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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1977055 times)
Adrian-x
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May 30, 2015, 06:19:03 PM
 #25141

You're over thinking this, we're just recovering from the invention (social hack) of PR as defined by Edward Bernays.

I am writing about an immutable attribute of human society since Mesopotamia and you cite a man that was born in 1928.

No. I'm talking about Plato and the Allegory of the Cave, the TPTB at every reset (like in the Matrix) co-opted technology and refine the management algorithm, we're at the metaphorical 7th reset. (To fit in your narrative it's been happening since before Mesopotamia.) Edward Bernays, is just the inventor of the technology that was used to co-opt the system at the last reset.

The wisdom is in the crowd, in the 70s PR was used to disrupt the wisdom of the group so it could be managed, and before that it was the use of recordings and radio exploited to perfection by the Nazis.

It's not that people want what you think they want, you are making a judgment based on a technology that is being circumvented by the internet and knowledge age..

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TPTB_need_war
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May 30, 2015, 06:19:52 PM
 #25142

TPTB, when you get confused...

Your prior post demonstrated how confused you are. I am contemplating whether it is worth even trying to unravel your numerous delusions. Might be better to just stop. Appears hopeless to educate you.

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May 30, 2015, 06:23:34 PM
 #25143

It's not that people want what you think they want, you are making a judgment based on a technology that is being circumvented.

Whether or not a Knowledge Age could alter the incentives people had as serfs is irrelevant to the chasm in front of us on this reset, which Bitcoin does not have the immutable attributes to cross.

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May 30, 2015, 06:26:09 PM
 #25144

TPTB, when you get confused...

Your prior post demonstrated how confused you are. I am contemplating whether it is worth even trying to unravel your numerous delusions. Might be better to just stop. Appears hopeless to educate you.

i really don't even have to try.  the evidence is everywhere today.

banks guilty of currency manipulation, banks guilty of Libor manipulation, banks guilty of gold and silver manipulation, banks guilty of money laundering, banks guilty of drug running, banks guilty of not lending, banks guilty of hoarding QE in excess reserves, banks guilty of collusion, banks guilty of outrageous self compensation, banks guilty of illegal lobbying, banks guilty of being opaque, banks guilty of not submitting to audits, banks guilty of liar loans, banks guilty of needless bailouts, etc, etc.
Adrian-x
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May 30, 2015, 06:27:41 PM
 #25145

It's not that people want what you think they want, you are making a judgment based on a technology that is being circumvented.

Whether or not a Knowledge Age could alter the incentives people had as serfs is irrelevant to the chasm in front of us on this reset, which Bitcoin does not have the immutable attributes to cross.

We get there with the collective wisdom of the crowd, not by a central authority, Bitcoin is just the last key to completing  the internet.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
TPTB_need_war
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May 30, 2015, 06:34:19 PM
 #25146

It's not that people want what you think they want, you are making a judgment based on a technology that is being circumvented.

Whether or not a Knowledge Age could alter the incentives people had as serfs is irrelevant to the chasm in front of us on this reset, which Bitcoin does not have the immutable attributes to cross.

We get there with the collective wisdom of the crowd, not by a central authority, Bitcoin is just the last key to completing  the internet.

You are going to reeducate all the 60+ age Boomers (who dominate the political demographics in the West) how to become Knowledge Age workers and abandon their bankrupt retirement plans, all within the next 3 years which is the ETA for the cliff dive into the chasm?

Of course not.

The individual incentives of the People who are voting can not align with your vision of global optimization within the timeframe of the rapidly approaching event horizon of economic collapse and totalitarianism.

Edit: Oxford U. in 2012 predicted 47% of existing jobs would be displaced by automation within 20 years. Thus a majority of the working age population are not ready for the transition to a meritocratic Knowledge Age. Bitcoin can't accelerate this process of adjustment, thus the approaching chasm is unavoidable.

Reggie Middleton
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May 30, 2015, 06:39:43 PM
 #25147

...

it's just based on the general concept of a swap thus possibly quite different from what many are used to. Think in terms of buying one exposure and paying for it with another. Use tickers to describe each exposure you'd like to buy (receive) and sell (pay) and voila, you've created your first swap contract! Don't use time based tickers that contain dates (ex. options or futures). If you want a high leverage contract based on an underlying or an index, you can use a ticker to access that underlying or index directly (ex 10 year treasury) then use our leverage option to dial in as much gearing as your stomach can handle. Its digital, and its unlimited (theoretically up to 10,000x). This way you avoid theta and time decay issues inherent in options, as well has delta and gamma and sensitivity to volatility. As I mentioned to the guy in the previous post these are swaps, not options. Options are not well suited for bitcoin speculation due to their sensitivity to volatility and bitcoins extreme volatility.

...

This is interesting to me, because conceptually I visualize that replacing a thresholding criteria (which can have aliasing error) with a criteria that is based on an average state over time thus I assume (without digging into the math) removes the aliasing error and thus the unnecessary carrying cost of implied volatility for options. I am not familiar with swaps nor have I studied the math for Black-Scholes implied volatility. Note to self to dig into this concept in the future. This is very important to me if it applies to the carry cost of hedging altcoin volatility.

Reggie afair this is not succinctly communicated on your company website.

Maybe you should clarify it for us "N00bs". Exactly what does HFT have to do with digital OTC swaps, particularly P2P swaps. For the life of me, I can't figure it out and as far as I know I believe I created them.

After several tries of attempting to digest your website in a reasonably quick perusal, the distinction about the focus on swaps was not communicated to me. Normally I am known to have in the 99th percentile of reading comprehension (perhaps will not be the case from here forward because I am skimming and rushing). Perhaps that is because I am not a trader and not familiar with swaps, thus the word takes on its general definition for me, not the financial derivative. So is it my fault or your communication style? I dunno but I am betting on the latter.

I've tried to watch some Youtubes of you speaking in the past, and you do not communicate efficiently to me. I get tired of waiting for you to get to the point. Your writing style here in this forum is more direct to the point.

Note that HFT was not the only concern I enumerated nor are all my concerns (as expressed in "etc") bounded by the enumerated items. I was speaking paradigmatically about the "devil is in the details" and the inherent risks of closed source.


He is a troll, Reggie.

You apparently don't realize that expressing an opinion does not make a person a troll. But calling a person who expresses an opinion a troll, makes you one.

Can you make any point?
I believe you are making my point for me. A) all financial services organizations of any stature have closed sourced clients. B) Even if I did open source the client (and I am not opposed to it, I just need the resources to manage it) you have just admitted that you don't have the expertise to ascertain what risks you were taking through the open source code to begin with. Those familiar with the swaps concept should be able to recognize it off the bat. If you didn't recognize it, it's really not a big deal because I didn't design the product to be used solely by financial engineers and derivatives traders - hence the simplistic interface. My point is it seems as if you are willing to take extreme risk financially as long the client is open sourced. This doesn't compute. Financial institutions have ripped off many more people through financial machinations than software concerns have, trust me on that. Even if the client was open sourced, the bulk of the business logic is still on the server.
I'd love to walk you through the whole system. I feel it's quite impressive, and I believe you will agree with me once you've used it.


*Link Removed* : The Future of Money! A "Smart", Zero Trust, Peer to Peer, Decentralized derivative layer on top of Bitcoin!!!
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TPTB_need_war
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May 30, 2015, 06:42:39 PM
 #25148

Reggie, open-source maximizes the division-of-labor. I don't need to be the expert on swaps to trust the Linus Law, "given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow".

Open-source is very effective at refining due to the Inverse Commons, but not at leadership. For leadership, you need a Linus Torvalds.

I am not asserting what you built is worthless nor even less than impressive. I hope the community can work with you to add value to what ever you've brought of value to the community. And I do hope all parties can profit, most ideally would be within the paradigms that are sustainable in this new Knowledge Age of meritocracy ahead. We have a chasm to cross along the way, so I don't want to presume that certain closed-source business models are not viable now. I am not making such an accusation nor claiming the requisite omniscience.

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May 30, 2015, 06:52:56 PM
 #25149

TPTB, when you get confused...

Your prior post demonstrated how confused you are. I am contemplating whether it is worth even trying to unravel your numerous delusions. Might be better to just stop. Appears hopeless to educate you.

i really don't even have to try.  the evidence is everywhere today.

banks guilty of currency manipulation, banks guilty of Libor manipulation, banks guilty of gold and silver manipulation, banks guilty of money laundering, banks guilty of drug running, banks guilty of not lending, banks guilty of hoarding QE in excess reserves, banks guilty of collusion, banks guilty of outrageous self compensation, banks guilty of illegal lobbying, banks guilty of being opaque, banks guilty of not submitting to audits, banks guilty of liar loans, banks guilty of needless bailouts, etc, etc.

You don't even see that you are writing points that are irrelevant to the points I made.

TPTB_need_war
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May 30, 2015, 07:25:48 PM
 #25150

The People demand fractional reserves debt. If you deny this fact, then let's go down that rabbit hole such as using the 1800s as an example where the People demanded debt from the private, decentralized banks. Otherwise I assume you accept this fact.

you've got it backwards.  debt has been imposed by bankers.  they've tricked everyone into assuming more debt by manipulating interest rates downwards esp since 1980, the last high of 17%.  this is accomplished by money printing to buy UST's.

In the 1800s we had decentralized private banks who were incentivized to issue fractional gold reserves to feed demand for loans by the People.

Fractional reserves exist as a natural feature of the economy where demand for loans and supply of fractional reserves meet (Economics 101).

Even if you argued that killing all the banksters in that era would solve the problem, another set of banks would popup to serve the demand for debt by the People.

I probably won't attempt to unravel your other numerous misconceptions of the issues.

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May 30, 2015, 08:01:04 PM
 #25151

TPTB, when you get confused...

Your prior post demonstrated how confused you are. I am contemplating whether it is worth even trying to unravel your numerous delusions. Might be better to just stop. Appears hopeless to educate you.

i really don't even have to try.  the evidence is everywhere today.

banks guilty of currency manipulation, banks guilty of Libor manipulation, banks guilty of gold and silver manipulation, banks guilty of money laundering, banks guilty of drug running, banks guilty of not lending, banks guilty of hoarding QE in excess reserves, banks guilty of collusion, banks guilty of outrageous self compensation, banks guilty of illegal lobbying, banks guilty of being opaque, banks guilty of not submitting to audits, banks guilty of liar loans, banks guilty of needless bailouts, etc, etc.

You don't even see that you are writing points that are irrelevant to the points I made.

You don't even see that you made no points whatsoever.
Adrian-x
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May 30, 2015, 08:28:34 PM
 #25152

It's not that people want what you think they want, you are making a judgment based on a technology that is being circumvented.

Whether or not a Knowledge Age could alter the incentives people had as serfs is irrelevant to the chasm in front of us on this reset, which Bitcoin does not have the immutable attributes to cross.

We get there with the collective wisdom of the crowd, not by a central authority, Bitcoin is just the last key to completing  the internet.

You are going to reeducate all the 60+ age Boomers (who dominate the political demographics in the West) how to become Knowledge Age workers and abandon their bankrupt retirement plans, all within the next 3 years which is the ETA for the cliff dive into the chasm?

Of course not.

The individual incentives of the People who are voting can not align with your vision of global optimization within the timeframe of the rapidly approaching event horizon of economic collapse and totalitarianism.

Edit: Oxford U. in 2012 predicted 47% of existing jobs would be displaced by automation within 20 years. Thus a majority of the working age population are not ready for the transition to a meritocratic Knowledge Age. Bitcoin can't accelerate this process of adjustment, thus the approaching chasm is unavoidable.

We're immigrating to the internet, all boomers welcome. Please purchase your tokens at an exchange today.
Co-opt Bitcoin and we still get a proverbial "New World" destroy Bitcoin and it may take another hundred years before we get another opportunity.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
Erdogan
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May 30, 2015, 09:46:43 PM
 #25153

now that we have money types that can navigate around these monopolies

Which money can resist takeover by centralization?

Sorry I don't see any such money that exists, not even gold.

Bitcoin has resisted takeover so far. A monopoly can not exist in the free market, there is always someone who eats from the edge of your plate. Monopoly can exist only by using violence. I don't see that it can exist in mining. The competition is merciless. The loss of productivity from unfreeness will immediately remove governmental miners from the scene.

You seem to believe the powers that shouldn't be have divine capabilities. They don't, in fact they are far less competent than the winning actors in the free market. They have to refill their resources all the time, by theft, and they only have the resources the public gives them.

Have some faith.






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May 31, 2015, 02:15:35 AM
 #25154

now that we have money types that can navigate around these monopolies

Which money can resist takeover by centralization?

Sorry I don't see any such money that exists, not even gold.

Bitcoin has resisted takeover so far. A monopoly can not exist in the free market, there is always someone who eats from the edge of your plate. Monopoly can exist only by using violence. I don't see that it can exist in mining. The competition is merciless. The loss of productivity from unfreeness will immediately remove governmental miners from the scene.

Have some faith.

 Huh

Faith in what? Faith in ignoring my analysis?

Have you completely ignored all my upthread posts detailing how the mining in Bitcoin is hopelessly trending to centralized?

Do I need to resummarize all the various reasons? You've forgotten for example the 21 Inc plan, the ongoing Sybil attack on pools, etc..

I just don't understand how I can write 100s of posts, not be refuted and yet some still pretend I didn't write the posts.

Groupthink? Selective comprehension? (difference of opinion due to refusal to comprehend the lack of refutation of my analysis, or reservations about the falsifiability and proof of my analysis)

You seem to believe the powers that shouldn't be have divine capabilities. They don't, in fact they are far less competent than the winning actors in the free market. They have to refill their resources all the time, by theft, and they only have the resources the public gives them.

Bitcoin (the Gavincoin fork) will die with the death of the NWO paradigm. That paradigm will enslave the people who can't make the shift the Knowledge Age, and those in that system will parasite on themselves until they have destroyed themselves. The NWO paradigm is a slow burn of eugenics. I am proposing an anonymous, decentralized crypto-currency to service the fledgling Knowledge Age and leave Bitcoin for the NWO which is was designed for. In the Economic Devastation and One-world reserve currency threads I have detailed my expectation for a bifurcation of the economy into NWO masses (stuck in the Old World Industrial Age, high fixed capital, socialism paradigm) and Knowledge Age future.

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May 31, 2015, 02:24:00 AM
 #25155

it's called Metcalfe's Law.  "value" of the network is squared by every new user.  iCE would rather keep it strangled down to him and his Myrcea buddies.


Not every new user needs direct access to the Mother Blockchain:


I think you've drunk the SideChain cool aid, and now your salary is dependent on the views of your employer.

It's not about what you think other people need (we have central controls to manage that), it's about individuals having freedom to make the best subjective choice.

I would think just like you if I had a product that solved the problem like SC does. In fact I was pushing in the same direction until  Peter Tod released this video. https://youtu.be/cZp7UGgBR0I, I agreed with him for all of 1 day a year ago and Justice I think pointed out very concisely the problems of limiting money velocity was not good for bitcoin. (he was the only critical voice at the time.)

I hope this does not pop up on Reddit.

Interesting. Could you link to that thing where Justus argues about money velocity? I'm not familiar with that.

...

Also, funny you mentioned Peter Todd, he and Gavin were arguing about Blockchain size today.

https://letstalkbitcoin.com/blog/post/lets-talk-bitcoin-217-the-bitcoin-block-size-discussion

I wasn't quite sure what he was talking about when he mentioned "hub and spoke" solutions, but after watching the video, I can visualize what he's getting at, and I think it's the way to go, maybe with side chains, but maybe not. Maybe you could just use alt coins? We've certainly got enough of them, and they don't seem to be going away any time soon.

I think as long as we can remove regulatory barriers to exchanges by using real time transparency audits to prove reserves, we can drive down the friction of exchange. Each alt coin could act as a hub in his model, and bitcoin is the back end clearing house where less frequent, high value transactions take place.


"You have no moral right to rule us, nor do you possess any methods of enforcement that we have reason to fear." - John Perry Barlow, 1996
iCEBREAKER
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May 31, 2015, 02:42:48 AM
 #25156

lol, the network is STILL choked off after all this time.  i don't blame the short sightedness of the guy who just sold us off down to $232 given how strident iCE and his buddies have been about making any progress whatsoever on this block size issue.  i think it's a big mistake as it just gives the rest of us cheaper coins to accumulate as i think a block size increase is inevitable and soon as a result of the stress test:

"Strident?"

I've always been prone to rhetorical bombast; you make it sound as if my writing on the block size issue is some kind of unique outburst.   Cheesy

A better example of 'suddenly strident' is Gavin's backstabbing of his our core devs.  He's initiating a coup because he could not browbeat muster facts and logic sufficient to convince EVEN ONE other core dev.

The existing consensus of committers against 20mb blocks.  But Gavin will only respect a consensus which agrees with him, which is the definition of "strident."   Wink

This 'my way or the highway' stunt is beyond merely strident.  It is an internal attack on Bitcoin, originating from the very top.

Don't blame little old *me* for the stagnant price; instead look to the brain of the fish now rotting from the head down.

This 'stress test' or 'occupy 1mb protest' has only reinforced both sides' confirmation bias.  It changed nobody's mind.

My (and Lukejr's) POV is that it proved the network can cope just fine with being relatively busy or (somewhat bogged down) without chocking.

It is beyond me how that result in any way implies the need to increase the load until something (probably UXTO buffers) begin to degrade or break.

The network is not chocked at zero tps, it's only breathing a little faster than its previous languid pace.  Good exercise, keeps the cardio healthy.   Tongue

Please calm down and stop exaggerating.

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Core GUI - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }
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Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004
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May 31, 2015, 03:04:20 AM
 #25157

This MassesVCGavinNWOCoin vs. DelusionalEarlyAdopterGoldbugCoin battle is going to be interesting.

I still don't see how the latter can expect to win. There will be a giant sucking sound of capital fleeing the latter for the former. The latter has nearly no market nor ecosystem to propose after the media, VCs, GHash.io, etc pull their support. I already refuted the side coins delusion upthread and there was no retort offered.

A better example of 'suddenly strident' is Gavin's backstabbing of his our core devs.  He's initiating a coup because he could not browbeat muster facts and logic sufficient to convince EVEN ONE other core dev.

The existing consensus of committers against 20mb blocks.  But Gavin will only respect a consensus which agrees with him, which is the definition of "strident."   Wink

This 'my way or the highway' stunt is beyond merely strident.  It is an internal attack on Bitcoin, originating from the very top.

Don't blame little old *me* for the stagnant price; instead look to the brain of the fish now rotting from the head down.

You've got that transposed. The core devs are holding the larger market and capital hostage. The masses don't give a fuck about decentralization. The masses are owned by Peter Thiel et al, and thus by proxy they want scaling which is only possible in Bitcoin with centralization (notwithstanding the side chain delusion which I already refutred).

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May 31, 2015, 03:14:43 AM
 #25158

There is no stopping the coming economic collapse. It can be delayed but not prevented. The mass populace will look to the governments and banksters to stop the collapse that they have engineered. The Hagealian Dialectic meal plan is serving sheep for dinner and it will be an all you can eat buffet.

The new Knowledge Age will never arrive in time because the vast majority do not want it. Also it you are thinking that today's youth will adopt the new paradigm think again. This generation of youth is the most brain dead comatose generation to ever come along. They've got smart Devices that allow them to air their life story on social media. They are a lost cause. They are slaves to the machine.

I find your lack of faith disturbing...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=share&v=fW8amMCVAJQ


And, whose generation did my generation have to be parented from again?  Roll Eyes

I saw that video years ago.

I was that dancing guy. That is me. The guy who isn't inhibited and shows up at the party and gets everyone off the couch and onto the dance floor.

Leaders lead. It is just something innate. We aren't afraid. We are confident that we know what is fun or better and just go for it. Sometimes we fail, but don't sulk and just get up and try again.

The youth are more capable of making a transition in the sense that they are young and more flexible, but coinits is also correct in the sense that such transitions take time because there is no way for leaders like me or the dancing guy to interact with all the people in real life. In reality what happens is that any mass movements are co-opted by the existing groupthink inertia (political correctness, powers-that-be, etc).

In short, there is a difference between what I am confident I can do in personal interaction and what I know will scale. Seems many Bitcoin supporters can't make that crucial distinction.

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May 31, 2015, 03:30:00 AM
 #25159

The People demand fractional reserves debt. If you deny this fact, then let's go down that rabbit hole such as using the 1800s as an example where the People demanded debt from the private, decentralized banks. Otherwise I assume you accept this fact.

you've got it backwards.  debt has been imposed by bankers.  they've tricked everyone into assuming more debt by manipulating interest rates downwards esp since 1980, the last high of 17%.  this is accomplished by money printing to buy UST's.

Declining interest rates is all a trick from the banksters and not a natural trend for 5000 years.  Roll Eyes

2. Previously, savings without knowledge were able to provide a positive return on capital, in the 1700s this was about 5% but has steadily declined. Now it is hardly possible to get more than 2%. Taxation by inflation (capital "gains") is the main way how this is accomplished lately.



How can I debate with a person who is implicitly disingenuous because he is ignorant of some important aspects of history. I don't have any personal animosity towards you (so far). I am not saying you are completely ignorant.

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May 31, 2015, 03:51:26 AM
 #25160

So iCE. Are you working for Blockstream?
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