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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2013770 times)
iCEBREAKER
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May 27, 2015, 05:36:31 PM
 #24861

People can't directly submit txns because they are too expensive due to limited space.  So coin used for spending must be held by larger institutions who handle payments internally, and periodically make blockchain transfers among themselves.  These institutions will inevitably go fractional reserve even though they claim they won't.

Congratulations, you've reinvented the gold backed banking system of the 19th century!

Nonsense.

To quote the great davout,

Quote
The true value that Bitcoin brings to the table is not "everyone gets to write into the holy ledger", it is instead "everyone gets to benefit from sane and non-inflationary financial instutions whose sanity and honesty are ensured by the holy blockchain".


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
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May 27, 2015, 05:45:12 PM
 #24862

People can't directly submit txns because they are too expensive due to limited space.  So coin used for spending must be held by larger institutions who handle payments internally, and periodically make blockchain transfers among themselves.  These institutions will inevitably go fractional reserve even though they claim they won't.

Congratulations, you've reinvented the gold backed banking system of the 19th century!

Nonsense.

To quote the great davout,

Quote
The true value that Bitcoin brings to the table is not "everyone gets to write into the holy ledger", it is instead "everyone gets to benefit from sane and non-inflationary financial instutions whose sanity and honesty are ensured by the holy blockchain".

doesn't compute.  if we're stuck at only 0.001% of the population even knowing about Bitcoin b/c of 1MB, that's not a definition of "everyone".
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May 27, 2015, 06:09:10 PM
 #24863

..
Will buyers think 'oh goody, BTC's stock is about to split into a parent corporation and a GavinCoin spin-off' or, 'holy shit, wtf do you mean I have to spend on both chains or abstain from transactions until the fork is resolved?"


One would only have to 'spend on both chains' if the recipient were demanding multi-chain legal outputs.  This would be an unlikely demand since only long term hodlers who controlled fossil UTXO's would be able to create them.  OTOH, such spends could very well command much higher valuations making Bitcoin Gavincoin as a currency highly non-fungible.

When sidechains or some like solution is well developed they can choose any backing store they like.  As long as Bitcoin is still idling along in the background, and especially if a highly distributed collection of full nodes exist to support it, many sidechains will probably choose Bitcoin as their backing store rather than Gavincoin.  I'll be taking a bet on this eventuality (and earning some spending money) by relinquishing control of a portion of my Gavincoin while maintaining control of it's Bitcoin counterpart.  At least if I can obtain a decent price for my Gavincoin-only spends.

As for 'abstaining from transactions', I've had no trouble doing so for the nearly two-year price slump and am not approaching the end of my patience.  Gavincoin will provoke a battle royal which could take many years to complete and may spawn and ecosystem of perpetual combat.  One way or another, the saying "If you cannot stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen" applies.  Those who are not technically and intellectually agile would be well advised to stick with Wells Fargo and Paypal.

edit: strike

iCEBREAKER
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May 27, 2015, 06:17:05 PM
 #24864

To quote the great davout,

Quote
The true value that Bitcoin brings to the table is not "everyone gets to write into the holy ledger", it is instead "everyone gets to benefit from sane and non-inflationary financial instutions whose sanity and honesty are ensured by the holy blockchain".

doesn't compute.  if we're stuck at only 0.001% of the population even knowing about Bitcoin b/c of 1MB, that's not a definition of "everyone".

You are confusing equality of opportunity (which is precluded by 20mb nodes' large care & feeding reqs) with equality of outcome (which is in no meaningful way encouraged by a mere 19mb increase). 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equality_of_outcome#Comparing_equalities_outcome_vs_opportunity

More than 1% of the world has already heard of Bitcoin, although only 0.001% of them >0 fucks about whether blocks are capped at 1mb or 20mb.

Until UXTO growth is contained within sustainable parameters, it is hopeless to expect anything resembling mass direct use to be driven by mere transactions per second.

People care about the price, not throughput.

The Great Schism threatens the price, which in turn retards hype/awareness/adoption/growth.

If the civil war goes hot and dueling forks ensue, there's no telling what kind of damage and FUD will be released in the wake of double-spent GavinCoins.

Mircea and his #BTC-assets brigade has already declared 20mb blocks to be an attack on Bitcoin, so some degree of fireworks/popcorn/tears/LULZ/drama are guaranteed.
Quote
"Bitcoin?  Didn't that implode in some obscure and incomprehensible sort of self-imposed extremely technical and nerdy e-peen measuring contest?"  -  Avg. Jose, July 2016


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
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jmw74
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May 27, 2015, 06:36:05 PM
 #24865

People can't directly submit txns because they are too expensive due to limited space.  So coin used for spending must be held by larger institutions who handle payments internally, and periodically make blockchain transfers among themselves.  These institutions will inevitably go fractional reserve even though they claim they won't.

Congratulations, you've reinvented the gold backed banking system of the 19th century!

Nonsense.

Care to elaborate on that? Those who cannot afford to transact on the blockchain, what will they use instead?
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May 27, 2015, 06:56:16 PM
 #24866

The "great schism" is going to be underwhelming.

MP's popularity among certain subpopulations is a function of the prelevance of daddy issues in the Bitcoin community. He and the members of his cult of personality are stuck in a mutually-destructive relationship that precludes their capabilities from living up to the hype.
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May 27, 2015, 06:56:52 PM
 #24867

People can't directly submit txns because they are too expensive due to limited space.  So coin used for spending must be held by larger institutions who handle payments internally, and periodically make blockchain transfers among themselves.  These institutions will inevitably go fractional reserve even though they claim they won't.

Nonsense.

Care to elaborate on that? Those who cannot afford to transact on the [BITCOIN] blockchain, what will they use instead?

They may use

-fiat

-"sane and non-inflationary financial instutions whose sanity and honesty are ensured by the holy blockchain"

-altcoins' blockchains


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
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May 27, 2015, 07:11:55 PM
 #24868

The "great schism" is going to be underwhelming.

MP's popularity among certain subpopulations is a function of the prelevance of daddy issues in the Bitcoin community. He and the members of his cult of personality are stuck in a mutually-destructive relationship that precludes their capabilities from living up to the hype.

Talking about personality cultists, doesn't these daddy issues also apply to the mass-minions that gets all wet about some "big names" of wall street, globally centralized businesses, and more generally of USG-approved scumbags joining Bitcoin? Shouldnt they be considered first and foremost the real destructive threat here?

Imho, MP is a joker. And a smart one to the least. He hasnt hurt anyone (except for sum ladyboys maybe), enslaved anyone, sold you like all the huge internet corporations CEOs has done... And now we are supposed to clap them busting into what was meant to bypass them?

With all respect, I think I have made my choice here. Now who's your daddy? ^^

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May 27, 2015, 07:12:26 PM
 #24869

The "great schism" is going to be underwhelming.

MP's popularity among certain subpopulations is a function of the prelevance of daddy issues in the Bitcoin community. He and the members of his cult of personality are stuck in a mutually-destructive relationship that precludes their capabilities from living up to the hype.

I hope you are right.  OTOH, perhaps the 'Full Block Crisis' will be underwhelming as market mechanisms efficiently allocate the scare resource of block space.

As for MP, I'm not sure why you seek to insult us with armchair Freud psychoanalysis bullshit.

If you really want to go there, I'd speculate that perhaps you are projecting onto MP issues and insecurities of your own.   Wink

His "cult of personality" is entirely aware of how their purposefully over-the-top shenanigans irritate easily offended dweebs such as yourself.

When you get all huffy and nasty towards MP & Co, it is a tremendous source of LULZ for them and 3rd party observers like myself.

I don't closely monitor the #bitcoin-assets crowd, but do know they have great senses of humor (unlike you dour finger-wagging types).

Besides the humor/trolling and white-knighting for SatoshiCoin, I also appreciate what MP did for OpenBSD.  Does that make me a cult member?    Roll Eyes   Cheesy


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
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May 27, 2015, 07:15:20 PM
 #24870

...
MP's popularity among certain subpopulations is a function of the prelevance of daddy issues in the Bitcoin community. He and the members of his cult of personality are stuck in a mutually-destructive relationship that precludes their capabilities from living up to the hype.

I'd not argue against most of that, but one can meet success by being, through shit-house luck, on the right side of a fence.

Back around the turn of the year I read MP's stuff some.  He's definitely a weird motherfucker, but definitely also very bright with a good grasp on many aspects of philosophical and engineering thought.  If I had to guess I'd say that whatever success he has realized (and I suspect it is significantly puffed up) was not in the accident of fate category as much as it was a result of good analysis and execution.  I'm as happy that he's on my side of the fence as I am that Gavin-the-clod is not.  If the MP contingent is self-destructive it's just one more ball to keep an eye on as the ecosystem experiences a stress pulse.


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May 27, 2015, 07:26:06 PM
 #24871

lol 3 MP defenders posts in a row here. its happening! Grin

edit: and i have to say i really appreciate tvbcof and icebreaker insights too. so thank you guise. Smiley
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May 27, 2015, 07:28:37 PM
 #24872

I believe the block size limit issue is getting critical.  You guys should check out Reggie Middleton's Veritaseum.  Quoting:

Quote
Veritaseum uses only bitcoin, and subsists completely on the bitcoin blockchain. It is the only bitcoin wallet system that can trade simple and complex value structures without using non-bitcoin tokens, alt coins, sidechains or alternative blockchains. It can trade the value of over 45,000 tickers in all asset classes, from major exchanges from all around the world. At it’s essence, Veritaseum is a hyper-intelligent Bitcoin wallet “system” that is able to create and interpret smart contracts through the blockchain. It coordinates with an Oracle to gain access to conventional, physical and legacy financial data and information and uses it to price, value, trade and settle OTC, P2P financial instruments - all in BTC.

Quote from: from Reggie Middleton
The Veritaseum platform, using nothing but pure bitcoin with no tokens or alternative internal currencies, moves the value of all that he mentioned plus much more (over 45k tickers), with absolutely no counterparty risk on a fully autonomous basis using smart contracts based solely on bitcoin script

Quote from: from Reggie Middleton
A member of our board of advisors, which we are just putting together, is the ex-chief investment office of one of the largest funds in the world — a few hundred billion dollars. He was a maverick in his space, is excited about the opportunity to literally shake up the world of finance, and is tasked with basically getting institutions to do trades. So, for every ten billion dollar institution that [trades on our platform], that’s the equivalent of an entire Bitfinex in one month’s worth of trades. That’s how we’re going to start, and then we have different verticals — we have that vertical, we have retail, and we have other, specialized verticals.”

Pretty bold claims from Middleton, but I have tried it and it works, at least in a beta phase, not vapor phase or proof of concept phase, but beta phase.  You can trade all tickers that Cypherdoc mentions on here. 

The potential for a massive influx of usage is there, but 7 tps won't cut it.  We have already hit that limit with people just experimenting.  Frankly, I don't think 20mb will cut it either, but its a step in the right direction.  I am for a dynamic limit based on something like one standard deviation above a 30 day moving average of blocksize, or something similar, but I am with Gavin in that it has become mission-critical.

Counterfeit:  made in imitation of something else with intent to deceive:  merriam-webster
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May 27, 2015, 07:37:11 PM
 #24873

...
MP's popularity among certain subpopulations is a function of the prelevance of daddy issues in the Bitcoin community. He and the members of his cult of personality are stuck in a mutually-destructive relationship that precludes their capabilities from living up to the hype.

I'd not argue against most of that, but one can meet success by being, through shit-house luck, on the right side of a fence.

Back around the turn of the year I read MP's stuff some.  He's definitely a weird motherfucker, but definitely also very bright with a good grasp on many aspects of philosophical and engineering thought.  If I had to guess I'd say that whatever success he has realized (and I suspect it is significantly puffed up) was not in the accident of fate category as much as it was a result of good analysis and execution.  I'm as happy that he's on my side of the fence as I am that Gavin-the-clod is not.  If the MP contingent is self-destructive it's just one more ball to keep an eye on as the ecosystem experiences a stress pulse.
I've barely interacted with MP, but I have had the opportunity to observe signifigant changes in behaviour among some people who have spent a lot of time doing so.

There are people who respond to his shtick for reasons independent of the quality of his analysis and display all the signs of co-dependence. It doesn't bode well for the future achievements of anyone involved.
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May 27, 2015, 07:44:17 PM
 #24874

I believe the block size limit issue is getting critical.  You guys should check out Reggie Middleton's Veritaseum.

I believe antifragile systems require adversity in order to innovate, adjust, and thrive.

I believe the source of Bitcoin's antifragility is its diverse, diffuse, defensible, and resilient network.

I believe a functioning (IE non- or less-subsidized) market for Bitcoin transactions will ensure miners continue to secure the network even as block rewards dwindle.

I believe you should sell your fear somewhere else.


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
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May 27, 2015, 08:09:01 PM
 #24875

signs of co-dependence

If you could please spare us from further demonstrations of your miraculous ability to remotely diagnose mental disorders, that would be great.

As for MP's "shtick" versus your own...

I'd rather be MP's cultist than a snotty, pseudo-Freudian, utterly-normative frump like you.  You think you're cool but you are actually just another cultural Marxist parrot repeating the smug groupthink prevalent on Reddit and campus.

MP may be a weirdo or whatever but at least he's not a haughty, preening, typical Austinite snob.

If you insist on buying gluten-free funnel cakes from your favorite food truck using on-chain transactions, do us a favor and instead of Bitcoin use LTC, PPC, XPM, XCN, or DOGE.


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
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May 27, 2015, 08:20:09 PM
 #24876

I believe the block size limit issue is getting critical.  You guys should check out Reggie Middleton's Veritaseum.  Quoting:

Quote
Veritaseum uses only bitcoin, and subsists completely on the bitcoin blockchain. It is the only bitcoin wallet system that can trade simple and complex value structures without using non-bitcoin tokens, alt coins, sidechains or alternative blockchains. It can trade the value of over 45,000 tickers in all asset classes, from major exchanges from all around the world. At it’s essence, Veritaseum is a hyper-intelligent Bitcoin wallet “system” that is able to create and interpret smart contracts through the blockchain. It coordinates with an Oracle to gain access to conventional, physical and legacy financial data and information and uses it to price, value, trade and settle OTC, P2P financial instruments - all in BTC.

Quote from: from Reggie Middleton
The Veritaseum platform, using nothing but pure bitcoin with no tokens or alternative internal currencies, moves the value of all that he mentioned plus much more (over 45k tickers), with absolutely no counterparty risk on a fully autonomous basis using smart contracts based solely on bitcoin script

Quote from: from Reggie Middleton
A member of our board of advisors, which we are just putting together, is the ex-chief investment office of one of the largest funds in the world — a few hundred billion dollars. He was a maverick in his space, is excited about the opportunity to literally shake up the world of finance, and is tasked with basically getting institutions to do trades. So, for every ten billion dollar institution that [trades on our platform], that’s the equivalent of an entire Bitfinex in one month’s worth of trades. That’s how we’re going to start, and then we have different verticals — we have that vertical, we have retail, and we have other, specialized verticals.”

Pretty bold claims from Middleton, but I have tried it and it works, at least in a beta phase, not vapor phase or proof of concept phase, but beta phase.  You can trade all tickers that Cypherdoc mentions on here. 

The potential for a massive influx of usage is there, but 7 tps won't cut it.  We have already hit that limit with people just experimenting.  Frankly, I don't think 20mb will cut it either, but its a step in the right direction.  I am for a dynamic limit based on something like one standard deviation above a 30 day moving average of blocksize, or something similar, but I am with Gavin in that it has become mission-critical.

One more in a long list of efforts built around getting a free ride on the protocol at the expense of others.  They should be being worried about it being ballooned, weakened, and ultimately controlled more than anyone unless they are running some sort of pump-n-dump scam platform or are as dumb as a box of rocks.

Whatever the case, this is a classic example of where a dedicated sidechain could shine.  Reggie and co can make their own determinations about how much engineering and transparency they want to pay for for their VeritaseumCoin sidechain based on the market demand in their segment.  They can also decide how much effort they should be putting into securing Bitcoin core, and I doubt that it would be less than it is today.


necrita
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May 27, 2015, 08:32:31 PM
 #24877

signs of co-dependence

If you could please spare us from further demonstrates of your miraculous ability to remotely diagnose mental disorders, that would be great.

As for MP's "shtick" versus your own...

I'd rather be MP's cultist than a snotty, pseudo-Freudian, utterly-normative frump like you.  You think you're cool but you are actually just another cultural Marxist parrot repeating the smug groupthink prevalent on Reddit and campus.

MP may be a weirdo or whatever but at least he's not a haughty, preening, typical Austinite snob.

If you insist on buying gluten-free funnel cakes from your favorite food truck using on-chain transactions, do us a favor and instead of Bitcoin use LTC, PPC, XPM, XCN, or DOGE.

I know you've been here a long time, but people are allowed to have their own opinions.
The BTC ecosystem can exist just fine with MP, Justus and the crew on this thread. There's no need to ad-hom justus.
I like the effort he's put in to address the issues we discuss here and his wallet report. MP is also a valuable contributor to the BTC economy with his exchange and other BTC related businesses.

Go back to shilling XMR in the alt forum.
thezerg
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May 27, 2015, 09:16:52 PM
 #24878

Wow, I think I really raised the temp in here!  But let me point out that I said that iCEBREAKER's vision sucks, not himself -- that is I wasn't attacking him, just the idea.

But I can't resist saying one thing ad-hominem about MP since others have brought him up.  He seems to post in an obfuscated, I know more than thou manner, but when you finally decode his meaning it typically turns out to be pretty boring and predictable.

And one note to those of you trying to label the 20MB patch "Gavincoin":  That's not how its going to go down.  Its going to be called Bitcoin V0.11 (or whatever), and your 1MB fork is going to be the old V0.10.

And finally, in a 1MB block world its likely that Bitcoin will never grow because it will not find acceptance due to high txn fees.  But if it beats those odds, in places like Venezuela and Argentina, institutions will "back" their accounts and fiat with bitcoins, but then just like gold surprise surprise the world will discover that they are 10 to 1 fractional and all the account holders are wiped out.  In other words, as I previously stated, back to 19th century banking.



mrhelpful
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May 27, 2015, 09:22:47 PM
 #24879

I know its a matter of when, so it can be like within this year or maybe 4 years down the road.

But, why cant we just upgrade our wallets to handle the 20 mb, besides I thought the 1 mb issue is regarding on seperate transactions anyways. Right now its like 300 kb at most per transaction with me.
HeliKopterBen
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May 27, 2015, 10:10:46 PM
 #24880

We get several of these a day now.  We would probably see >1mb if there were no limit.


Counterfeit:  made in imitation of something else with intent to deceive:  merriam-webster
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