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Poll
Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1804666 times)
TPTB_need_war
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June 03, 2015, 03:08:16 AM
 #25361

One classic Gmax thing is to make every statement interpretable in a safe way. For example, today's reddit post where someone was accusing Peter Todd of being biased against an increase because of his affiliation with Viacoin. I don't think there is much merit to the accusation (though that doesn't excuse Todd's sensationalism), but in Greg's reply he said, "Welcome to Reddit, 'Viacoin66'!"

He will say something that looks safe and unantagonizing (just the standard Reddit welcome), but his real purpose is to point out that the account was bran new and imply that it was obviously created to troll Viacoin/Todd. He's probably right about that, but nevertheless it's an example of what I mean where he'll say whatever serves any sort of low-blow purpose in a debate as long as it can be interpreted as not being that. I guess with his security testing mindset he has become Mr. Plausible Deniability.

You almost got it.

He is winning the "I am the smartest dude here" argument to himself. By obscuring his point, he further proves to himself that he is smarter than everyone else that misses the point. And those who are smart enough to get it, will realize that he is speaking to them, while throwing off the lesser dogs from the scent so he won't have to waste his time arguing with them. He lives in his own world. For as long as he is correct, then he has won.

He is very comfortable with Adam Back because he views him as an intellectual peer.

It isn't about real world results for him, although he doesn't rationalize it that way. In his mind, it probably plays something like, "by being the most correct, we will attain the best outcome".

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TPTB_need_war
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June 03, 2015, 03:15:23 AM
 #25362

Adam Back is still pinning hopes on alternative solutions...

One theory I have entertained is that Adam and Greg both see Bitcoin's design is highly flawed, and they've been trying to forestall hoping a solution could be found. I bet they on their own long ago realized the points I have written about centralization are correct. They've tried to keep their true appraisals hidden and work for solutions, but haven't really found any (but they don't dare admit that).

P.S. My past few posts about people are highly speculative and not intended to be statements of fact.

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June 03, 2015, 03:21:56 AM
 #25363

Adam Back is still pinning hopes on alternative solutions...

One theory I have entertained is that Adam and Greg both see Bitcoin's design is highly flawed, and they've been trying to forestall hoping a solution could be found. I bet they on their own long ago realized the points I have written about centralization are correct. They've tried to keep their true appraisals hidden and work for solutions, but haven't really found any (but they don't dare admit that).

P.S. My past few posts about people are highly speculative and not intended to be statements of fact.

They may have what they think is a better idea, Sidechains could be a way to sling shot momentum.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
TPTB_need_war
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June 03, 2015, 03:24:48 AM
 #25364

Gavin's strength is his maturity and calm demeanor, imo.  he'll win if it comes down to a battle.

Nope.  Szatoshi will back Back and Maxwell.  The cypherpunks will stick together (or hang separately).

You should change your handle to 'FrappuccinoDoc.'   Grin

Bitcoin XT is a poison pill for all the newbs and unwary, certain bug fix commits that went into Core have already been omitted. Both Hearn and Andresen have been covertly anti-privacy from day zero, paying it only lip service when pressed. Don't trust it or them. Not to mention it is poorly maintained and totally untested. I can't believe I'm reading such a mad approach being championed on these pages ... it's like a twilight zone episode wtf are you people thinking !!! following Pied Pipers now?

Not only that friend, what else are they planing to change down the line? Like I said many moons ago, they will try change the emission and they will start making Bitcoin permanently inflationary, not that I'm against the model, I like Monero exactly because the disinflation but it is a severe rupture of Bitcoin's trust and social contract and all started with the project being hijacked into this obscure XT fork.

Quote
Neither me nor Gavin believe a fee market will work as a substitute for the inflation subsidy. It just doesn’t seem to work, economically.

https://medium.com/@octskyward/crash-landing-f5cc19908e32

Who said that? You guessed right, Gavin's vice-fuhrer.

if they get there way, they wont have any power to change things it will be a democracy of users who decide, luckily Monero doesn't have a nullc yet. 

Same reply as I have to rocks. You apparently haven't been paying attention to my posts.

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June 03, 2015, 03:27:18 AM
 #25365

Not only that friend, what else are they planing to change down the line? Like I said many moons ago, they will try change the emission and they will start making Bitcoin permanently inflationary, not that I'm against the model, I like Monero exactly because the disinflation but it is a severe rupture of Bitcoin's trust and social contract and all started with the project being hijacked into this obscure XT fork.
If they try to make a change like that, users will migrate away from their fork just as easy as they migrated to it.

In the end, the developers don't actually have any power - they can only product the software which users want or refrain from doing so.

People are sheep that will go with the loudest/best advertising, regardless of benefit/detriment.   Just look at every other system in existence.  

I should have read these replies first. Seems others agree with my stance.

I will take another hiatus (maybe more than a few days and hopefully forever).

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June 03, 2015, 03:57:57 AM
 #25366



frap.doc's man crush on gavin the g-man turned into a cheerleading rally session to get the plebes onto the new bitcoin spook-fork.

both frap.doc and karpeles want to frap it up on the blockchain.

Now that's just cruel.  LOL!   Cheesy

seems character assassination and smearing is what frap.doc wants this thread to be about, I can oblige in any good mud-slinging, pig-wrestling descent into farce.

I'm half tempted to try to remember how I did the ag and adjust it again.




Zangelbert Bingledack
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June 03, 2015, 05:20:18 AM
 #25367

Gavin is pragmatic and respects his limitations because he values his accomplishments more than his appraisal of his knowledge, i.e. he doesn't have insecurities or is more balanced. Greg is idealistic and doesn't respect his limitations because he values his appraisal of his knowledge more than his accomplishments, i.e. he has some insecurities or is less balanced.

You definitely want Greg to leave your coin and go to the competitor's coin where he can pretty well muck it up. CoinJoin is a great example of that.

Don't get me wrong, Greg is smarter and more knowledgeable than me when it comes to math and crypto. He is a guy you'd love to have for his smarts, but you'd need to be very careful not to hand him the keys. Perhaps you could bring him around with some social engineering. I found that by being more careful about the way I interacted with him in ways that painted his ego well, he was more accommodating. I doubt he wants to leave Bitcoin, because he wouldn't have the same prominence with any other direction. Thus is he ripe to be accommodating.

This seems very plausible.
cypherdoc
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June 03, 2015, 06:11:58 AM
 #25368

How did this go from a gold collapsing bitcoin up thread to a poll about Gavin?

frap.doc's man crush on gavin the g-man turned into a cheerleading rally session to get the plebes onto the new bitcoin spook-fork.



both frap.doc and karpeles want to frap it up on the blockchain.

Is that even supposed to be funny marcus? Surely you have more imagination than iCELatte?

Of course, you're not man enough  to admit you always throw the first stone are you?:

http://reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/381ygv/who_is_in_favour_of_reducing_the_blocksize_limit/crsjw15
iCEBREAKER
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June 03, 2015, 06:19:01 AM
 #25369

[gossip about personalities]

This seems very plausible.

It's also irrelevant.

20MB blocks aren't a Gavinista vs Greg issue.  The XT controversy has set the Gavinistas against all our other core devs.

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
majamalu
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June 03, 2015, 06:29:35 AM
 #25370

[gossip about personalities]

This seems very plausible.

It's also irrelevant.

20MB blocks aren't a Gavinista vs Greg issue.  The XT controversy has set the Gavinistas against all our other core devs.

It seems that the gavinistas are the true satoshistas: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=287.msg8810#msg8810

http://elbitcoin.org - Bitcoin en español
http://mercadobitcoin.com - MercadoBitcoin
cypherdoc
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June 03, 2015, 06:34:48 AM
 #25371

How did this go from a gold collapsing bitcoin up thread to a poll about Gavin?

The ongoing Gavinista coup and looming Great Schism are widely considered the most serious and credible threats yet to cypher's bullish "Bitcoin UP" prediction/outlook.

Is not the Chicago boys any of us have to worry about. It's the Monero boys. 
cypherdoc
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June 03, 2015, 06:37:19 AM
 #25372

[gossip about personalities]

This seems very plausible.

It's also irrelevant.

20MB blocks aren't a Gavinista vs Greg issue.  The XT controversy has set the Gavinistas against all our other core devs.

All other core  devs are acting as a block called Blockstream. Wladimir is just temporarily confused over full nodes vs users.
cypherdoc
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June 03, 2015, 06:49:42 AM
 #25373

Converted my first node to XT today.
iCEBREAKER
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June 03, 2015, 07:04:09 AM
 #25374

[gossip about personalities]

This seems very plausible.

It's also irrelevant.

20MB blocks aren't a Gavinista vs Greg issue.  The XT controversy has set the Gavinistas against all our other core devs.

All other core  devs are acting as a block called Blockstream. Wladimir is just temporarily confused over full nodes vs users.

Blockstream hasn't hired "all other core devs."  And let's not even start with Gavin and THE BITCOIN FOUNDATION INC.

Converted my first node to XT today.

Frap.doc is empowering kids in Africa to buy their frosty blended coffee beverages with the tool Satoshi intended to destroy TBTF banks.

Heartwarming.  I'm sure there won't be any trade-offs or problems you'll expect gmax to fix.   Roll Eyes

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
majamalu
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June 03, 2015, 07:20:25 AM
 #25375

Satoshi's own words: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1347.msg15366#msg15366

http://elbitcoin.org - Bitcoin en español
http://mercadobitcoin.com - MercadoBitcoin
smooth
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June 03, 2015, 07:26:56 AM
 #25376

I remain largely neutral about whether Bitcoin, Monero, or any future cryptocurrency will actually succeed on a large scale.

Does that include all potential Butterfly effects?

No, I have no idea of the possible range of outcomes.

hdbuck
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June 03, 2015, 07:29:27 AM
 #25377



satoshi left us  Cry
Zangelbert Bingledack
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June 03, 2015, 07:48:20 AM
 #25378

Meni Rosenfeld proposes an elastic block cap where miners are penalized progressively for blocks bigger than whatever the limit is.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1078521.msg11517847

The idea is to avoid a "crash landing" at 1MB or even at 8 or 20MB. Bitcoin adoption is known to come in order-of-magnitude spurts, so even 20MB isn't immune to a crash landing scenario; and think how much harder another order-of-magnitude increase will be from 20MB, or from 200MB.

We need a way to turn these brick walls into gentle hills, not just lengthen the road leading to them. (To be clear, I think we should do both. Actually having no limit probably does both.)
dEBRUYNE
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June 03, 2015, 11:52:49 AM
 #25379

Meni Rosenfeld proposes an elastic block cap where miners are penalized progressively for blocks bigger than whatever the limit is.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1078521.msg11517847

The idea is to avoid a "crash landing" at 1MB or even at 8 or 20MB. Bitcoin adoption is known to come in order-of-magnitude spurts, so even 20MB isn't immune to a crash landing scenario; and think how much harder another order-of-magnitude increase will be from 20MB, or from 200MB.

We need a way to turn these brick walls into gentle hills, not just lengthen the road leading to them. (To be clear, I think we should do both. Actually having no limit probably does both.)

Relevant and interesting comment from Reddit on this subject:

Quote from: Tacotime
As I noted in the thread, this is similar to the block sizing algorithm for Monero and other CryptoNote coins. A quadratic penalty is imposed such that block subsidy = base subsidy * ((block size / median size of last 400 blocks) - 1)2, with the penalty being applied after you build a block larger than the median size. The maximum block size is 2*median size. Because subsidy is based around the number of coins in existence, the 'burned' subsidy is deferred to be paid out to future blocks.

Unlike Meni's proposal, burned block subsidy is simply deferred to all future miners. So far, this has worked in CryptoNote coins without issue.

I am unsure of the incentives of the rollover fee pool method -- it seems like a way to smooth out and evenly distribute fees among miners, but I'm not sure if it work exactly the way it is intended to. For instance, it may disincentivize the inclusion of some larger fee transactions because the miner will fail to immediately benefit from them, and indeed, if the miner is small and only occasionally gets blocks, may never benefit from them. In this case, fees will end up being paid to the miner out of band, thus defeating the entire fee pool mechanism.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/389pq6/elastic_block_cap_with_rollover_penalties_my/crts1do

Privacy matters, use Monero - A true untraceable cryptocurrency
Why Monero matters? http://weuse.cash/2016/03/05/bitcoiners-hedge-your-position/
cypherdoc
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June 03, 2015, 12:55:05 PM
 #25380

Meni Rosenfeld proposes an elastic block cap where miners are penalized progressively for blocks bigger than whatever the limit is.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1078521.msg11517847

The idea is to avoid a "crash landing" at 1MB or even at 8 or 20MB. Bitcoin adoption is known to come in order-of-magnitude spurts, so even 20MB isn't immune to a crash landing scenario; and think how much harder another order-of-magnitude increase will be from 20MB, or from 200MB.

We need a way to turn these brick walls into gentle hills, not just lengthen the road leading to them. (To be clear, I think we should do both. Actually having no limit probably does both.)

Relevant and interesting comment from Reddit on this subject:

Quote from: Tacotime
As I noted in the thread, this is similar to the block sizing algorithm for Monero and other CryptoNote coins. A quadratic penalty is imposed such that block subsidy = base subsidy * ((block size / median size of last 400 blocks) - 1)2, with the penalty being applied after you build a block larger than the median size. The maximum block size is 2*median size. Because subsidy is based around the number of coins in existence, the 'burned' subsidy is deferred to be paid out to future blocks.

Unlike Meni's proposal, burned block subsidy is simply deferred to all future miners. So far, this has worked in CryptoNote coins without issue.

I am unsure of the incentives of the rollover fee pool method -- it seems like a way to smooth out and evenly distribute fees among miners, but I'm not sure if it work exactly the way it is intended to. For instance, it may disincentivize the inclusion of some larger fee transactions because the miner will fail to immediately benefit from them, and indeed, if the miner is small and only occasionally gets blocks, may never benefit from them. In this case, fees will end up being paid to the miner out of band, thus defeating the entire fee pool mechanism.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/389pq6/elastic_block_cap_with_rollover_penalties_my/crts1do

How are they using the term out of band in this context?
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