Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

[Sword Smith]

And all you guys rambling about an energy crisis: Are you aware that the past 20 years we have been able to find economically extractable oil faster than we are getting it out of the ground? I suggest you look into these numbers before continuing your ramblings:

I'm sure oil "mining" is finite like gold mining, but oil production is probably "infinite", I'm sure BP wouldn't be a viable long term investment if they couldn't convince shareholders that peek oil wasn't a problem in the near future.

So BPs numbers are a conspiracy? then please answer the following questions:
1) They have publishe these numbers since 1965, don't you think someone would have figured out whether they were lying or not since then? BP actually only reports the numbers that the different governments themselves report so you are welcome to double check these numbers from the governments if you o not believe BP.

The fact is energy consumption is increasing on a steady growth trajectory doubling roughly every 10 years, and while production capacity is practically endless the finite supply is not.

And what would you say if the supply, i.e., known economically extractable resources grew faster than the production rate? The known resources have risen 60+ % since 1990 whilst the production has only risen 30-something %. Check BP's numbers before continuing this discussion, please.

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[rpietila]

London Fix price is from the London Bullion Exchange, a physical market. Why is it not diverging form COMEX?

There is more to a market than fixing price. What matters to the manipulators, is whether they actually need to cede the physical possession of the gold to the buyer. Even if the gold is physical, if the buyer does not take delivery, it can still be used as part of the fractional reserve.

Then there is volume: You can try to convince people that gold's value has dropped, by giving it out for a lower price than would be the case without your actions. The silver market was inundated with actual, physical silver, coming from the manipulators' controlled holds, repeatedly several times post-1865. The demonetization of silver was a glut of physical silver dumped to the market on purpose. But you can only do this if you have the metal, and you are willing to part with it. TPTB do not hold gold religiously, they may dump it to burn speculators, if they want, given opportune time. While dumping, they probably don't need to lose control of more than 10% of their physical holdings, but they can completely destroy the price for years to come.

In 2008 the actual value of gold was higher than the controlled "physical" price, because the seller was unwilling to sell at the "official price". Behind the scenes, many things happened.

The situation was even more pronounced in silver, I could buy from some refineries etc., some silver for the "official price" of <$9/oz. Some of them knew I was playing the game, ready to publish if they refuse to sell, some others were probably ignorant of the whole thing. For them, the scrap supply was steadily coming and they just bought and sold according to the LBMA.

But I could sell all the silver that I managed to buy, for 35%-50% more, which was the street price (it never changed, just the "official price" crashed and recovered in 2008-2009) and I made my fortune. Of course it wasn't risk free, at one point all my property was confiscated by the government of Finland etc. Making money is not forbidden, speaking out is was. I don't believe I am in any danger now, since everything I say is already public information and the gold cartel does not have a way to win the battle with crypto. (If it does, I don't know what it is, and that makes me harmless since I cannot prevent something that I don't believe exists  )

I control about 50 ounces of gold, just in case it will retain its importance. Never sell out anything. Never go short anything. If you stick to these, and possess a certain intelligence, you will minimize risks, and likely become very wealthy. Also, quit reading newspapers and watching TV and believing anything anyone says. Be wary for everything that was invented between 1913-2013, the "dark ages" of humanity. Preferably live in old houses and definitely eat organic food. You will live longer.

The more this kind of people exist in the world, the less TPTB can do anything about it. And if we keep them in check and just live our lives as we want to, isn't this the whole point of the exercise? Soon they will join us. 

[jubalix]

coal can be made into oil, good for another 300 years

peak oil is n#1 scam

Coal can be made into oil but you should understand how coal reserves are estimated and calculated.
I suggest you watch all 8 episodes of this alternately answer the 3 questions in the first 2 minutes of this video before you call peak oil the n#1 scam.

A Bitcoin based economy is the most practical solution I have found to the problem.

yeah...a good portion of NSW and QLD = bigger than europe = almost all coal.....

anyway product substitution, actual city planing trams/trains, get rid of the car, and that massive nuclear explosion in the sky will see us through wayyy past the peak oil issue....

It really is a scam

just live near a train station.

[Melbustus]

...
Be wary for everything that was invented between 1913-2013...

Did you mean 1913-2009 ? ;-)

[smoothie]

...
Be wary for everything that was invented between 1913-2013...

Did you mean 1913-2009 ? ;-)

I think he is making a reference of the Federal Reserve.

[Adrian-x]

This is what anemia looks like...

[img]

LOL anemia = Iron-deficiency there is a substitute for that tungsten

[Melbustus]

...
Be wary for everything that was invented between 1913-2013...

Did you mean 1913-2009 ? ;-)

I think he is making a reference of the Federal Reserve.

Yes, he is. And I'm making a reference to the release of Satoshi's code as a better end-point marker for that era than simply 100yrs later.

[Adrian-x]

And what would you say if the supply, i.e., known economically extractable resources grew faster than the production rate? The known resources have risen 60+ % since 1990 whilst the production has only risen 30-something %. Check BP's numbers before continuing this discussion, please.

I'd say the past isn't a good predictor for the future, these facts paint a misleading picture, one that does not encourage the prudent use of fixed capital (oil) and encourages one to use more now as the supply appears endless and if not, it will be superseded by a quantum leap in technology.

Anyway not worth discussing here, (this is a forum about the demise of a more useful finite resource "gold") and I am not emotionally invested enough to continue elsewhere, my view is collectively we are all in this together and oil makes my life good, and the more diverse our economy the better so nothing lost by accepting alternate conclusions from the same data.

[marcus_of_augustus]

an enema?

This is what anemia looks like...

[oakpacific]

My Chinese fellows are lining up to buy gold, my sympathy for them.

[miscreanity]

Gold has a proof problem.

Have x-ray spectrometer, will travel.

Everyone seems to be stuck on the issue of faking gold. Ultrasound is much more effective, and far less expensive. As I explained, with only a few equally powerful participants in an exchange, it becomes nearly impossible for any one to defraud the others for long, if at all.

Gold is not going to be used as a transactional currency for any major period of time. It functions best as a reserve currency used for sizeable trade balance settlements. In other words: gold is the money of nations and entities far larger and more powerful than the individual. Yet any individual holding gold will have a piece of that immense wealth.

Bitcoin is the individual's method of garnering a similar handle on wealth. Ripple and other systems will develop into more effective fiat replacements, allowing Bitcoin to act as a settlement currency - gold's digital analog.

[tvbcof]

...
Bitcoin is the individual's method of garnering a similar handle on wealth[ed: as gold]. Ripple and other systems will develop into more effective fiat replacements, allowing Bitcoin to act as a settlement currency - gold's digital analog.

Although it makes a lot of sense and that is what I deeply hope for...

As far as I am concerned the jury is still out on whether that will be the case, and if it does turn out to be, whether the system will have bloated beyond the capacity where it could realistically be operated by a large pool of individuals.  The ability for the operational infrastructure to be cheap and widely dispersed is THE thing which gives Bitcoin it's backing and strength in my opinion.  As that erodes so does my confidence in the solution.

Bitcoin has, in my mind, made two mutually exclusive promises.  Decentralization and scalability.  People are becoming more and more aware of the dichotomy as time passes.  I already plan to liquidate at least half of my Bitcoin holdings based on the community consensus alone as this issue comes to the fore.  Naturally I'll be doing this when I judge the conditions to be in my best interest, and I've not even been tempted yet (beyond re-claiming my initial fiat outlay at least, and that happened on my initial schedule...vis-a-vis the profit multiples.)

[rpietila]

As far as I am concerned the jury is still out on whether that will be the case, and if it does turn out to be, whether the system will have bloated beyond the capacity where it could realistically be operated by a large pool of individuals.  The ability for the operational infrastructure to be cheap and widely dispersed is THE thing which gives Bitcoin it's backing and strength in my opinion.  As that erodes so does my confidence in the solution.

Most of the bitcoin network is not the technical network of computers running Bitcoin protocol. Bitcoin is in actuality a socio-economic power network of hundreds of supernodes and 100,000s of active nodes. That the majority of them don't have the Bitcoin client, is only economical, division of labor. The important thing is, Bitcoin is open source, so that the economic majority gets to choose the rules, not the coercive minority, and this will forever remain so, because of the design.

[tvbcof]

As far as I am concerned the jury is still out on whether that will be the case, and if it does turn out to be, whether the system will have bloated beyond the capacity where it could realistically be operated by a large pool of individuals.  The ability for the operational infrastructure to be cheap and widely dispersed is THE thing which gives Bitcoin it's backing and strength in my opinion.  As that erodes so does my confidence in the solution.

Most of the bitcoin network is not the technical network of computers running Bitcoin protocol. Bitcoin is in actuality a socio-economic power network of hundreds of supernodes and 100,000s of active nodes. That the majority of them don't have the Bitcoin client, is only economical, division of labor. The important thing is, Bitcoin is open source, so that the economic majority gets to choose the rules, not the coercive minority, and this will forever remain so, because of the design.

I disagree with this rosy analysis.  I put more emphasis on the actual hardware and network topology needed to allow the system to perform anywhere near it's potential.

But you bring up another entirely different potential failure mode which I consider as possibly coming into play.  That is, if the system is not working reasonably well for a wide range of participants, the participants could very well be drawn to something else.  Unlike with gold, it would be very low effort to actually develop a crypto-currency system upon which the masses could coalesce.  The bothersome part is that there are limited means to make the system work truly well for all but the early adopters (like most of us reading this probably are.)  Ultimately Bitcoin rests on the same 'historical record' as gold, but where gold's history goes back thousands of years, Bitcoin's goes back to 2009.

There is actually a link between my two concerns.  That is, if the Bitcoin network becomes sufficiently centralized and riding entirely on a backbone consisting of 'supernodes', it will be that much easier to attack the system and degrade it enough to make it even less appealing to the newcomers than it is simply due to the expensive proposition of 'buying in' at what will likely always appear to be the top.

[Mouser]

Paper PM are decreasing, but physical is selling out.

[cypherdoc]

Gold down. Bitcoin UP.

[Mouser]

Paper PM are decreasing, but physical is selling out.

It is selling. But where is it selling out?

Thailand.

Mr. Goat, you must already know this.

[Mouser]

http://silverdoctors.com/gold-run-there-is-not-one-single-ounce-of-gold-available-for-sale-in-bangkok/

April 7, 2013.

[cypherdoc]

http://silverdoctors.com/gold-run-there-is-not-one-single-ounce-of-gold-available-for-sale-in-bangkok/

April 7, 2013.

would you put it past a goldbug 100% invested in pm's to start rumors?

[Mouser]

http://silverdoctors.com/gold-run-there-is-not-one-single-ounce-of-gold-available-for-sale-in-bangkok/

April 7, 2013.

would you put it past a goldbug 100% invested in pm's to start rumors?

Point taken. Could be a false rumour.

Besides BTC, I'd rather have PM than fiat.

EDIT: http://investmentwatchblog.com/physical-gold-silver-shortages-are-accelerating-premiums-exploding/