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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1808265 times)
cypherdoc
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February 27, 2013, 05:02:58 PM
 #4321

I find it very hard to trust anyone on the Internet, esp an exchange! Either I fail to understand ripple or I'm very shocked so many people are for this.



i'm shocked too given how few specifics of how the system is actually going to work are available.  the code is not even available for inspection.
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cypherdoc
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February 27, 2013, 05:04:04 PM
 #4322

Let's make it even simpler.   How many of you have ever felt betrayed by a brother,  sister,  or even parent?

Ripple doesn't make anyone more or less trustworthy. One of its primary functions is to level the playing field currently dominated by banks.

What Ripple does in terms of evaluating trust is offer a transparent record that  is resistant to manipulation. It creates an environment where there is a strong incentive to be responsible.

Avoid knee-jerk reactions that attack, ask questions to learn Smiley

Well, just one simple question, how do I figure out my level of trust of Carol if, let's say, my level of trust of Bob is 50, and Bob's level of trust of Carol is 50, yet I don't know anything about Carol at all? If I can only issue and receive IOUs from people I personally know, then perhaps I don't need Ripple IOUs at all, as we can already do things with pen and paper, and they are actually more versatile in this aspect.

Bob can exhange the Carol IOUs to Bob IOUs (Ripple should do this automagically). That's how carol can give you money without you needing to trust her directly. The resulting effect will be that Bob owns some Carol IOUs and you own some Bob IOUs. Noone trust constraint were violated and all is fine.

Above is how it could work in a "personal banking" environment. Currently ripple devs seem keen to point out that it would make more sense if everyone just trusted bitstamp and/or weexchange.



What do you mean by "automagically"? In what way is it automatic/automagic? Do I need to get Bob's explicit, informed approval when I lend money to Carol?  And what would happen if Carol defaults? Thanks.

By "automagically" I mean that ripple searches for "trust paths" to make Carols payment happen. In this case the path involves Bob.

I'm no expert on ripple, but the way I understand it explicit approval from Bob is not needed. He implicitly agrees to this by trusting Carol. In case of a Carol default, you still own Bobs IOUs, he has to deal with the Carol default, because he owns her debt.


Can you get more than one intermediary in the path? And can you not later invalidate a payment which you implicitly approved? If that's the case I strongly suspect the robustness of such a system, e.g., if someone happens to be the junction point of a lot of trust paths, and suddenly accumulating a large amount of IOUs without his knowledge(it could happen if the nodes next to you happen to be a little bit better connected than average, and so are their extended ones, and so forth), his default could cause huge problems. Of course allow the setting of a threshold debt value could be very helpful, but a robust network should in the first place be designed to avoid single points of failure/negligence.

Besides, I don't think such IOUs are as versatile as their real world counterpart, with which you can specify under what conditions/when the debt is to be repaid, and under what conditions the repayment could be delayed, which are all legally enforceable.

this is exactly why i see Ripple as a derivatives market analog.
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February 27, 2013, 05:05:51 PM
 #4323

"Trust" will only work until it doesn't for Ripple.  The counterparty risk will be extraordinary.  Look at MyBitcoin and Bitcoinica as examples.

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February 27, 2013, 07:42:29 PM
 #4324

the silverbox update (comparison from the beginning of this thread, March 13th, 2012, gold=1690, Bitcoin=5.4):

Bitcoin:  +484%

Gold:  -6%

silverbox in big trouble.  plumbing new lows

GPL:  -36% silverbox long


Diff:  +490% advantage Bitcoin and growing

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February 27, 2013, 08:01:02 PM
 #4325

"Trust" will only work until it doesn't for Ripple.  The counterparty risk will be extraordinary.  Look at MyBitcoin and Bitcoinica as examples.



I'm with you here Cypherdoc.  I really can't figure out why anyone with any experience with bitcoins thinks that "trust" is worth anything Tongue

Also, I love this thread.

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February 27, 2013, 08:27:07 PM
 #4326

"Trust" will only work until it doesn't for Ripple.  The counterparty risk will be extraordinary.  Look at MyBitcoin and Bitcoinica as examples.



I'm with you here Cypherdoc.  I really can't figure out why anyone with any experience with bitcoins thinks that "trust" is worth anything Tongue

Also, I love this thread.

as i mentioned earlier, i don't think Jed believes in Bitcoin otherwise why would he have sold mtgox.  this whole "trust" issue way of doing things has been pushed ever since day 1 of Bitcoin's history primarily on the IRC channels as ppl trade Bitcoin there all day long and have built up a reputation system.  i guess it must work reasonably well but there have also been alot of scams. 

its the 180 opposite concept to Bitcoin.  but look how well Bitcoin is doing.  i don't think ppl "want" to depend on a system of trust.
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February 27, 2013, 11:25:40 PM
 #4327

"Trust" will only work until it doesn't for Ripple.  The counterparty risk will be extraordinary.  Look at MyBitcoin and Bitcoinica as examples.



I'm with you here Cypherdoc.  I really can't figure out why anyone with any experience with bitcoins thinks that "trust" is worth anything Tongue

Also, I love this thread.

as i mentioned earlier, i don't think Jed believes in Bitcoin otherwise why would he have sold mtgox.  this whole "trust" issue way of doing things has been pushed ever since day 1 of Bitcoin's history primarily on the IRC channels as ppl trade Bitcoin there all day long and have built up a reputation system.  i guess it must work reasonably well but there have also been alot of scams. 

its the 180 opposite concept to Bitcoin.  but look how well Bitcoin is doing.  i don't think ppl "want" to depend on a system of trust.


I actually think there's room for both, for different purposes, but to your point about trust/reputation, I just had lunch with a few guys today who were talking about the scams on IRC... Gotta be careful!

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
But Bitcointalk & /r/bitcoin are heavily censored. bitco.in/forum, forum.bitcoin.com, and /r/btc are open.
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February 28, 2013, 12:54:45 AM
 #4328

The Daaash for Digital Caaash!!! Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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February 28, 2013, 01:29:06 AM
 #4329

the silverbox update (comparison from the beginning of this thread, March 13th, 2012, gold=1690, Bitcoin=5.4):

Bitcoin:  +509%

Gold:  -6%

silverbox in big trouble.  plumbing new lows

GPL:  -36% silverbox long


Diff:  +515% advantage Bitcoin and growing
cypherdoc
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February 28, 2013, 01:32:59 AM
 #4330

the silverbox update (comparison from the beginning of this thread, March 13th, 2012, gold=1690, Bitcoin=5.4):

Bitcoin:  +515%

Gold:  -6%

silverbox in big trouble.  plumbing new lows

GPL:  -36% silverbox long


Diff:  +521% advantage Bitcoin and growing
paraipan
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February 28, 2013, 02:21:44 AM
 #4331

the silverbox update (comparison from the beginning of this thread, March 13th, 2012, gold=1690, Bitcoin=5.4):

Bitcoin:  +515%

Gold:  -6%

silverbox in big trouble.  plumbing new lows

GPL:  -36% silverbox long


Diff:  +521% advantage Bitcoin and growing

Where the heck is silverbox when you need him?

BTCitcoin: An Idea Worth Saving - Q&A with bitcoins on rugatu.com - Check my rep
cypherdoc
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February 28, 2013, 02:31:48 AM
 #4332

the silverbox update (comparison from the beginning of this thread, March 13th, 2012, gold=1690, Bitcoin=5.4):

Bitcoin:  +515%

Gold:  -6%

silverbox in big trouble.  plumbing new lows

GPL:  -36% silverbox long


Diff:  +521% advantage Bitcoin and growing

Where the heck is silverbox when you need him?

him and all his gold/silver bug supporters who've been trolling me since the first Gold Thread from Aug 2011.
smoothie
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LEALANA Monero Physical Silver Coins


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February 28, 2013, 02:35:24 AM
 #4333

the silverbox update (comparison from the beginning of this thread, March 13th, 2012, gold=1690, Bitcoin=5.4):

Bitcoin:  +515%

Gold:  -6%

silverbox in big trouble.  plumbing new lows

GPL:  -36% silverbox long


Diff:  +521% advantage Bitcoin and growing

Where the heck is silverbox when you need him?

him and all his gold/silver bug supporters who've been trolling me since the first Gold Thread from Aug 2011.

I couldn't make out the context of your sentence. Perhaps rephrasing? I certainly couldn't understand it really. I guess in the context of answering the question in RED.

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February 28, 2013, 02:49:13 AM
 #4334


him and all his gold/silver bug supporters who've been trolling me since the first Gold Thread from Aug 2011.

What am I?  Chopped liver?  Smiley

Seriously, I am going to get real about converting about $10k of BTC into cash, gold (1oz rounds) , or junk silver if/when we get into the $50-$60 range.  Anyone who thinks they are going to want to put their money where their mouth is is welcome to PM me to start working out the arrangements.  I'm in the Pacific NW and will want to do such a the transaction face-to-face in a secure environment.  Also I'll probably want to work out an 'earnest money' type escrow to cover expenses if there are any that impact me.

If someone is thinking about this and they are pretty clean legally, it probably makes more sense to buy through one of the specialists right now and take the hit on the various fees.  But I'm just planting a bug in the ear at this point and things could more pretty quickly.  We've seen Bitcoin rise and fall by a significant percentage of it's market cap pretty quickly in the past and I expect it will continue into the future.


cypherdoc
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February 28, 2013, 02:57:41 AM
 #4335


him and all his gold/silver bug supporters who've been trolling me since the first Gold Thread from Aug 2011.

What am I?  Chopped liver?  Smiley


lol!

no, you were one of the "good" trolls.  Wink
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February 28, 2013, 02:02:56 PM
 #4336

Gold down.  Bitcoin Up.
cypherdoc
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February 28, 2013, 02:40:23 PM
 #4337

the silverbox update (comparison from the beginning of this thread, March 13th, 2012, gold=1690, Bitcoin=5.4):

Bitcoin:  +525%

Gold:  -6%

silverbox in big trouble.  plumbing new lows

GPL:  -36% silverbox long


Diff:  +531% advantage Bitcoin and growing
miscreanity
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February 28, 2013, 06:59:08 PM
 #4338

Fun times! If the paper price in gold is pushed below $1550 on a closing basis, we'll have a separation from physical.

Bitcoin still seems to be acting like the canary. Or maybe more like a peregrine falcon.
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February 28, 2013, 07:02:40 PM
 #4339

Fun times! If the paper price in gold is pushed below $1550 on a closing basis, we'll have a separation from physical.

What are you basing this on? Isn't a separation from physical a continuous thing? Like premiums gradually increasing?

PGP key molecular F9B70769 fingerprint 9CDD C0D3 20F8 279F 6BE0  3F39 FC49 2362 F9B7 0769
mccorvic
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February 28, 2013, 07:15:32 PM
 #4340

Seriously, I am going to get real about converting about $10k of BTC into cash, gold (1oz rounds) , or junk silver if/when we get into the $50-$60 range. 

I too prefer to trade out my assets that are increasing in value and will continue to do so for assets that are rapidly decreasing in value.

Wait, no I don't. That'd be stupid.

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