Bitcoin Forum
April 28, 2024, 02:53:31 PM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 27.0 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Poll
Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

Pages: « 1 ... 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 [228] 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 ... 1557 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2032139 times)
tvbcof
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 4592
Merit: 1276


View Profile
March 28, 2013, 01:01:14 AM
 #4541

...

If you need any more clarification, I'm glad to help.

Ah yes.  The beauty and magic of the natural log.  Thx for that!


sig spam anywhere and self-moderated threads on the pol&soc board are for losers.
1714316011
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1714316011

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1714316011
Reply with quote  #2

1714316011
Report to moderator
1714316011
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1714316011

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1714316011
Reply with quote  #2

1714316011
Report to moderator
If you see garbage posts (off-topic, trolling, spam, no point, etc.), use the "report to moderator" links. All reports are investigated, though you will rarely be contacted about your reports.
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction.
1714316011
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1714316011

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1714316011
Reply with quote  #2

1714316011
Report to moderator
thezerg
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246
Merit: 1010


View Profile
March 28, 2013, 01:19:51 AM
 #4542

another simpler example would be if Bitcoin went from 1 to 1.2.

if i understand your formula, you would say Bitcoin went up 120%.  that's clearly wrong as it only went up 20%.

Well, no... I wouldn't say it "went up" without subtracting 100% from my result.  That's not really the real issue here.  I understand that financial ppl subtract 100% so they can say "went up".  You'd do that with my formula too.  But actually personally i think that that terminology starts to get really confusing once you pass 100%.  

I guess the dry way to say what I'm calculating is: "Change in Purchasing Power: Bitcoin vs. Gold: XXXX%".  Whether you subtract the 100% or not is getting into english not math.  

I think dree12's method and mine are the same, except perhaps around the treatment of "up"...
cypherdoc (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002



View Profile
March 28, 2013, 01:31:20 AM
 #4543

another simpler example would be if Bitcoin went from 1 to 1.2.

if i understand your formula, you would say Bitcoin went up 120%.  that's clearly wrong as it only went up 20%.

Indeed, 20% is correct here.

The issue with your method (6% loss + 1400% gain = 1406%) is that it assumes financial yields can be added. This is false. Consider a stock which appreciates 20%, and then appreciates 20% more. How much has the stock appreciated?

Based on your calculations, it would be 40%. However, this is not entirely correct—one can see that the stock actually appreciated 44%. This may seem counterintuitive, but we will consider some other examples to make this more clear.

Example 1: Imagine a stock A, priced at 1 BTC per share. A appreciates 20% on Monday, but then depreciates 20% on Tuesday. How much has A appreciated or depreciated?

Based on a naïve addition, the answer might be:
Code:
yield = 20% − 20%
      = 0%

However, if we take this one step at a time:
Code:
initial price = 1 XBT
Monday close  = 1 XBT + 0.2 XBT = 1.2 XBT
Tuesday close = 1.2 XBT − 0.24 XBT = 0.96 XBT
∴ yield = −4% !!!

Example 2: Imagine a stock B, priced at 1 BTC per share. B depreciates 20% on Monday, but then appreciates 20% on Tuesday. How much has B appreciated or depreciated?

Based on a naïve addition, the answer might be:
Code:
yield = −20% + 20%
      = 0%

However, if we take this one step at a time:
Code:
initial price = 1 XBT
Monday close  = 1 XBT − 0.2 XBT = 0.8 XBT
Tuesday close = 0.8 XBT + 0.16 XBT = 0.96 XBT
∴ yield = −4% !!!

From the above two examples, we can see that the method of calculating the yield is not additive. However, it seems to have a commutative property. We will now revisit the original goal of calculating Bitcoin's yield compared to gold.

We must understand that by comparing two commodities with no direct exchange rate, we need to introduce an intermediate commodity—in an efficient market, what we pick doesn't matter. We will choose the US dollar here.

Bitcoin, as you stated, has gone up by 1400% since the founding of this topic. Gold has gone down by 6%. These values correspond to yields of 1400% and −6%. Our goal is to calculate the difference between yields. However, we have just shown that this difference is not simply additive. So we will need to break up the problem again.

To simplify this problem, we will define a Standard Bitcoin as the value of a bitcoin, in USD, at the time the thread started. Our symbol for this will be SXBT. Similarly, define SXAU as the standard value of a gram of gold. We then know the constancy, but need not calculate directly, the Standard Ratio:
Code:
r = SXBT/SXAU

By the same process as the equations in our examples.
Code:
initial price of XBT = r XAU
after +ve XBT yield = r XAU + 1400%×r XAU = 1.5r XAU
after −ve XAU yield = [1/(1−6%)]×1.5r XAU ≈ 1.596r XAU
∴ yield = 1496%

So your error was because the ratios could not simply be added. Instead, they have to be normalized and then multiplied. We will now come up with a general formula to express this.

First, we will define a normalized yield as follows:
Code:
Yn = ln(yield + 1)

It turns out that normalized yields are addable. This is because a Yn of +q is exactly cancelled out by a Yn of −q (proof left as an exercise for the reader). So the remaining difficulty is converting from a normalized yield back to a regular yield:

Code:
Yn = ln(yield + 1)
e^Yn = yield + 1
yield = e^Yn − 1

Completing the formula:

Code:
total yield = e^[ln(XBT yield + 1) − ln(XAU yield + 1)] − 1
            = e^ln(XBT yield + 1)×e^[−ln(XAU yield + 1)] − 1
            = (XBT yield + 1)/(XAU yield + 1) − 1

Substituting our values (1400% & −6%), we have:

Code:
total yield = (1400% + 1)/(−6% + 1) − 1
            = 15/0.94 − 1
            ≈ 15.96 − 1
            = 1496%

If you need any more clarification, I'm glad to help.

now that was crystal clear.  you're right.  i won't add them anymore.
cypherdoc (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002



View Profile
March 28, 2013, 01:37:59 AM
 #4544

do one of you guys want to take over the Update and do the normalization?  zerg or dree?  its time for one...
thezerg
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246
Merit: 1010


View Profile
March 28, 2013, 03:10:05 AM
 #4545

the silverbox update (comparison from the beginning of this thread, March 13th, 2012, gold=1690, Bitcoin=5.4):
Bitcoin is 89.50.  Gold is 1605.80

Bitcoin: 1557.41%

Gold:    -4.98%

Diff:  1644% advantage Bitcoin and Growing








(Here's how I get it, still a WIP to think about whether it differs from dree12's formulation)

def _gcbu(PriceBitcoinToday,PriceGoldToday,N=1):
  goldAmt = N/1690.0
  goldValue = goldAmt*PriceGoldToday
  bitcoinValue = (N/5.4)*PriceBitcoinToday
  ratio = bitcoinValue / goldValue
  print("the silverbox update (comparison from the beginning of this thread, March 13th, 2012, gold=1690, Bitcoin=5.4):")
  print("Bitcoin is %f.  Gold is %f" % (PriceBitcoinToday*100,PriceGoldToday*100))
  print("Bitcoin: %4.0f%%" % (bitcoinValue-1.0)*100)
  print("Gold:    %4.0f%%" % (goldValue-1.0)*100)
  print("Diff:  %4.0f%% advantage Bitcoin and Growing" % ((ratio-1)*100))
  return ratio*100
rpietila
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036



View Profile
March 28, 2013, 07:22:49 AM
 #4546

What are the current terms of the paid subscription?

HIM TVA Dragon, AOK-GM, Emperor of the Earth, Creator of the World, King of Crypto Kingdom, Lord of Malla, AOD-GEN, SA-GEN5, Ministry of Plenty (Join NOW!), Professor of Economics and Theology, Ph.D, AM, Chairman, Treasurer, Founder, CEO, 3*MG-2, 82*OHK, NKP, WTF, FFF, etc(x3)
Melbustus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1722
Merit: 1003



View Profile
March 28, 2013, 07:47:38 AM
 #4547

What are the current terms of the paid subscription?

I'm sure cypher will chime in with terms/details, but fwiw, I've been a subscriber for a couple months, and his calls on bitcoin have been spot-on. And even if they weren't, it's interesting reading regardless.

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
thezerg
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246
Merit: 1010


View Profile
March 28, 2013, 03:06:25 PM
 #4548

Gold down today, bitcoin UP  Grin

the silverbox update (comparison from the beginning of this thread, March 13th, 2012, gold=1690, Bitcoin=5.4):

Bitcoin is 95.70.  Gold is 1598.10

Bitcoin: 1672.22%

Gold:    -5.44%


Diff:  1774% advantage Bitcoin and Growing
cypherdoc (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002



View Profile
March 28, 2013, 03:56:52 PM
 #4549

Gold down today, bitcoin UP  Grin

the silverbox update (comparison from the beginning of this thread, March 13th, 2012, gold=1690, Bitcoin=5.4):

Bitcoin is 95.70.  Gold is 1598.10

Bitcoin: 1672.22%

Gold:    -5.44%


Diff:  1774% advantage Bitcoin and Growing

thanks for doing this!  Cheesy
notme
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002


View Profile
March 29, 2013, 08:51:20 AM
 #4550



Anybody have a clue wtf those rectangle shaped patterns are?  I've never seen anything like that.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
tvbcof
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 4592
Merit: 1276


View Profile
March 29, 2013, 06:17:58 PM
 #4551

<graphic snipped>
Anybody have a clue wtf those rectangle shaped patterns are?  I've never seen anything like that.

Hard to know.  I looked at one of my physical Krugerrands and saw no sign of such behavior.  The damn thing weighs a bit over an once just as the day I bought it.


sig spam anywhere and self-moderated threads on the pol&soc board are for losers.
miscreanity
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1316
Merit: 1005


View Profile
March 29, 2013, 07:15:02 PM
 #4552

Anybody have a clue wtf those rectangle shaped patterns are?  I've never seen anything like that.

Paper gold dying.
tvbcof
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 4592
Merit: 1276


View Profile
March 29, 2013, 09:38:27 PM
 #4553

Anybody have a clue wtf those rectangle shaped patterns are?  I've never seen anything like that.

Paper gold dying.

Very cool!  I went through a several months phase of being engrossed with EKGs when I was around 2nd grade age.  Back in the day when these things were printed on paper.  A family friend would bring them back from the hospital for me and taught me various things about the patterns.  All of which I've subsequently forgotten.

Isn't it mind-blowing how there are such interesting matches across (seemingly) diverse systems?  The way computer viruses and biological viruses mimic one another, for instance, is almost spooky to me.


sig spam anywhere and self-moderated threads on the pol&soc board are for losers.
Melbustus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1722
Merit: 1003



View Profile
March 31, 2013, 07:03:58 AM
 #4554


The way computer viruses and biological viruses mimic one another, for instance, is almost spooky to me.



Same principles. It just means physical tangibility is not the presiding factor giving meaning to something. Good for bitcoin, in my opinion.

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
cypherdoc (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002



View Profile
April 01, 2013, 02:06:17 PM
 #4555

zerg?!!! Cheesy
cypherdoc (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002



View Profile
April 01, 2013, 03:59:40 PM
 #4556

The Daaash for Digital Caaash?!
molecular
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019



View Profile
April 01, 2013, 04:02:26 PM
 #4557

The Daaash for Digital Caaash?!

hahahaaa, I've been waiting for this in big letters from you for a long time!

PGP key molecular F9B70769 fingerprint 9CDD C0D3 20F8 279F 6BE0  3F39 FC49 2362 F9B7 0769
thezerg
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246
Merit: 1010


View Profile
April 01, 2013, 04:23:35 PM
 #4558

the silverbox update (comparison from the beginning of this thread, March 13th, 2012, gold=1690, Bitcoin=5.4):

Bitcoin:  yaaaaahoooooo!
Gold:     sitting on its ass doing nothin'...

Bitcoin is 105.99.  Gold is 1600.80
Bitcoin: 1862.78%
Gold:    -5.28%
Diff:  1972% advantage Bitcoin and Growing
cypherdoc (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002



View Profile
April 01, 2013, 04:28:25 PM
 #4559

the silverbox update (comparison from the beginning of this thread, March 13th, 2012, gold=1690, Bitcoin=5.4):

Bitcoin:  yaaaaahoooooo!
Gold:     sitting on its ass doing nothin'...

Bitcoin is 105.99.  Gold is 1600.80
Bitcoin: 1862.78%
Gold:    -5.28%
Diff:  1972% advantage Bitcoin and Growing

Bwahahahahaha!

you are going to be worse than I!!!! Cheesy
cypherdoc (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002



View Profile
April 01, 2013, 04:33:23 PM
 #4560

here is the most bullish statistic of the morning:

i use Bitcoin Widget on the home screen of my Android.  it does not have the ability to display  5 digits!!!

current price displayed:  $104.0
Pages: « 1 ... 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 [228] 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 ... 1557 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!