decentralization and scaling. This is another fundamental aspect my solution fixes. Schnorr as a potential solution to this problem for Bitcoin lacks optional accountability (or loses some of the scaling and decentralization advantages with Greg's TREE scheme) and has a simultaneity issue vaguely analogously related to the problem with CoinJoin.

Regarding Greg's redefinition of Cryptography at the 40+ minute mark, he is on the right track but I fundamentally disagree with his definition because it presumes we could both exist and information could be entirely free, i.e. it is vacuous because it presumes mutually incongruent assumptions. The generative essence is that the entropy of the universe is trending to maximum (i.e. not infinity) according to the Second Law of Thermodynamics (refer to the upthread philosophical discussion about existence and theoretic physics). I would instead define, "Cryptography is the art of structuring information such that hidden entropy doesn't collapse to 0 over known domains in time and computability".

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June 03, 2015, 09:06:58 PM
 #25380


hopefully nope!
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