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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1805899 times)
jmw74
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July 06, 2014, 02:08:45 AM
 #9221

PoS coins use the number of coins held as the basis for their signalling system. Since coins have an exchange rate, they obviously do not fulfill the criteria of having no value, either practical or intellectual. Thus PoS is not an viable mechanism for honest signalling.

Aren't you confusing the stake (which can be reused to provide signaling for many transactions over time) with the coins (which can only be used once)?

The stake is worthless as far as I can tell. Stake is just showing someone what you own, not actually giving it to them. Would someone pay me just because I show them that I have a lot of money in my wallet? I can show what's in there a million times without losing a cent.
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July 06, 2014, 03:48:48 AM
 #9222

PoS coins use the number of coins held as the basis for their signalling system. Since coins have an exchange rate, they obviously do not fulfill the criteria of having no value, either practical or intellectual. Thus PoS is not an viable mechanism for honest signalling.

Aren't you confusing the stake (which can be reused to provide signaling for many transactions over time) with the coins (which can only be used once)?

The stake is worthless as far as I can tell. Stake is just showing someone what you own, not actually giving it to them. Would someone pay me just because I show them that I have a lot of money in my wallet? I can show what's in there a million times without losing a cent.

Actually this is a compelling reason for PoS, it's a physiological phenomenon, I have power therefore I demand you concede.

I guess it's not an elegant power phenomenon.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
sidhujag
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July 06, 2014, 04:02:42 AM
 #9223

Its a fruitless debate neighbour tom doesnt care about peice of shit staking its not a big enough leap of technological advance to justify a move from bitcoin which has the network affect at full blast. Its a waste of time to think that pos will transport the coin to marketcap stardom, heck Id even go so far as to say that merge mining is a bigger plus to have in a coin than pos.. the security of the network is gauranteed with merge mining and it is green since it uses bitcoins network or whatever network is biggest at the moment.
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July 06, 2014, 06:58:57 AM
 #9224

PoS coins use the number of coins held as the basis for their signalling system. Since coins have an exchange rate, they obviously do not fulfill the criteria of having no value, either practical or intellectual. Thus PoS is not an viable mechanism for honest signalling.

Aren't you confusing the stake (which can be reused to provide signaling for many transactions over time) with the coins (which can only be used once)?

The stake is worthless as far as I can tell. Stake is just showing someone what you own, not actually giving it to them. Would someone pay me just because I show them that I have a lot of money in my wallet? I can show what's in there a million times without losing a cent.

No, it's you who is confusing. Let me rephrase the issue here and hero members correct me if I am wrong:

- You need to expend real world resources to produce something (otherwise) worthless (eg. hashes), which are expended when you use it to "vote" on which chain is the longest. You cannot double-spend hashes, so there is always a cost if you want in the game, and the reward (coinbase) tends to the marginal cost.

- In PoS, you can vote with the same coins in all universes of the present, as well as the past and future, and not produce anything, and it does not cost anything. So it is a worthless system to determine which chain is the longest (no cost == nothing at stake). The only reason PoS advocates argue against it is that they have not even understood the basic problem.

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July 06, 2014, 07:24:24 AM
 #9225

your a bit well behind the times man! lol

and if your so sure it can be done, why dont you do it? im sure the nxt guys would put a hefty bet on with you that you or anyone cant do it.

If this is your answer to Peter R.s well-founded and well-explained critcism of PoS/nxt, then it's very easy for me to make up my mind.

As for the supposed (not factual) bet you propose: they would have to give the potential attacker access to a key that used to have 51% stake at some point in the past first. I'm willing to bet they wont do that.

PGP key molecular F9B70769 fingerprint 9CDD C0D3 20F8 279F 6BE0  3F39 FC49 2362 F9B7 0769
rpietila
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July 06, 2014, 09:17:14 AM
 #9226

your a bit well behind the times man! lol

and if your so sure it can be done, why dont you do it? im sure the nxt guys would put a hefty bet on with you that you or anyone cant do it.

If this is your answer to Peter R.s well-founded and well-explained critcism of PoS/nxt, then it's very easy for me to make up my mind.

As for the supposed (not factual) bet you propose: they would have to give the potential attacker access to a key that used to have 51% stake at some point in the past first. I'm willing to bet they wont do that.

Then history is not on your side. Mark also turned crook at gunpoint.

jmw74
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July 06, 2014, 11:26:37 AM
 #9227

PoS coins use the number of coins held as the basis for their signalling system. Since coins have an exchange rate, they obviously do not fulfill the criteria of having no value, either practical or intellectual. Thus PoS is not an viable mechanism for honest signalling.

Aren't you confusing the stake (which can be reused to provide signaling for many transactions over time) with the coins (which can only be used once)?

The stake is worthless as far as I can tell. Stake is just showing someone what you own, not actually giving it to them. Would someone pay me just because I show them that I have a lot of money in my wallet? I can show what's in there a million times without losing a cent.

No, it's you who is confusing. Let me rephrase the issue here and hero members correct me if I am wrong:

- You need to expend real world resources to produce something (otherwise) worthless (eg. hashes), which are expended when you use it to "vote" on which chain is the longest. You cannot double-spend hashes, so there is always a cost if you want in the game, and the reward (coinbase) tends to the marginal cost.

- In PoS, you can vote with the same coins in all universes of the present, as well as the past and future, and not produce anything, and it does not cost anything. So it is a worthless system to determine which chain is the longest (no cost == nothing at stake). The only reason PoS advocates argue against it is that they have not even understood the basic problem.

I agree with you, but this is a different point than the one Justus was making. He was saying the proof has to have no value anywhere else. To me, at least on this criteria, PoS seems to fit.
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July 06, 2014, 08:10:54 PM
 #9228

Interesting discussion with Vitalik and some of the nxt guys happening today after he posted his Stake article today. Looks like he admits nxt does things a little better then he thought:https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/bounty-for-successful-nothing-at-stake-attack/msg60166/#msg60166

A few of his ideas from the article are also currently being implemented into nxt in a feature they call economic clustering. Seems to me like nxt is spearheading some incredible advancements and are not shy to keep adding new powerful features to the protocol quickly. At its very worst it will be a great case study when determining how to improve bitcoins mining mechanism.

Not every time someone mentions another coin is to pump the shit out of it, some people actually have the belief that good advancements can come from experimenting with this technology in a number of ways. Just like those who were quick to dismiss bitcoin are paying for it, you'd be wise to keep your eyes open to new ideas.
kodtycoon
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July 06, 2014, 08:32:35 PM
 #9229

Interesting discussion with Vitalik and some of the nxt guys happening today after he posted his Stake article today. Looks like he admits nxt does things a little better then he thought:https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/bounty-for-successful-nothing-at-stake-attack/msg60166/#msg60166

A few of his ideas from the article are also currently being implemented into nxt in a feature they call economic clustering. Seems to me like nxt is spearheading some incredible advancements and are not shy to keep adding new powerful features to the protocol quickly. At its very worst it will be a great case study when determining how to improve bitcoins mining mechanism.

Not every time someone mentions another coin is to pump the shit out of it, some people actually have the belief that good advancements can come from experimenting with this technology in a number of ways. Just like those who were quick to dismiss bitcoin are paying for it, you'd be wise to keep your eyes open to new ideas.
bravo sir. I'm quoting this so it can really sink in.

"Pioneering a revolutionary novel consensus mechanism called proof of importance."
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July 06, 2014, 10:52:03 PM
 #9230

Interesting discussion with Vitalik and some of the nxt guys happening today after he posted his Stake article today. Looks like he admits nxt does things a little better then he thought:https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/bounty-for-successful-nothing-at-stake-attack/msg60166/#msg60166

A few of his ideas from the article are also currently being implemented into nxt in a feature they call economic clustering. Seems to me like nxt is spearheading some incredible advancements and are not shy to keep adding new powerful features to the protocol quickly. At its very worst it will be a great case study when determining how to improve bitcoins mining mechanism.

Not every time someone mentions another coin is to pump the shit out of it, some people actually have the belief that good advancements can come from experimenting with this technology in a number of ways. Just like those who were quick to dismiss bitcoin are paying for it, you'd be wise to keep your eyes open to new ideas.
bravo sir. I'm quoting this so it can really sink in.

nxt seems to be a great platform for experimentation.  A research oriented cousin is exactly what Bitcoin needs.  What will be interesting to watch is how Bitcoin handles it if nxt actually comes up with something interesting and can prove it works how they think it should.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
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windjc
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July 06, 2014, 11:03:03 PM
 #9231

POW fanboys like (left blank) haven't done enough research to understand how POS really works. But it doesn't matter. POW fanboys should be more worried about

A) keeping mining emissions from becoming a environmental black eye
B) avoiding the 51% threat
C) making sure miners actually can get compensated enough with fees by the time the halving after next occurs.

IMO, the fact that POW fanboys even spend time arguing about POS makes them look desperate. POS fanboys aren't worried about POW.

If you haven't heard about what is happening with GAME, check it out.  It's revolutionizing gaming. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1266597.0
windjc
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July 06, 2014, 11:05:30 PM
 #9232

Interesting discussion with Vitalik and some of the nxt guys happening today after he posted his Stake article today. Looks like he admits nxt does things a little better then he thought:https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/bounty-for-successful-nothing-at-stake-attack/msg60166/#msg60166

A few of his ideas from the article are also currently being implemented into nxt in a feature they call economic clustering. Seems to me like nxt is spearheading some incredible advancements and are not shy to keep adding new powerful features to the protocol quickly. At its very worst it will be a great case study when determining how to improve bitcoins mining mechanism.

Not every time someone mentions another coin is to pump the shit out of it, some people actually have the belief that good advancements can come from experimenting with this technology in a number of ways. Just like those who were quick to dismiss bitcoin are paying for it, you'd be wise to keep your eyes open to new ideas.
bravo sir. I'm quoting this so it can really sink in.

nxt seems to be a great platform for experimentation.  A research oriented cousin is exactly what Bitcoin needs.  What will be interesting to watch is how Bitcoin handles it if nxt actually comes up with something interesting and can prove it works how they think it should.

If?  Nxt has the first functioning decentralized exchange. In a few weeks Nxt will have the first functioning multi-gateway exchange. These are first to market revolutionary technologies.

If you haven't heard about what is happening with GAME, check it out.  It's revolutionizing gaming. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1266597.0
kodtycoon
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July 06, 2014, 11:09:39 PM
 #9233

Interesting discussion with Vitalik and some of the nxt guys happening today after he posted his Stake article today. Looks like he admits nxt does things a little better then he thought:https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/bounty-for-successful-nothing-at-stake-attack/msg60166/#msg60166

A few of his ideas from the article are also currently being implemented into nxt in a feature they call economic clustering. Seems to me like nxt is spearheading some incredible advancements and are not shy to keep adding new powerful features to the protocol quickly. At its very worst it will be a great case study when determining how to improve bitcoins mining mechanism.

Not every time someone mentions another coin is to pump the shit out of it, some people actually have the belief that good advancements can come from experimenting with this technology in a number of ways. Just like those who were quick to dismiss bitcoin are paying for it, you'd be wise to keep your eyes open to new ideas.
bravo sir. I'm quoting this so it can really sink in.

nxt seems to be a great platform for experimentation.  A research oriented cousin is exactly what Bitcoin needs.  What will be interesting to watch is how Bitcoin handles it if nxt actually comes up with something interesting and can prove it works how they think it should.

experimentation like...


- development plan for nxt for the next few months.

note: these are only the core features too. theres also also automated transactions (aka. ethereum death blow) ready for testing on testnet and as said above multigateway in final testing plus much more.
Quote
This is a summary of the development planning discussion we had today.

1. Release 1.2.1e will be scheduled in a few days, with bugfixes to DGS. After more testing, 1.2.2 should be ready for main net, planned for the week of July 14th. It will have DGS, Alias Transfer, and Encrypted Messages features set to be enabled about a week after the release, to give everyone time to upgrade. Therefore these features will go live before end of July.

2. In parallel with 1.2 bugfixes, JLP will finish the work on the 1.3 database persistence branch, which will have no new features and will be compatible with 1.2. After the release of 1.3, in August, both will be supported for some time while making sure 1.3 is stable and fixing any database related performance problems.

3. As 1.3 stabilizes, kushti will port his Voting System branch to also use database persistence, and merge it to what will become the 1.4 release. The 1.4 release will also have the AE dividends payments feature already mostly done by CfB, and possibly Smart Leasing, which ChuckOne will be working on.

4. The Monetary System branch will be delayed a bit as CfB plans to include Mixing (CoinShuffle) in it. The mixing will only work for Monetary System currencies, not for NXT payments. The MS branch needs to be reviewed by me, ported to use database persistence, and merged to the develop branch, to be expected no sooner than 1.5.

5. After MS, CfB will work on finishing Economic Clustering, Anti-Deflation, and the next steps to Transparent Forging, such as Time Warp.

6. After Smart Leasing, ChuckOne plans to focus on Atomic Cross-Chain Trading.

7. Kushti will work on blockchain pruning, improvements to Asset Exchange and DGS, and possibly helping with TF.

8. After the db work and managing the releases of the above features, I will look into Phasing, which includes Multisig Transactions and Escrow and is also related to the Atomic Cross-Chain Trading project.

9. The Instant Transactions proposal by Matt is still in the design phase, and is also related to Transparent Forging. ChuckOne would also assist with IT design.

@windjc... well said

and no i dont think us PoS fanboys are worried.. Wink

i dont think PoW fanboys can say the same..

"Pioneering a revolutionary novel consensus mechanism called proof of importance."
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July 07, 2014, 12:11:35 AM
 #9234

from the NXT homepage:

"The difference between the Nxt Brain Wallet and Bitcoin is there is no automated generation of your passphrase/private key and there is no wallet.dat-like file. A Bitcoin private key still can be bruteforced without access to created wallet.dat file."

who's desperate?  that is blatant false advertising.
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July 07, 2014, 12:22:53 AM
 #9235

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.ch/2014/07/spain-issues-retroactive-003-tax-on.html

Spain issues retroactive tax to Jan 1, 2014.

Buy Bitcoin.
kodtycoon
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July 07, 2014, 12:49:11 AM
 #9236

from the NXT homepage:

"The difference between the Nxt Brain Wallet and Bitcoin is there is no automated generation of your passphrase/private key and there is no wallet.dat-like file. A Bitcoin private key still can be bruteforced without access to created wallet.dat file."

who's desperate?  that is blatant false advertising.

but thats true? a private key is a string of characters yes? why can a string of characters not be brute forced the same as brain wallets? theres no difference. a seed password for an electrum wallet can be brute forced, its just harder the longer the passphrase is, same goes for nxt passphrases. stop spreading fud.

"Pioneering a revolutionary novel consensus mechanism called proof of importance."
cypherdoc
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July 07, 2014, 01:07:36 AM
 #9237

No, it's you who is confusing. Let me rephrase the issue here and hero members correct me if I am wrong:

- You need to expend real world resources to produce something (otherwise) worthless (eg. hashes), which are expended when you use it to "vote" on which chain is the longest. You cannot double-spend hashes, so there is always a cost if you want in the game, and the reward (coinbase) tends to the marginal cost.

you didn't phrase this quite right.  hashes are not "votes on which chain is longest".  when a miner receives notification of a block, he checks to verify that the submitted hash conforms to the target (certain # leading 0's) and verifies that all tx's within it are valid.  once verified, he adds it on top of the chain he has in memory and immediately starts hashing away on a new header in a race to create a hash that is once again below the target and would create yet another new block.  

here's where "voting" comes in.  if 2 different blocks are seen on the network simultaneously, the Northern Hemisphere might decide to build on one block (call it block #1) while the Southern Hemisphere decides to build off the other block (call it block #2).  this temporarily creates a fork for theoretically 10 minutes.  it would be exceedingly rare for another pair of blocks to arrive once again simultaneously extending this fork.  instead, the next single block the network sees will resolve the fork.  so if the Northern Hemisphere sees a new block first (block #3) it will add that block on top of its side of the fork (on top of block #1) and then immediately the Southern Hemisphere will see that it made a mistake and will "orphan" the block #2 it had been incorrectly trying to build off of and rejoin the Norhern Hemisphere and add block #1 and block #3 to its chain and then race to build a new block on top of block #3.

"voting" only consists of deciding to abandon (orphan) the chain it was working on to move to the other chain that is longer and has nothing to do with measuring hashes in a direct sense. in fact, no one on the network can actually measure the # of hashes performed by a block that has shown up.  nodes and miners only infer this by the time it took to show up since the last block.  by the mere fact that the other chain is longer means that it has performed the highest amount of POW via hashing.
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July 07, 2014, 01:17:34 AM
 #9238

from the NXT homepage:

"The difference between the Nxt Brain Wallet and Bitcoin is there is no automated generation of your passphrase/private key and there is no wallet.dat-like file. A Bitcoin private key still can be bruteforced without access to created wallet.dat file."

who's desperate?  that is blatant false advertising.

but thats true? a private key is a string of characters yes? why can a string of characters not be brute forced the same as brain wallets? theres no difference. a seed password for an electrum wallet can be brute forced, its just harder the longer the passphrase is, same goes for nxt passphrases. stop spreading fud.

i read that sentence several times and it's referring to private keys generated in a wallet.dat.  private keys in the Bitcoin-qt wallet are randomly generated integers btwn 1 and 2256  that then are used to create 256 bit public keys via the trapdoor ECDLP.  then the public key gets sequentially hashed via sha256 and then ripemd160 creating an address with 160 bits of security.  these are not brute forceable by any known means in any feasible timeframe.

yes, NXT is spreading FUD.
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July 07, 2014, 01:20:31 AM
 #9239

Bitcoin and alts diverging again.  just look at Litecoin and Ripple:

kodtycoon
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July 07, 2014, 01:23:56 AM
 #9240

from the NXT homepage:

"The difference between the Nxt Brain Wallet and Bitcoin is there is no automated generation of your passphrase/private key and there is no wallet.dat-like file. A Bitcoin private key still can be bruteforced without access to created wallet.dat file."

who's desperate?  that is blatant false advertising.

but thats true? a private key is a string of characters yes? why can a string of characters not be brute forced the same as brain wallets? theres no difference. a seed password for an electrum wallet can be brute forced, its just harder the longer the passphrase is, same goes for nxt passphrases. stop spreading fud.

i read that sentence several times and it's referring to private keys generated in a wallet.dat.  private keys in the Bitcoin-qt wallet are randomly generated 2256 integers that then are used to create 2256 public keys via ECDLP.  then the public key gets sequentially hashed via sha256 and then ripemd160 creating an address with 2160 bits of security.  these are not brute forceable by any known means in any feasible timeframe.

yes, NXT is spreading FUD.

im guna do something that few people do on this forum and admit that i could be/probably am wrong about bruteforcing private keys. but the tech behind nxt still stands and if some misinformation on a website is the only argument you can come up with against nxt as a technology, i see that as progress.

can you link to where it says that about brute forcing private keys?

"Pioneering a revolutionary novel consensus mechanism called proof of importance."
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