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Poll
Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1806858 times)
Zangelbert Bingledack
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June 05, 2013, 08:41:59 PM
 #5061

I find the whole "cash" thing (even "coins") idiosyncratic. Bitcoin isn't cash; it does away with the need for cash, coin, or anything actually - or even virtually - changing hands. Those are old tech, artifacts of an age when society was both too big and too low-tech to keep track of transactions in a universal ledger. Tiny communities could use a ledger system like rai stones, but for millennia the technology needed to enable a universal ledger for the global economic community was unavailable, so people never moved beyond hard objects and centralized trust systems ultimately based on them. Bitcoin is that universal ledger, enabled by recent technological innovations, obviating the need for any media of exchange at all. Calling these tickmarks in the ledger "coins" is just to make it sound familiar to people; ultimately it is a harmful distortion.

Failure to fully grasp this may result in: wondering what bitcoins are "backed by," fretting about altcoins (the world only needs one universal ledger, no "gold and silver" ledgers), losing arguments with Bitcoin skeptics, misjudging the significance (or insignificance) of BM+OT (or Ripple), and generally being a lily-livered weak hand.
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justusranvier
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June 05, 2013, 09:01:47 PM
 #5062

I find the whole "cash" thing (even "coins") idiosyncratic. Bitcoin isn't cash; it does away with the need for cash, coin, or anything actually - or even virtually - changing hands. Those are old tech, artifacts of an age when society was both too big and too low-tech to keep track of transactions in a universal ledger. Tiny communities could use a ledger system like rai stones, but for millennia the technology needed to enable a universal ledger for the global economic community was unavailable. Bitcoin is that universal ledger, enabled by recent technological innovations, obviating the need for any media of exchange.

Failure to fully grasp this may result in: fretting about altcoins (the world only needs one universal ledger, no "gold and silver" ledgers), losing arguments with Bitcoin skeptics, misjudging the significance (or insignificance) of BM+OT (or Ripple), and generally being a lily-livered weak hand.

I agree except that Bitcoin is not, nor will ever be a universal ledger. It is a public ledger, but that does not make it universal. The use of a single. flat ledger would lead to unimaginable stresses. Bitcoin was made to bifurcate—it is, and it shall.
This seems like a good place to mention this poll:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=226193.0
wachtwoord
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June 05, 2013, 09:25:15 PM
 #5063

I find the whole "cash" thing (even "coins") idiosyncratic. Bitcoin isn't cash; it does away with the need for cash, coin, or anything actually - or even virtually - changing hands. Those are old tech, artifacts of an age when society was both too big and too low-tech to keep track of transactions in a universal ledger. Tiny communities could use a ledger system like rai stones, but for millennia the technology needed to enable a universal ledger for the global economic community was unavailable, so people never moved beyond hard objects and centralized trust systems ultimately based on them. Bitcoin is that universal ledger, enabled by recent technological innovations, obviating the need for any media of exchange at all. Calling these tickmarks in the ledger "coins" is just to make it sound familiar to people; ultimately it is a harmful distortion.

Failure to fully grasp this may result in: wondering what bitcoins are "backed by," fretting about altcoins (the world only needs one universal ledger, no "gold and silver" ledgers), losing arguments with Bitcoin skeptics, misjudging the significance (or insignificance) of BM+OT (or Ripple), and generally being a lily-livered weak hand.

You are completely right of course and I was semi-joking Smiley

The core of my message however is serious, although I am stuck on repeat a bit. This is mainly because, even after I discovered the way money works in the pas 2.5 years, and how big a scam fiat currency is, I was completely oblivious to this before. It continues to baffle me how ignorant I was (merely accepting money as real because everyone else seemed to, never really questioning were it came from and why it had value) even though I am by nature an intelligent and curious individual.

Even the physical tokens of value Bitcoin is an evolution on are far better money that the fiat currency we use today, but it's not used since 1971 (or 1933 depending on how strict you apply the rules).

molecular
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June 05, 2013, 09:50:32 PM
 #5064

guys, I love this thread.

PGP key molecular F9B70769 fingerprint 9CDD C0D3 20F8 279F 6BE0  3F39 FC49 2362 F9B7 0769
tvbcof
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June 06, 2013, 04:59:51 AM
 #5065

This seems like a good place to mention this poll:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=226193.0

30 years is asinine.

Further, you left out the option for Bitcoin being a 'reserve currency' which is trusted enough to form the basis of value for many off-chain solutions.  Including other specialist cyrpto-currencies which are particularly suited for one role or another.  Say, not needing to wait for confirmations, providing genuine anonymity, etc, etc.

But whatever dude.  Your shtick is pretty transparent and stupid anyway.  When Bitcoin becomes something that no self-respecting Libertarian can look at without vomiting we'll have folks like you to thank for it.


BitcoinAshley
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June 06, 2013, 03:48:36 PM
 #5066

JPYUSD and the Nikkei 225 collapsing. Bitcoin... not affected?  Cry

Come on, if I was a japanese person I'd be pulling all of my yuan out of the stock market and sending it to MtGox Headquarters. Grin

niothor
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June 06, 2013, 03:55:10 PM
 #5067

JPYUSD and the Nikkei 225 collapsing. Bitcoin... not affected?  Cry

Come on, if I was a japanese person I'd be pulling all of my yuan out of the stock market and sending it to MtGox Headquarters. Grin



I think that there are only a few japanese people owning yuans Wink

wachtwoord
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June 06, 2013, 03:59:03 PM
 #5068

JPYUSD and the Nikkei 225 collapsing. Bitcoin... not affected?  Cry

Come on, if I was a japanese person I'd be pulling all of my yuan out of the stock market and sending it to MtGox Headquarters. Grin



I think that there are only a few japanese people owning yuans Wink

I'm not Japanese but I have 36 Yuan lying here next to me Wink

wachtwoord
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June 06, 2013, 04:05:18 PM
 #5069

JPYUSD and the Nikkei 225 collapsing. Bitcoin... not affected?  Cry

Come on, if I was a japanese person I'd be pulling all of my yuan out of the stock market and sending it to MtGox Headquarters. Grin



I think that there are only a few japanese people owning yuans Wink

I'm not Japanese but I have 36 Yuan lying here next to me Wink

I have never even seen a note under 100 Yuan. Did you get them from China?

Yes I was there a few years back 3 tens, a five and a single. It's worth very little and I must have had them left over in my wallet (I recently came across them). I usually only take coins with me.

cypherdoc
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June 06, 2013, 04:31:29 PM
 #5070

JPYUSD and the Nikkei 225 collapsing. Bitcoin... not affected?  Cry

Come on, if I was a japanese person I'd be pulling all of my yuan out of the stock market and sending it to MtGox Headquarters. Grin



why?

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June 06, 2013, 04:33:04 PM
 #5071

here's the 20 yr chart:

justusranvier
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June 06, 2013, 05:59:09 PM
 #5072

But whatever dude.  Your shtick is pretty transparent and stupid anyway.
Since you asked so nicely and provided such an insightful response I'll tell you exactly what I'm trying to achieve with my "shtick".

I don't want Bitcoin to be a reserve currency because that would be too easy for the New York City/District of Criminals financial mafia to control. I want the other 7 billion people in the world to have the same level of direct, censorship-resistant, pseudonymous access to the blockchain that we early adopters currently enjoy. I want Bitcoin to be usable to average people without needing to go through sidechain-managing gatekeeper so that its adoption rapidly spreads internationally beyond any single government's ability to control. 1.4 billion Chinese aren't going to adopt a currency that only supports 200 million transaction per year, to say nothing about the rest of the world.

And finally I want my Bitcoin savings to appreciate to the point at which I can afford to get the hell out of this bankrupt, fascistic, warmongering house of cards before it's too late.
tvbcof
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June 06, 2013, 07:27:39 PM
 #5073

But whatever dude.  Your shtick is pretty transparent and stupid anyway.
Since you asked so nicely and provided such an insightful response I'll tell you exactly what I'm trying to achieve with my "shtick".

I don't want Bitcoin to be a reserve currency ...

You think that somehow you are going to preclude that outcome be leaving it out of your silly little bitcointalk.org poll?  Pffft.

You've outlined your absurd pipe-dream before which is why I snipped it.  I still cannot tell if you are being earnest and naive, or nefarious and self serving.  But at this point, who cares?


Melbustus
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June 06, 2013, 07:28:03 PM
 #5074

...
I don't want Bitcoin to be a reserve currency because that would be too easy for the New York City/District of Criminals financial mafia to control. I want the other 7 billion people in the world to have the same level of direct, censorship-resistant, pseudonymous access to the blockchain that we early adopters currently enjoy. I want Bitcoin to be usable to average people without needing to go through sidechain-managing gatekeeper so that its adoption rapidly spreads internationally beyond any single government's ability to control. 1.4 billion Chinese aren't going to adopt a currency that only supports 200 million transaction per year, to say nothing about the rest of the world.
...

+1.

While it would still be a success and a net-benefit to humanity if bitcoin did become a relatively low-volume reserve currency only, it *can* be so much more than that... I think our sights should remain set on high-transaction volume with low-fees. If that proves absolutely technically unfeasible at some point, so be it, but it's such great potential that I think we have to strive for it.

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
But Bitcointalk & /r/bitcoin are heavily censored. bitco.in/forum, forum.bitcoin.com, and /r/btc are open.
Best info on Casascius coins: http://spotcoins.com/casascius
Adrian-x
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June 06, 2013, 07:47:25 PM
 #5075

But whatever dude.  Your shtick is pretty transparent and stupid anyway.
Since you asked so nicely and provided such an insightful response I'll tell you exactly what I'm trying to achieve with my "shtick".

I don't want Bitcoin to be a reserve currency because that would be too easy for the New York City/District of Criminals financial mafia to control. I want the other 7 billion people in the world to have the same level of direct, censorship-resistant, pseudonymous access to the blockchain that we early adopters currently enjoy. I want Bitcoin to be usable to average people without needing to go through sidechain-managing gatekeeper so that its adoption rapidly spreads internationally beyond any single government's ability to control. 1.4 billion Chinese aren't going to adopt a currency that only supports 200 million transaction per year, to say nothing about the rest of the world.

And finally I want my Bitcoin savings to appreciate to the point at which I can afford to get the hell out of this bankrupt, fascistic, warmongering house of cards before it's too late.

@ justusranvier, I resonate with a lot of your ideas but I think Peter Todd's limiting the block size to encourage development of a layer of services on top of Bitcoin to address micropayments and day to day transactions , is a good idea. What are your concerns?

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
justusranvier
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June 06, 2013, 07:58:12 PM
 #5076

@ justusranvier, I resonate with a lot of your ideas but I think Peter Todd's limiting the block size to encourage development of a layer of services on top of Bitcoin to address micropayments and day to day transactions , is a good idea. What are your concerns?
Right now you and I can send money to each other without any without any gatekeeper who is capable of censoring, reversing or blocking our transactions, and our transactions are secured by the full hashing power of the network.

Off-blockchain services can not have those same properties. They may exist in the future, but if they exist they should compete for users based on their own technical merits, not because their development is subsided by deliberately crippling Bitcoin's ability to function as a currency.

Artificially limiting the transaction rate means shutting out most of the world's population from being able to enjoy the benefits of Bitcoin. If everybody has to use a third party transaction processing service because only a small group of elites are allowed to transact on the blockchain for real they might as well all just use PayPal.

Speaking of PayPal, most people don't know that the original founders wanted their service to be a tool for monetary freedom, just like what Bitcoin was intended to be. They couldn't achieve that goal because they weren't decentralized and thus were forced to compromise their ideals when confronted with legal and financial pressure. PayPal was the Napster of digital currencies. The only way to make this work is via decentralized, trustless protocols. Off blockchain transaction processors are PayPal-like centralized services which will be compromised in the same way. The Bitcoin blockchain is the best solution to the problem that anyone has yet discovered, and encouraging people to diluting their efforts into non-blockchain solutions only weakens it.
thezerg
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June 06, 2013, 08:05:19 PM
 #5077

But whatever dude.  Your shtick is pretty transparent and stupid anyway.
Since you asked so nicely and provided such an insightful response I'll tell you exactly what I'm trying to achieve with my "shtick".

I don't want Bitcoin to be a reserve currency because that would be too easy for the New York City/District of Criminals financial mafia to control. I want the other 7 billion people in the world to have the same level of direct, censorship-resistant, pseudonymous access to the blockchain that we early adopters currently enjoy. I want Bitcoin to be usable to average people without needing to go through sidechain-managing gatekeeper so that its adoption rapidly spreads internationally beyond any single government's ability to control. 1.4 billion Chinese aren't going to adopt a currency that only supports 200 million transaction per year, to say nothing about the rest of the world.

And finally I want my Bitcoin savings to appreciate to the point at which I can afford to get the hell out of this bankrupt, fascistic, warmongering house of cards before it's too late.

@ justusranvier, I resonate with a lot of your ideas but I think Peter Todd's limiting the block size to encourage development of a layer of services on top of Bitcoin to address micropayments and day to day transactions , is a good idea. What are your concerns?

They won't be "on top" of bitcoin.  Best case if bitcoin scalability development stops today is that Bitcoin will become the electronic "gold", the reserve currency.  And a new coin will solve the anonymity, blockchain bloat, long confirmation time, and  microtransaction problems while simultaneously allowing "native" trust-backed currencies -- aka "colored" coins without the pain.

And yes, any layered service is going to want/need its 1% off the top...

Adrian-x
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June 06, 2013, 10:11:00 PM
 #5078

Right now you and I can send money to each other without any without any gatekeeper who is capable of censoring, reversing or blocking our transactions, and our transactions are secured by the full hashing power of the network.
I wasn't saying give it up.

They won't be "on top" of bitcoin.  Best case if bitcoin scalability development stops today is that Bitcoin will become the electronic "gold", the reserve currency.  And a new coin will solve the anonymity, blockchain bloat, long confirmation time, and  microtransaction problems while simultaneously allowing "native" trust-backed currencies -- aka "colored" coins without the pain.

And yes, any layered service is going to want/need its 1% off the top...

I was just thinking something would develop along these lines.
Direct Bitcoin transactions would always be available for big ticket items, a HD TV or a House or Business to Business purchases, even small web purchases.

But a layered service could practically exist on top of Bitcoin like a Credit/Debit Card for your smaller purchases, (Groceries, coffee entertainment, meals etc) and would happen much like your credit card, a trusted service provider could hold your coins securely for you and you could spend on the there payment network. (Daily settlement happen in Bitcoine B2B at the end of the day)  

The advantage would be the effective benefits the Credit Card companies provide today, and Cash transactions (web transactions) would be unaffected. Also said  Credit Card companies could provide loans, in real Bitcoin 1:1 banking, as they would provide the professional services banks do today.

The Credit Card Company could also embed ASIC's in all their pay terminals further decentralising the payment network making every retailer part of the Hashing network, Hell they could also create a mesh WIFI network, free to customers / account holders.  

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
justusranvier
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June 06, 2013, 10:29:24 PM
 #5079

Direct Bitcoin transactions would always be available for big ticket items, a HD TV or a House or Business to Business purchases, even small web purchases.

But a layered service could practically exist on top of Bitcoin like a Credit/Debit Card for your smaller purchases, (Groceries, coffee entertainment, meals etc) and would happen much like your credit card, a trusted service provider could hold your coins securely for you and you could spend on the there payment network. (Daily settlement happen in Bitcoine B2B at the end of the day)
If those services are needed and wanted then they will develop on their own without needing any extra encouragement. Bitcoin should not be intentionally limited in order to promote or make room for those kinds of systems.
notme
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June 06, 2013, 10:50:59 PM
 #5080

here's the 20 yr chart:



I bought some yen today on mtgox.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
12jh3odyAAaR2XedPKZNCR4X4sebuotQzN
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