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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2022026 times)
TPTB_need_war
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May 29, 2015, 02:12:49 AM
 #24961


As I said, patent trolls (on slide 3).

To be destroyed by every means at our disposal. (Reggie it isn't personal and not even ideological. Rather it is about avoiding the economic abyss ahead)

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May 29, 2015, 02:16:07 AM
 #24962

Please be aware of this guy TPTB_need_war  - he's a real piece of work.

when talking about his own super-secret new-and-improved bitcoin-killer it's all about monetization, can't release the code for free, can't tell you about how his idea somehow "fixes" everything that's wrong with bitcoin...

When talking about anyone else's project, it's gotta be open-source or else.


I think he's very duplicitous and in general I'm very suspicious of his motives.

But that's just like, my opinion, man.

"You have no moral right to rule us, nor do you possess any methods of enforcement that we have reason to fear." - John Perry Barlow, 1996
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May 29, 2015, 02:22:05 AM
 #24963


Do you want Bitcoin to fail, because you want more attention to flow to Monero?

Referring to our upthread debate, I am trying to determine if you truly have an interest in Bitcoin being only a store-of-value (with more third party risk than gold and roughly the same limited avenues for exchange), instead of shooting for widespread unit-of-exchange (albeit losing the decentralized attribute in the process)?

Again I want all-of-the-above and decentralized in the same crypto-currency. And I think I know how to do it. No trade-offs.

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May 29, 2015, 02:25:31 AM
 #24964

When talking about anyone else's project, it's gotta be open-source or else.

Did I ever say I wouldn't release open source?

There is a logic difference between not giving away ideas before giving away the source code (a.k.a. promoting vaporware, which btw I detest) then giving away the ideas with the source code, versus "giving" away (arguably other people's) ideas without the source code (and arguably lying to yourself and the public that you were the first to think of such concepts...okay Veritaseum admits they have competitors but no problem because they have patents...thank the almighty for the IP moat protection of the centralized State that oppresses us).

Many people fail to reason through all the cases of logic on each issue they ponder.

Veritaseum name = obvious ripoff of Ethereum

I have no problem with that (and it is a better name IMO) if their tech is good, and they aren't just trying to marketing spin that they are were the innovators in this space. Talk is cheap, show me the code, if you want to claim in public marketing to be the technical innovators.

I am confident I speak for the open source community in terms of those points (not claiming their support of me in general or my work).

P.S. Hang onto to that name and reputation. You may be able to reuse after this proprietary effort fails. Assuming you learn.

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May 29, 2015, 02:33:34 AM
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May 29, 2015, 02:36:20 AM
 #24966


Do you want Bitcoin to fail, because you want more attention to flow to Monero?


Saying this in bitcointalk is like walking to a group of gay people with your friend and say to him "Do you really dislike gay people?"

Its like, the stupidest and most transparent maneuver ever to move hate. The worst thing is, it almost always works.
TPTB_need_war
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May 29, 2015, 02:52:52 AM
 #24967

Its like, the stupidest and most transparent maneuver ever to move hate. The worst thing is, it almost always works.

I laughed on the first sentence, then you added this so I will respond.

I really didn't intend it to embarrass or cause hate because I assume it is obvious to everyone here that he is an XMR supporter. Does he really believe that constraining Bitcoin's onchain transaction growth is the best move for Bitcoin? Or how is it the best move for him other than creative destruction for XMR?

Trying to understand his (perhaps even subconscious) reasoning. I might learn something useful about the market.

Also this is somewhat different than bringing a friend into a gay group and then popping that question, because the person being asked was already asserting many bold claims and causing a ruckus (as am I also).

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May 29, 2015, 02:55:01 AM
 #24968

Its like, the stupidest and most transparent maneuver ever to move hate. The worst thing is, it almost always works.

I laughed on the first sentence, then you added this so I will respond.

I really didn't intend it to embarrass or cause hate because I assume it is obvious to everyone here that he is an XMR supporter. Does he really believe that constraining Bitcoin's onchain transaction growth is the best move for Bitcoin? Or how is it the best move for him other than creative destruction for XMR?

Trying to understand his (perhaps even subconscious) reasoning. I might learn something useful about the market.

Thats the point, you can't know peoples intentions over the Internet, I don't even get Gavin's.
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May 29, 2015, 03:01:40 AM
 #24969

Thats the point, you can't know peoples intentions over the Internet, I don't even get Gavin's.

We don't even need to consider whether Gavin has been compromised. He knows there is $billions of VC money depending on Bitcoin growth and he has an implicit fiduciary obligation to make sure Bitcoin scales. Decentralization was already a lost cause any way (gmaxell's delusions about CoinJoin being viable and other tech notwithstanding), so any realistic would realize that you might as well maximize the financial impact of Bitcoin in the mainstream.

The ideological aspects were lost the day v0.1 was released. We don't need to blame Gavin for what even Satoshi admitted he set in stone back on v0.1.

Disclosure: I don't think even if Bitcoin withered on the vine due to defeat of block size increase, that would stop the NWO outcome. Thus that path doesn't aid me at all, because such a non-anonymous store-of-value with such limited security (imagine the hashrate if you pull the plug on VC future) would not be a place I would store my wealth (not that I have any at the moment). I'd much rather see Bitcoin grow so we can use it as a reserve currency of altcoins. I'd much rather see the promotion and hype of crypto-currency grow because it brings more capital to the altcoins too. I'd much rather see all my predictions about Bitcoin-the-NWO-coin be demonstrated, because as I said we won't stop the NWO outcome in any case.

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May 29, 2015, 03:07:49 AM
 #24970

Thats the point, you can't know peoples intentions over the Internet, I don't even get Gavin's.

We don't even need to consider whether Gavin has been compromised. He knows there is $billions of VC money depending on Bitcoin growth and he has an implicit fiduciary obligation to make sure Bitcoin scales. Decentralization was already a lost cause any way (gmaxell's delusions about CoinJoin being viable and other tech notwithstanding), so any realistic would realize that you might as well maximize the financial impact of Bitcoin in the mainstream.

The ideological aspects were lost the day v0.1 was released. We don't need to blame Gavin for what even Satoshi admitted he set in stone back on v0.1.

Disclosure: I don't think even if Bitcoin withered on the vine due to defeat of block size increase, that would stop the NWO outcome. Thus that path doesn't aid me at all, because such a non-anonymous store-of-value with such limited security (image the hashrate if you pull the plug on VC future) would not be a place I would store my wealth (not that I have any at the moment). I'd much rather see Bitcoin grow so we can use it as a reserve currency of altcoins.

Yeah I agree, thats pretty much why I dont care anymore, just fork it already.
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May 29, 2015, 03:08:20 AM
 #24971

Thats the point, you can't know peoples intentions over the Internet, I don't even get Gavin's.

We don't even need to consider whether Gavin has been compromised. He knows there is $billions of VC money depending on Bitcoin growth and he has an implicit fiduciary obligation to make sure Bitcoin scales. Decentralization was already a lost cause any way (gmaxell's delusions about CoinJoin being viable and other tech notwithstanding), so any realistic would realize that you might as well maximize the financial impact of Bitcoin in the mainstream.

The ideological aspects were lost the day v0.1 was released. We don't need to blame Gavin for what even Satoshi admitted he set in stone back on v0.1.

Disclosure: I don't think even if Bitcoin withered on the vine due to defeat of block size increase, that would stop the NWO outcome. Thus that path doesn't aid me at all, because such a non-anonymous store-of-value with such limited security (imagine the hashrate if you pull the plug on VC future) would not be a place I would store my wealth (not that I have any at the moment). I'd much rather see Bitcoin grow so we can use it as a reserve currency of altcoins. I'd much rather see the promotion and hype of crypto-currency grow because it brings more capital to the altcoins too. I'd much rather see all my predictions about Bitcoin-the-NWO-coin be demonstrated.

TPTBCoin depends on BTC
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May 29, 2015, 03:22:04 AM
 #24972

I really think there is a fast and simple constraint on UTXO bloat which can be done:
Allowing the existing free transaction space to be used for tx which reduce UTXOs (i.e. negative delta) instead of being based upon the number of days destroyed, which was to encourage old coins being spent, something less important.

i think that's a really good idea.

from reading about how different wallets choose from different UTXO strategies to include in tx's (i think they all do it differently), this could be a no brainer which could help immensely.
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May 29, 2015, 03:27:19 AM
 #24973

The problem with Bitcoin is that so many people didn't get on the train.  So now they hope it will fail so they can board a new train -- Monero, Etherium, whatever.  And they go onto these forums concern trolling as if they are actually Bitcoin proponents.  But suck it up. There is no other train available to you -- the next train will have exclusive membership and will actually be a rocketship (think Apple ipay) deployed simultaneously onto millions of POS, default installation in your phone, automatically connected with checking accounts for several major banks etc.

It is the analogous  non-choice that we will be offered with the one-world reserve currency:

1. US dollar reserve currency hegemony over the world
2. One-world reserve currency with every nation sending a representative

These two choices are framed as being different, but in reality they are the same outcome. In both cases, the global bankster cartel is in control.

Ditto Bitcoin.

Any way, I support moving forward using Bitcoin to destroy existing banking systems and government issued currencies, and moving the world to a global digital currency (albeit I assert ultimately controlled by the banksters). Because the alternative is no better (as you point out) and at least by moving forward we bring more capital into crypto-currency (including altcoin experiments).

I agree with you there will not be another train in terms of scaling a crypto-currency to the masses before 2033. Bitcoin has this locked up already.

I do believe it may be possible to identify a market that is large but not the (lower 50% of the power-law distributed wealth curve) masses which Bitcoin can not reach and which an altcoin can. I am 80% sure about this. I don't care if the other attempts have fallen short. That doesn't rule out someone with appropriate insight creating one that hits the sweet spot. And the goal is not to topple Bitcoin (let the lower 50% have their pacifier to suck on). My thesis has been the upper 0.1% are going down with the lower 50% into the NWO. The Knowledge Age will rise up and take over by 2033. Let them have their Bitcoin in the interim. Smaller things grow faster. There is exponential growth available to the right altcoin.



Australia is a member of the Five Eyes nations.

Indeed this shows how desperate they are. As with Napster, they will just drive the movement to anonymity.

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May 29, 2015, 03:42:21 AM
 #24974


The problem with Bitcoin is that so many people didn't get on the train.  So now they hope it will fail so they can board a new train -- Monero, Etherium, whatever.  And they go onto these forums concern trolling as if they are actually Bitcoin proponents.  But suck it up. There is no other train available to you -- the next train Bitcoin ramp will have exclusive membership and will actually be a rocketship (think Apple ipay) deployed simultaneously onto millions of POS, default installation in your phone, automatically connected with checking accounts for several major banks etc.






ftfy
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May 29, 2015, 03:47:51 AM
 #24975

I don't understand your comparison to blockchain.info.

Blockchain.info centralizes your wallet, but you control your private keys (server can't decrypt them) and all the encryption is done client side. Reggie is pointing out that the user of his wallet controls his private keys and signs transactions client-side and I suppose he is asserting that any the centralized functions (e.g. the data feed or the Facilitator) of his system do not impinge on the user's autonomous control.

Thanks for chipping in! Your other post ("centralized oracle") confirmed my suspicion. I don't share TPTB_need_war's view that that fact makes veritaseum centralized bullshit, though. I suspect it might be a great system.

In my posts prior this one from you, I did not state the oracle as my reason for suspecting centralized bullshit. I specifically mentioned for example patent trolling, apparently attempts at proprietary lockin (not just a protocol), and lack of open source. You appear to be entirely dismissing the social engineering aspects.

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May 29, 2015, 03:51:44 AM
 #24976

most of the comments in this UTXO thread don't seem to see it as too much of a problem.  the predictable concern trolls, like gmax, are in there as expected but the vast majority seem positive on dealing with UTXO growth:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/35asg6/gavin_andresen_utxo_uhoh/
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May 29, 2015, 03:59:02 AM
 #24977

The reason we have to worry about miners producing "too large" blocks is because they don't pay for all the P2P network resources they use (neither do end users).

All the arguments we have about resource consumption are derived from that primary design flaw.

If we fix it, then we won't have to argue any more.

Any mechanism you envision must also incorporate the fact that if collusion and monopolistic strategies are viable, they will be deployed.

Miners and pools have an incentive to include as many txns as they can get paid for and scale up the resource requirements to drive small miners to pools. So the community got up in arms about GHash.io, so no problem just hide your ownership behind a Sybil attack on the pools (that is surely the case today) so the community is either ignorantly pacified or can play Whack-A-Mole.

Even if you made txns free or negative cost (miners pay spenders), the incentive of the prior paragraph remains.

There is fundamental design flaw here that can't be fixed without radical overhaul of the design of PoW.

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May 29, 2015, 04:22:47 AM
 #24978


Do you want Bitcoin to fail, because you want more attention to flow to Monero?

Referring to our upthread debate, I am trying to determine if you truly have an interest in Bitcoin being only a store-of-value (with more third party risk than gold and roughly the same limited avenues for exchange), instead of shooting for widespread unit-of-exchange (albeit losing the decentralized attribute in the process)?

Again I want all-of-the-above and decentralized in the same crypto-currency. And I think I know how to do it. No trade-offs.

Of course I don't want Bitcoin to fail.  Could you possibly more dishonest and uncharitable?

If trade-offs did not exit, there would be no tension between Bitcoin (The Currency) functioning as both a store-of-value and widespread unit-of-exchange.

But here in the real world, bound by the pesky laws of thermodynamics, trade-offs do and will always exit.

The UXTO set is only the current bottleneck for scaling BTC to Visa++ levels of retail usage.  There are many others waiting in the wings (*cough, 10 min. block time, cough*).

Bitcoin's Mother-of-All-Blockchains is simply not the right tool for real-time retail POS interfaces.  Bitcoin's Mother-of-All-Blockchains is a back-office tool.

As for your VaporCoin, please either show us the whitepaper or stop hyping/teasing/marketing/pimping it.


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whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
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May 29, 2015, 04:25:22 AM
 #24979

I've been solving blocks on the BTC train longer than you, and (like gmaxwell, tacotime, etc) am perfectly capable of simultaneously riding the XMR train as well.

Should have read this post before asking my question about his motives.

BTC's "intrinsic value" is the fact is fulfills Aristotle's criteria for good money better than anything else (except Monero).

The BTC price is rising in terms of the last 5/4/3 years.  Zero to $250, by way of $1200.  Excellent performance by any definition.

The price rises when more people act on the optimistic zoomed out view than a cherry-picked local retrace.

You apparently have fooled yourself into believing the market performance of Bitcoin had nothing to do with the promotion of Bitcoin by the mainstream media (and thus implicitly by the banksters who own the mainstream media) or that you believe the MSM can be induced to cover a grassroots, virally growing phenomenon w/o the blessing of the banksters. I assert that if you were to go against their aims and goals (which you won't be able to do any way, Gavincoin has already won), then they would pull the plug on your fork and you would learn about the reverse wealth effect (the fact that the market cap != the amount of capital invested in the coin and this levered effect is a snowball uphill and downhill).

The synergy of believing Bitcoin is an improved money along with the prospect of future scaling of Bitcoin to the world's txns, is what drives wealth effect you love. Take away one, you lose the other. I do hope you try to fork Gavincoin.

The smart money already knows all about the hard UXTO limit, and is therefor investing in systems built on the core blockchain which offload tx pressure to sidechains and other off-main-chain whatnot.

If one had unlimited number of side-chains, this would fundamentally scale even without changing the fundamental design of the ledger for those side-chains. Those side-chains might even be non-public and/or non-decentralized ledgers (and perhaps even fractional reserves, etc).

I don't consider that option as viable is because currency requires a fungible unit-of-exchange (although there is an argument against this with real-time exchange between side-chains, which is an argument I presented ... but not sure if this is realistic or not). So side-chains won't help scale to the transaction volume of the world. We must fix the fundamental decentralized crypto design, or accept centralized morass (which btw won't scale either so that is yet another reason the NWO coin is going to be a dying paradigm...to be toppled by 2033).

An unlimited number of non-fungible side-chains might be useful for smart contracts but not for money.

As for the Gresham's Law.

Yes, I do want people to HLOD their BTC.  Hoarding helps the price in terms of fiat trash rise, and invigorates the beneficial feedback loops driving adoption which ultimately result in a race condition that breaks petrodollar hegemony.  It's the Cartmanland principle: if people can't have Bitcoin they will want it more than ever.

As much as the people jealously crave platinum, plutonium, and Astatine.  Roll Eyes

I specifically didn't mention gold because it is shiny and dense and thus has other appealing attributes for people besides its rare monetary value.

Quote
This ship is going to hit an iceberg, stop dead in its tracks and start leaking water as soon as the 1MB limit is hit consistently.

Bro, do you even Nassim Taleb?  

If you did, you'd already know antifragile systems require adversity to grow stronger (BTW, BTC is not analogous to The Titanic).

Conceptually I agree. But realize that creative destruction of species is often a result of competition in evolution.


The UXTO set is only the current bottleneck for scaling BTC to Visa++ levels of retail usage.  There are many others waiting in the wings (*cough, 10 min. block time, cough*).

Bitcoin's Mother-of-All-Blockchains is simply not the right tool for real-time retail POS interfaces.  Bitcoin's Mother-of-All-Blockchains is a back-office tool.

Okay so considering the trade-offs we have today to choose between (even VaporCoin was available, it would still be irrelevant to the choice made for Bitcoin), I have refuted side-chains. What is this back-office Bitcoin going to be used for then?

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May 29, 2015, 05:35:51 AM
 #24980

Pretty bold claims from Middleton, but I have tried it and it works, at least in a beta phase, not vapor phase or proof of concept phase, but beta phase.  You can trade all tickers that Cypherdoc mentions on here.  

I still don't understand how the tickers are fed into veritaseum to settle the bets. Can you explain that?

Saying "it works" without understanding how it works is short-sighted.

Twice or thrice I tried to find technical documentation (wading through all the promotional crap) and was stifled, so I assumed it is centralized bullshit.

That's my assumption, too... until it's explained how it works and it works in a way I can trust (which I doubt, but I've been wrong before).

If it's Reggie typing in 50000 tickers every hour then there might be no "counterparty risk", but there's plenty of other risk.

EDIT: I PMed him, maybe he'll show up here and explain. If not, it hardens my assumption.

See slide 14 here https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1UxB33wp1rCncBtPbuzQbkS1SZg_fjCTNMqu-wZGii-o/pub?start=true&loop=false&delayms=10000&slide=id.g7b8415063_38

Thanks for chipping in! Your other post ("centralized oracle") confirmed my suspicion. I don't share TPTB_need_war's view that that fact makes veritaseum centralized bullshit, though. I suspect it might be a great system. I love the fact that it lives on the bitcoin blockchain and has no other token. I also love that there's no counterparty risk and in addition I'm guessing it ties up some bitcoins in contracts and I do like that, too.

About the "other risk": where is the oracle on your server getting the tickers from? I guess that process should be made transparent at some point so we can at least know how it could be manipulated.

Certainly the incentive is high for some rogue employee somewhere to falsify some ticker feed you're pulling for just long enough for a large bet to be settled in his favor, no? Clearly there's noone capable/willing to fix something like that after the fact.


Only the data feed is centralized, everything else is fully distributed, which is better than centralized (reference the first link that I put up which explains this). A decentralized data feed just wouldn't work and it would be taking a step backwards from the current legacy system unless and until we have more activity than the centralized exchanges. Securities data fees are commodity items, and very easy to corroborate, very difficult to get away with in terms of fraud and/or manipulation.
As for someone in my camp manipulating a data feed, he/she would have a hard time doing so (we get them from 3rd parties) and even a harder time concealing it, and even a harder time than that getting away with it (each client plus the server has the ability to audit, although that is not implemented yet). You'd have to somehow change a data feed, hack into 3 disparate systems to inject that false data feed (whose real feed is freely availalble to all) and then hope nobody notices.
As it stands now, I believe our system is safer than the status quo by a long shot.

I understand. Thanks again for clearing some things up.

For the second time I will try to get my hands dirty with this. I have the client installed and the wallet backed up. Now I need some newbie type of help. I checked veritaseum.com for documentation and found the quick start video. It's hard to dig through the promotional talk and I stopped midway for now.

Is there some kind of written documentation somewhere on how to use the client and formulate orders? Is there a support chat on irc or a bitcointalk thread? I don't want to spam this beauty here.

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