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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1805080 times)
tvbcof
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April 27, 2013, 06:18:18 AM
 #4861


An 'official' number is useless, speculators wield way much more power than some of those here would believe.

If a bunch of sheepish bitcoiners start to cautiously follow bitcoin foundation's recommendation on buying/selling, they will soon be overwhelmed by a sudden inlfow of fiats/bitcoins.

Hurrah!  One person is starting to get it!


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cypherdoc
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April 27, 2013, 06:19:23 AM
 #4862

tv,

do u think Max was speaking tongue in cheek?
tvbcof
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April 27, 2013, 06:26:58 AM
 #4863

tv,

do u think Max was speaking tongue in cheek?

Probably to the extent that he was mocking other institutions.  But just as the other institutions find utility in various types of shenanigans, Bitcoin could as well.  Why not ride along the path paved by the Goldman Sachs types?  They've already done the heavy lifting of buying the regulators and writing the regulations and such.  If it calls extra attention to what a farce our current financial systems are, that's fine by me.


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April 27, 2013, 06:30:36 AM
 #4864

I think an influential "off-the-market" rate will only work if Bitcoin doesn't need to compete as a currency with fiats anymore(including what I said previously about Feds started to peg dollars to bitcoins), at that point, the rate would simply not matter.

https://tlsnotary.org/ Fraud proofing decentralized fiat-Bitcoin trading.
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April 27, 2013, 06:32:56 AM
 #4865

tv,

do u think Max was speaking tongue in cheek?

Probably to the extent that he was mocking other institutions.  But just as the other institutions find utility in various types of shenanigans, Bitcoin could as well.  Why not ride along the path paved by the Goldman Sachs types?  They've already done the heavy lifting of buying the regulators and writing the regulations and such.  If it calls extra attention to what a farce our current financial systems are, that's fine by me.



well, now that i look at it more closely, he maybe was being sarcastic but he did a poor job of it by drawing the analogies of TBF to Comex/LBMA.  i quickly read all the comments from the actual OP and in Bitcoin Discussion and there were only 2 ppl who think he was being sarcastic.

the other problem here is that you and i look at the gold price totally differently.  i think this selloff is real and the spot price reflects reality.  you, otoh, think it's manipulated.  so right off the bat, you and i have a disconnect.
tvbcof
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April 27, 2013, 06:40:39 AM
 #4866


well, now that i look at it more closely, he maybe was being sarcastic but he did a poor job of it by drawing the analogies of TBF to Comex/LBMA.  i quickly read all the comments from the actual OP and in Bitcoin Discussion and there were only 2 ppl who think he was being sarcastic.

the other problem here is that you and i look at the gold price totally differently.  i think this selloff is real and the spot price reflects reality.  you, otoh, think it's manipulated.  so right off the bat, you and i have a disconnect.

I was actually thinking more of LIBOR when I wrote my screed(s), but you are right that I believe PM spot prices to be artificially manipulated as well.

As usually, with enough effort you and I come to an understanding even if we continue to disagree.


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April 27, 2013, 06:46:56 AM
 #4867


An 'official' number is useless, speculators wield way much more power than some of those here would believe.

If a bunch of sheepish bitcoiners start to cautiously follow bitcoin foundation's recommendation on buying/selling, they will soon be overwhelmed by a sudden inlfow of fiats/bitcoins.

Hurrah!  One person is starting to get it!



LOL you make no sense. So now an official number is useless? When earlier you were saying it was a good idea to implement with the foundation?

Pick a side of the fence and stay on it? lol

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cypherdoc
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April 27, 2013, 06:55:59 AM
 #4868


An 'official' number is useless, speculators wield way much more power than some of those here would believe.

If a bunch of sheepish bitcoiners start to cautiously follow bitcoin foundation's recommendation on buying/selling, they will soon be overwhelmed by a sudden inlfow of fiats/bitcoins.

Hurrah!  One person is starting to get it!



LOL you make no sense. So now an official number is useless? When earlier you were saying it was a good idea to implement with the foundation?

Pick a side of the fence and stay on it? lol

what tv is saying is that he thinks Max was being facetious/sarcastic by proposing a price fix by TBF.  Max is mocking our banking institutions that do that daily in other markets.  

the problem is that the analogy is a poor one on Max's part and there is enough detail and rambling in the original article to make one think he is serious.  or drunk.
smoothie
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April 27, 2013, 06:56:50 AM
 #4869


An 'official' number is useless, speculators wield way much more power than some of those here would believe.

If a bunch of sheepish bitcoiners start to cautiously follow bitcoin foundation's recommendation on buying/selling, they will soon be overwhelmed by a sudden inlfow of fiats/bitcoins.

Hurrah!  One person is starting to get it!



LOL you make no sense. So now an official number is useless? When earlier you were saying it was a good idea to implement with the foundation?

Pick a side of the fence and stay on it? lol

what tv is saying is that he thinks Max was being facetious/sarcastic by proposing a price fix by TBF.  Max is mocking our banking institutions that do that daily in other markets. 

the problem is that the analogy is a poor one on Max's part and there is enough detail and rambling in the original article to make one think he is serious. 


ahh ok got it

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     ²▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓╩    
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miscreanity
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April 27, 2013, 11:27:36 AM
 #4870

It is relevant as to the misconception of wealth as a means to manage risk. The early communists got this wrong too with the notion of redistributing wealth, while what they really wanted to do was to redistribute risk.

As a risk management tool gold does a really poor job of this. Thus humanity as a whole has moved on. They might not really understand why quite yet. but Bitcoin, and cryptos in general are serving as a bit of an apocalypse for this understanding. And I think that it is actually starting to change the psychology regarding gold.

While I generally agree with the concept, I still don't see how it has much to do with using gold as an economic weapon.

No form of wealth is capable of risk management, because wealth has no capacity for thought. Whichever form of wealth is appropriate to counter financial risk at a given time is the one that will protect. All manner of financial instruments have had their day in the sun, and it is gold's turn once again. This is due to gold's broad acceptance and physical properties. Passive options, like gold, are usually the most effective.

Risk also has numerous forms. Gold does not apply to all of them, but it can assist depending on the circumstances - determining what's appropriate for which type of risk comes back to independent, rational thought.

It may help to define risk for the purposes of this discussion. I'm considering it to be any danger or negative outcome, financial or otherwise.

What's happening because of Bitcoin is indeed a shift in understanding, but I think it's more of a subtle realization by the masses that supply and demand of money are both malleable. The choice of crypto over all, including gold, is the simplification of that variability by making one element static (eventually). Historically, the closest analog societies have had to Bitcoin was gold. It's that simple.

On the point of redistributing risk, it seems that Wall Stret has done an expert job of it through manipulation of perceptions toward wealth. Maybe we should call bankers neo-communists?
Zangelbert Bingledack
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April 27, 2013, 12:34:38 PM
 #4871

Perhaps the point of having an "official price" is to let people get away with accounting shenanigans? Or use tax loopholes?
miscreanity
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April 28, 2013, 04:32:54 AM
 #4872

When you say that variability should be simplified by making one element static, this is speaking to the cognitive error made by the Stoics that I mentioned. "The One" is a futile attempt to grasp at complexity. And gold, being what it is, can only ever be one, "the gold standard". This is the Neoplatonic bullshit that we are finally getting away from. And Bitcoin is far from this analog for its ability to be cloned in many mutable forms, a bit closer to the analog of opening Pandora's Box.

If resilience science has taught us anything is that our collective ability to respond to complexity arises out of complexity itself. We eliminate risk at our peril because it is only a purported elimination and not an actual one. It closes our eyes to actual risks which soon overtake us. Such would be that case of putting our eggs in a gold basket.

This would also be the case it putting all our eggs in a Bitcoin basket... Its strength is in its ability to be forked.

There was no "should" regarding simplification in my post. I am a proponent of Litecoin and Ripple in conjunction with Bitcoin, as well as gold - even fiat during transition; nor was mention made of holding gold exclusive of anything else. Additional improvements, such as the potential with proof-of-stake variants, are also constantly being sought. That's about as far from a "One True" anything in my view.

Further, risk cannot be eliminated, only masked or redirected - and reducing complexity does not necessarily affect risk in a direct manner, but it normally makes assessing risk more apparent. Gold in particular has a specialized monetary purpose, no longer as applicable to general use as other solutions are now. However, there are numerous other uses for the metal, similar to how Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies may be used to implement time-stamping, smart property, or identification even without the currency element. Risk may be distributed in differing proportions, but the identity does not change.

To sum: where Bitcoin's form can change, gold's uses can change; risk shifts relative to those forms and uses.

This appears to be a case of dogmatic projection and erroneous reading comprehension. We're in agreement; our differences are semantic.
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April 28, 2013, 11:13:39 AM
 #4873

Hey tv

Looks like the majority don't think that Max was joking :

http://thegenesisblock.com/no-mr-keiser-bitcoin-should-not-peg-itself-to-the-dollar/
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April 28, 2013, 07:37:31 PM
 #4874

Hey tv

Looks like the majority don't think that Max was joking :

http://thegenesisblock.com/no-mr-keiser-bitcoin-should-not-peg-itself-to-the-dollar/

His ranting was particularly unclear on the piece in question.  You are right about that.  I cannot be confident that I understand exactly where he was coming from.  But I am certain that Max in no way meant to indicate that a peg should be implemented in the 'classic' fiat money supply way because it is simply to absurd.  Similarly, any literal interpretation of the 'peg' or 'fix' in terms of on-the-street valuation has to be a joke, but most of you Libertarians went off on a tear without thinking about that.

With luck Keiser will follow up in an entertaining way in one of his outlets.


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April 28, 2013, 10:19:03 PM
 #4875

Hey tv

Looks like the majority don't think that Max was joking :

http://thegenesisblock.com/no-mr-keiser-bitcoin-should-not-peg-itself-to-the-dollar/

His ranting was particularly unclear on the piece in question.  You are right about that.  I cannot be confident that I understand exactly where he was coming from.  But I am certain that Max in no way meant to indicate that a peg should be implemented in the 'classic' fiat money supply way because it is simply to absurd.  Similarly, any literal interpretation of the 'peg' or 'fix' in terms of on-the-street valuation has to be a joke, but most of you Libertarians went off on a tear without thinking about that.

With luck Keiser will follow up in an entertaining way in one of his outlets.



its unfortunate b/c in the meantime his reputation is being ripped to shreds and he hasn't bothered to show up and defend himself. 

maybe he wrote it in a fit of drunkenness.
tvbcof
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April 28, 2013, 10:26:13 PM
 #4876

...
maybe he wrote it in a fit of drunkenness.

Some chemically induced altered state of consciousness strikes me as a strongly plausible hypothesis.


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May 01, 2013, 02:11:12 PM
 #4877

zerg?
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May 01, 2013, 03:35:41 PM
 #4878

zerg?

Gold hurting today, bitcoin too (but not so much)  Sad

the silverbox update (comparison from the beginning of this thread, March 13th, 2012, gold=1690, nasdaq=3055, Bitcoin=5.4):
Bitcoin is 130.00.  Gold is 1444.00.  Nasdaq is 3317.00
Bitcoin: 2307.41%
Gold:    -14.56%
Nasdaq:  8.58%
Gold Diff:  2718% advantage Bitcoin
Nasdaq Diff:  2117% advantage Bitcoin[/b][/size]
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May 03, 2013, 10:58:28 AM
 #4879

Wow.  BTC down to $86.  Harshest of tokes!

Gold looks like it's toying with $1500 again at least.  Nice to be diversified.


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May 10, 2013, 01:17:42 PM
 #4880

Wow.  BTC down to $86.  Harshest of tokes!

Gold looks like it's toying with $1500 again at least.  Nice to be diversified.



Spoke too soon.

Gold DOWN. Bitcoin up.

Zerg?
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