Bitcoin Forum
December 03, 2016, 03:49:34 PM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.13.1  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Poll
Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

Pages: « 1 ... 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 [165] 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 ... 1560 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1803725 times)
Melbustus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1554



View Profile
September 25, 2012, 10:23:56 PM
 #3281

i don't know about you but i'm worried about the integrity of my own coins which is why i'm going to US them.  and i bought them way before $1000.  i do know that if i'm worried, everyone else is too.
...What about the flipside argument? If there really *is* widespread fraudulent physical gold (say, more than 15% of what's in private hands), that instantly reduces what people thought the supply of physical gold was, therefore bumping the price?? ...

I think the flip side is simply that fakes wouldn't be becoming more prolific after the bubble has popped and the price is on the way down.  I think its much more likely that fakes start to flood the market as we build up to the real bubble top.


I don't know...how much does it cost to make a fake? Seems to me that it would still be profitable at much lower prices. And as someone else pointed out, fakes have indeed been happening for decades. People are just realizing it more now.

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
But Bitcointalk & /r/bitcoin are heavily censored. bitco.in/forum, forum.bitcoin.com, and /r/btc are open.
Best info on Casascius coins: http://spotcoins.com/casascius
1480780174
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1480780174

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1480780174
Reply with quote  #2

1480780174
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1480780174
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1480780174

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1480780174
Reply with quote  #2

1480780174
Report to moderator
1480780174
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1480780174

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1480780174
Reply with quote  #2

1480780174
Report to moderator
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
September 25, 2012, 10:33:57 PM
 #3282

Yeah, I was gonna say... It should be possible to get/build an appropriate ultrasound tester for $100-$300. I have some equipment I'll be experimenting with, and some Caltech-educated EE friends that should be able to help out... I'm pretty confident this can be done cheaply.

i'd doubt that b/c you need a sensitive probe with variable frequency adjustment for different metals and a console with display screen. 
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
September 25, 2012, 10:53:59 PM
 #3283

i don't know about you but i'm worried about the integrity of my own coins which is why i'm going to US them.  and i bought them way before $1000.  i do know that if i'm worried, everyone else is too.


Yeah, people are definitely going to be pretty worried about their physical... But I suspect *most* (in private hands, at least) will be found to be legit. Cheap testing equipment will proliferate a bit, and this will blow over. Obviously, I could be wrong, but these things generally tend to get blown out of proportion...

You're looking at this as really bearish for gold. What about the flipside argument? If there really *is* widespread fraudulent physical gold (say, more than 15% of what's in private hands), that instantly reduces what people thought the supply of physical gold was, therefore bumping the price?? Maybe this just causes a big spread to develop between paper and (legit)physical... ?

Disclosure: I'm neither bullish nor bearish on gold. Too much variance on all the variables, leading to statistical noise in aggregate, in my opinion... Bitcoin, on the other hand, I'm pretty bullish on. And yeah, good luck filling bitcoin with tungsten.

imagine if just one Bitcoin was found to be filled with "tungsten" metaphorically; it would destroy the entire Bitcoin concept.

now you can say that it would be different somehow for gold or silver if "just 5%"  or even "1%" were fake b/c of its thousand year history but do you really think that will be the case?  how many of you can stand to have 5% of your stash to be fake?
SkRRJyTC
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 966


View Profile
September 25, 2012, 11:01:49 PM
 #3284

i don't know about you but i'm worried about the integrity of my own coins which is why i'm going to US them.  and i bought them way before $1000.  i do know that if i'm worried, everyone else is too.


Yeah, people are definitely going to be pretty worried about their physical... But I suspect *most* (in private hands, at least) will be found to be legit. Cheap testing equipment will proliferate a bit, and this will blow over. Obviously, I could be wrong, but these things generally tend to get blown out of proportion...

You're looking at this as really bearish for gold. What about the flipside argument? If there really *is* widespread fraudulent physical gold (say, more than 15% of what's in private hands), that instantly reduces what people thought the supply of physical gold was, therefore bumping the price?? Maybe this just causes a big spread to develop between paper and (legit)physical... ?

Disclosure: I'm neither bullish nor bearish on gold. Too much variance on all the variables, leading to statistical noise in aggregate, in my opinion... Bitcoin, on the other hand, I'm pretty bullish on. And yeah, good luck filling bitcoin with tungsten.

imagine if just one Bitcoin was found to be filled with "tungsten" metaphorically; it would destroy the entire Bitcoin concept.

now you can say that it would be different somehow for gold or silver if "just 5%"  or even "1%" were fake b/c of its thousand year history but do you really think that will be the case?  how many of you can stand to have 5% of your stash to be fake?

I think you have a better argument about this being a game changer than I previously thought.

Im not going to run and sell, or even test my stack, but keep talking Cypherdoc, you are convincing me.
silverbox
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 910


View Profile
September 25, 2012, 11:10:45 PM
 #3285

i don't know about you but i'm worried about the integrity of my own coins which is why i'm going to US them.  and i bought them way before $1000.  i do know that if i'm worried, everyone else is too.


Yeah, people are definitely going to be pretty worried about their physical... But I suspect *most* (in private hands, at least) will be found to be legit. Cheap testing equipment will proliferate a bit, and this will blow over. Obviously, I could be wrong, but these things generally tend to get blown out of proportion...

You're looking at this as really bearish for gold. What about the flipside argument? If there really *is* widespread fraudulent physical gold (say, more than 15% of what's in private hands), that instantly reduces what people thought the supply of physical gold was, therefore bumping the price?? Maybe this just causes a big spread to develop between paper and (legit)physical... ?

Disclosure: I'm neither bullish nor bearish on gold. Too much variance on all the variables, leading to statistical noise in aggregate, in my opinion... Bitcoin, on the other hand, I'm pretty bullish on. And yeah, good luck filling bitcoin with tungsten.

imagine if just one Bitcoin was found to be filled with "tungsten" metaphorically; it would destroy the entire Bitcoin concept.

now you can say that it would be different somehow for gold or silver if "just 5%"  or even "1%" were fake b/c of its thousand year history but do you really think that will be the case?  how many of you can stand to have 5% of your stash to be fake?

Coinage has been debased and counterfeited since the begninning of time.  This is no different.  I doubt even 1 in 1000 gold bullion coins/bars are fake.  I'm not worried about my bullion in the slightest.  If it was even as widespread as 1% counterfeit, we'd be seeing 100s of examples on social media and news stories.. Not the same 10 oz bar over and over again.
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
September 25, 2012, 11:27:16 PM
 #3286

i don't know about you but i'm worried about the integrity of my own coins which is why i'm going to US them.  and i bought them way before $1000.  i do know that if i'm worried, everyone else is too.


Yeah, people are definitely going to be pretty worried about their physical... But I suspect *most* (in private hands, at least) will be found to be legit. Cheap testing equipment will proliferate a bit, and this will blow over. Obviously, I could be wrong, but these things generally tend to get blown out of proportion...

You're looking at this as really bearish for gold. What about the flipside argument? If there really *is* widespread fraudulent physical gold (say, more than 15% of what's in private hands), that instantly reduces what people thought the supply of physical gold was, therefore bumping the price?? Maybe this just causes a big spread to develop between paper and (legit)physical... ?

Disclosure: I'm neither bullish nor bearish on gold. Too much variance on all the variables, leading to statistical noise in aggregate, in my opinion... Bitcoin, on the other hand, I'm pretty bullish on. And yeah, good luck filling bitcoin with tungsten.

imagine if just one Bitcoin was found to be filled with "tungsten" metaphorically; it would destroy the entire Bitcoin concept.

now you can say that it would be different somehow for gold or silver if "just 5%"  or even "1%" were fake b/c of its thousand year history but do you really think that will be the case?  how many of you can stand to have 5% of your stash to be fake?

Coinage has been debased and counterfeited since the begninning of time.  This is no different.  I doubt even 1 in 1000 gold bullion coins/bars are fake.  I'm not worried about my bullion in the slightest.  If it was even as widespread as 1% counterfeit, we'd be seeing 100s of examples on social media and news stories.. Not the same 10 oz bar over and over again.

there were 10 bars found in the middle of Manhattan.  and do you really think the counterfeiters just pumped a few bars full of tungsten?  no.  i bet there's some huge operation somewhere in the Orient as well as elsewhere where they're pumping hundreds of these bars, maybe thousands and sending them all over the world.  that's fine if you are comfortable with that but a big part of investing in pm's is that there will be later suckers willing to take those bars and coins off your hands at a much higher prices.  this will have a chilling effect.  this type of news is not good no matter how you slice it.
Severian
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 476



View Profile
September 25, 2012, 11:27:38 PM
 #3287

  If it was even as widespread as 1% counterfeit, we'd be seeing 100s of examples on social media and news stories.. Not the same 10 oz bar over and over again.

Hard to say. Most dealers won't say a word if they find a fake. The good ones remove it from circulation, the worse ones pass it on to one of their more clueless customers.
labestiol
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 434


View Profile
September 25, 2012, 11:29:49 PM
 #3288

I also don't think it's a game changer, since there is already good solutions to solve it.
Even if cheap ultrasound testers are not good enough, then I guess at least the big dealers will be able to buy good ones. It will perhaps add costs, but won't be a game changer. And clearly bitcoin is a lot less expensive to test.

But for sure with the rise in price of PM, these companies will have a bright future  Grin

1BestioLC7YBVh8Q5LfH6RYURD6MrpP8y6
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
September 25, 2012, 11:32:52 PM
 #3289

well, you know what they say, perception is everything.
n8rwJeTt8TrrLKPa55eU
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 588



View Profile
September 25, 2012, 11:37:58 PM
 #3290

Coinage has been debased and counterfeited since the begninning of time.  This is no different.  I doubt even 1 in 1000 gold bullion coins/bars are fake.  I'm not worried about my bullion in the slightest.  If it was even as widespread as 1% counterfeit, we'd be seeing 100s of examples on social media and news stories.. Not the same 10 oz bar over and over again.

Indeed, nothing new under the sun.  Once the very first coin circulated 2500 years ago, fake plated versions were immediately made, of which some have survived to this day:

Lydian electrum trite fourree with eight countermarks (3.41g). The diagnostics of this ancient fake are its low weight and the exposed silver interior. The electrum plating has worn off in some areas, leaving the silver interior exposed at the high points of the obverse and reverse. The impressed areas wound up with thinner plating, which caused the interior silver to be also exposed at the incuse square and countermarks. The dark areas show uncleaned darkly toned silver.



http://oldestcoins.reidgold.com/article.html
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
September 25, 2012, 11:42:35 PM
 #3291

I also don't think it's a game changer, since there is already good solutions to solve it.
Even if cheap ultrasound testers are not good enough, then I guess at least the big dealers will be able to buy good ones.

i don't like that solution at all if you expect any meaningful rise in price from here.  any real solution has to come from the root of the problem on the production side.  if that's even possible.  any solutions that are reactive, such as US, are just bandaids as far as i'm concerned.  and then that doesn't solve the trust issue with your dealer.
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
September 25, 2012, 11:47:26 PM
 #3292

btw, i think its time to short miners again.  i'm comin' for ya' silverbox!  Wink
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
September 25, 2012, 11:50:44 PM
 #3293

this is just way too funny Cheesy:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110494.msg1220986#msg1220986

http://www.popgive.com/2008/07/dont-buy-ups-without-warranty.html
labestiol
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 434


View Profile
September 26, 2012, 01:27:18 AM
 #3294

I also don't think it's a game changer, since there is already good solutions to solve it.
Even if cheap ultrasound testers are not good enough, then I guess at least the big dealers will be able to buy good ones.

i don't like that solution at all if you expect any meaningful rise in price from here.  any real solution has to come from the root of the problem on the production side.  if that's even possible.  any solutions that are reactive, such as US, are just bandaids as far as i'm concerned.  and then that doesn't solve the trust issue with your dealer.

How can it be possible to solve that ? There will always be people making fake coins/bars, like n8rwJeTt8TrrLKPa55eU showed it's not a new problem. History shows it didn't prevented gold/silver to impose itself as money in history.
It's an arms race between people making these bars and people testing them. And people testing are winning. If these bars were not detectable without melting it, that would be a real problem.

1BestioLC7YBVh8Q5LfH6RYURD6MrpP8y6
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
September 26, 2012, 01:58:24 AM
 #3295

I also don't think it's a game changer, since there is already good solutions to solve it.
Even if cheap ultrasound testers are not good enough, then I guess at least the big dealers will be able to buy good ones.

i don't like that solution at all if you expect any meaningful rise in price from here.  any real solution has to come from the root of the problem on the production side.  if that's even possible.  any solutions that are reactive, such as US, are just bandaids as far as i'm concerned.  and then that doesn't solve the trust issue with your dealer.

How can it be possible to solve that ? There will always be people making fake coins/bars, like n8rwJeTt8TrrLKPa55eU showed it's not a new problem. History shows it didn't prevented gold/silver to impose itself as money in history.
It's an arms race between people making these bars and people testing them. And people testing are winning. If these bars were not detectable without melting it, that would be a real problem.

it may have always been a problem but with today's technology and pricing, it has the potential to be a huge problem the magnitude of which has never been seen before.  the fact that they now are able to inject coins takes it to the personal level of you, me and the middle class who mostly consumes coins, not bars.  as i said before, the profits are so high that the scammers have tossed all risk aside and are now flooding Manhattan premium dealers. 

in fact, i'm sitting right here twittling a one ounce gold coin on the table and wondering what the hell is inside.
adamstgBit
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1904


Trusted Bitcoiner


View Profile WWW
September 26, 2012, 02:11:11 AM
 #3296

in fact, i'm sitting right here twittling a one ounce gold coin on the table and wondering what the hell is inside.


smoothie
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1834


LEALANA Monero Physical Silver Coins


View Profile
September 26, 2012, 02:48:01 AM
 #3297

in fact, i'm sitting right here twittling a one ounce gold coin on the table and wondering what the hell is inside.





MMMMMMMMMMM GOLD CHOCOLATE!

███████████████████████████████████████

            ,╓p@@███████@╗╖,           
        ,p████████████████████N,       
      d█████████████████████████b     
    d██████████████████████████████æ   
  ,████²█████████████████████████████, 
 ,█████  ╙████████████████████╨  █████y
 ██████    `████████████████`    ██████
║██████       Ñ███████████`      ███████
███████         ╩██████Ñ         ███████
███████    ▐▄     ²██╩     a▌    ███████
╢██████    ▐▓█▄          ▄█▓▌    ███████
 ██████    ▐▓▓▓▓▌,     ▄█▓▓▓▌    ██████─
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓█,,▄▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
    ▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓─  
     ²▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓╩    
        ▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀       
           ²▀▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀▀`          
                   ²²²                 
███████████████████████████████████████

. ★☆ WWW.LEALANA.COM        My PGP fingerprint is A764D833.        SMOOTHIE'S HEALTH AND FITNESS JOURNAL          History of Monero development Visualization ★☆ .
LEALANA  PHYSICAL MONERO COINS 999 FINE SILVER.
 
Melbustus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1554



View Profile
September 26, 2012, 04:55:22 AM
 #3298

i'd doubt that b/c you need a sensitive probe with variable frequency adjustment for different metals and a console with display screen. 

This can't be *that* difficult. One should be able to take an off-the-shelf ultrasound probe and connect it to a smartphone through some custom hardware (yes, that's the hard part, but probably not ridiculous). Then it becomes a software issue (signal processing, etc).


Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
But Bitcointalk & /r/bitcoin are heavily censored. bitco.in/forum, forum.bitcoin.com, and /r/btc are open.
Best info on Casascius coins: http://spotcoins.com/casascius
molecular
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2128



View Profile
September 26, 2012, 07:58:07 AM
 #3299

in fact, i'm sitting right here twittling a one ounce gold coin on the table and wondering what the hell is inside.



PGP key molecular F9B70769 fingerprint 9CDD C0D3 20F8 279F 6BE0  3F39 FC49 2362 F9B7 0769
labestiol
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 434


View Profile
September 26, 2012, 01:50:41 PM
 #3300

Wow, What the hell is happening. Someone is dumping PM, and cypherdoc didn't post here yet  Shocked
Hope everything is ok for you.

On a side note, I'm happy I didn't took your bet  Grin
But If you are sad about that, we can double the previous one (1500$ vs 1900$)

1BestioLC7YBVh8Q5LfH6RYURD6MrpP8y6
Pages: « 1 ... 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 [165] 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 ... 1560 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!