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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1956370 times)
NewLiberty
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August 02, 2014, 12:31:10 AM
 #10081

Part of me (the cynical part) thinks that people like Rickards and Shiff are just playing dumb. I would if I were them, there are several reasons to do so (not least that Schiff runs a business based around gold as money/value store).

Bitcoin is entirely unproven. It is immature.  It has barely been in the public eye for long enough to be seriously studied and reviewed.

Hmmm, the sort of people I would take seriously have already put Bitcoin through a great deal of study and provenance, ever had your wallet stolen? This is just like those that say things like "one day, Bitcoin will be a viable method for transferring money". When what they're really saying is "one day, I'll stop putting it off and use the damn thing". I've personally been using bitcoin for all of the purposes that it supposedly can't be considered for yet for several years now.

The software works.  The math works.  What remains is it being money wherever you might expect it to be money, and for less people looking at you funny when you want to give it to them for something they value.

Not so many people will refuse gold as payment, world wide.

Money is more than working software, money is in the minds of people, it is memory.
I agree with you that the review of Bitcoin is good enough for me, and I prefer bitcoin over any other payment type.  We are not most people, yet.

Even if, and after, BTC gains popular acceptance, it will take some history to pass by, decades, before it will be deemed a success.  The world is perverse.  The best things are not always the ones that win or even survive.  

I will never give up on Bitcoin.  I made a promise to someone that I refuse to let down.  I will keep that promise come what may, but I know better than to take success for granted.  There is a lot of hard work between here and there, and much stacked against us.

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August 02, 2014, 12:32:16 AM
 #10082

By that measure Bitcoin is a pyramid scheme too. While civilization seems to be degrading along with the global financial system Bitcoin is just getting started. I think Bitcoin going to really inflate that civilization bubble Type 1 civilization here we come. Smiley
# I dont think it fits that definition because its value rises from usage but pyramid can be just purchase.
A pyramid has no usage and for gains to occur it must employ ever more greater numbers or it all fails.  I dont think btc requires more people just to carry on

Quote
Schiff runs a business based around gold as money/value store
Its a minor recent part of his business, he mostly manages funds and he could choose gold and btc if wanted but his line is really about actual 'physical' ownership I think.  They probably do own foreign bonds though which is fiat.  Also shares can end up as broken promises also so I dont see why it should be impossible to convince him of worth here.  BTC is superior in many ways but it does not carry title to anything 'solid'

Schiff mentioned a gold based crypto currency, damned if I ever heard of it.  P something ?  He still disagreed as its merely token or 1% of gold worth not 1:1    He then went onto describe a currency that was run with a central deposit and had no miners, you just rely on the vault to verify the gold and issue gold digital tokens - of course this isnt crypto currency at all more like GLD  which we've had quite a while  Grin
NewLiberty
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August 02, 2014, 12:35:13 AM
 #10083

By that measure Bitcoin is a pyramid scheme too. While civilization seems to be degrading along with the global financial system Bitcoin is just getting started. I think Bitcoin going to really inflate that civilization bubble Type 1 civilization here we come. Smiley

Pyramid Scheme:


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August 02, 2014, 12:58:42 AM
 #10084

He doesn't understand that an algorithm of consensus is superior to authority. Turk get's it.
When did you change your mind on this subject?
huh? I've always been a Bitcoin permabull. The minor issues I've had were regarding absolute anonymity and scalability. I need to make a trip to Austin one day soon, probably later this month.
Last time I remember you had some different thoughts about effective governments would be at dictating the fate of cryptocurrencies.

Anyway, if you do come down do it on the 10th. That's when we're bringing in Charlie Shrem in via Google Hangout.
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August 02, 2014, 12:59:58 AM
 #10085

By that measure Bitcoin is a pyramid scheme too. While civilization seems to be degrading along with the global financial system Bitcoin is just getting started. I think Bitcoin going to really inflate that civilization bubble Type 1 civilization here we come. Smiley

Pyramid Scheme:


hehe if you superimpose the pyramid with its opposite it completes a Star of David whose points point to

                   ▄  ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
                  █████████████▄
                 ████████████████▄
              ███████▄      ▀▀███▄
     ████                        ▐██▌
   ▄██████▄                      ████
  ▄████████▄                 ▄██▄▀███
 ████████████               ▄████▄▀▀
 ▀██████████▀              ████████
 ▀▄ ▀▀██▀▀ ▄▀            ▄██████████
   ███▄▄███             ▐████████████
 ██ ▀████▀               ▀▀██████▀▀
████▄                   ██▄ ▄██
████                       ▀██████▀
 ██▌         ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄       ▀███▀
  ███▄▄▄   ▄▄▄███████        
    ▀███████████████
      ▀▀▀██████▀▀▀█



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -






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cypherdoc
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August 02, 2014, 01:01:36 AM
 #10086

By that measure Bitcoin is a pyramid scheme too. While civilization seems to be degrading along with the global financial system Bitcoin is just getting started. I think Bitcoin going to really inflate that civilization bubble Type 1 civilization here we come. Smiley

Pyramid Scheme:


hehe if you superimpose the pyramid with its opposite it completes a Star of David whose points point to


no mas?  Grin
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August 02, 2014, 01:03:03 AM
 #10087

Couldnt say I agree on that one even though Madoff did accuse the same and to be fair he really isnt that far wrong.   much as I hate to say it, government does have a use, provide a utility for its operation.  It might be a giant leaky bucket of failing inefficency and dangerously self justified and self serving convolution but there is some water carried and tasks of some use to society.  Some functions of government do provide security.  Its often the case that private companies would be superior not that government operations are totally false.

  A true pyramid money really does go in one end  and is never to be seen again hence is no where near to investment at all
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August 02, 2014, 01:23:11 AM
 #10088

best not ignore:

Erdogan
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August 02, 2014, 01:27:13 AM
 #10089

Couldnt say I agree on that one even though Madoff did accuse the same and to be fair he really isnt that far wrong.   much as I hate to say it, government does have a use, provide a utility for its operation.  It might be a giant leaky bucket of failing inefficency and dangerously self justified and self serving convolution but there is some water carried and tasks of some use to society.  Some functions of government do provide security.  Its often the case that private companies would be superior not that government operations are totally false.

  A true pyramid money really does go in one end  and is never to be seen again hence is no where near to investment at all

Madoff ran a ponzi. He deceived his customers. A pyramid is open, everybody knows the endgame. (Most people underestimate the speed of which an exponential function increases). Bitcoin could be understood as a pyramid, except the endgame is not expected to be crash and burn.

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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


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August 02, 2014, 01:39:48 AM
 #10090

He doesn't understand that an algorithm of consensus is superior to authority. Turk get's it.
When did you change your mind on this subject?
huh? I've always been a Bitcoin permabull. The minor issues I've had were regarding absolute anonymity and scalability. I need to make a trip to Austin one day soon, probably later this month.
Last time I remember you had some different thoughts about effective governments would be at dictating the fate of cryptocurrencies.

I appreciate the sentiment of the anti-establishment people. Prisons and unemployment lines are full of them. The best way to win a war isn't always a direct assault. I'm in the long game. My goal is to eliminate the need for money as well as governments. To me, Bitcoin is just a transitional technology that will help us get there and help me with my rapidly approaching golden years.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
thefunkybits
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August 02, 2014, 02:25:36 AM
 #10091

By that measure Bitcoin is a pyramid scheme too. While civilization seems to be degrading along with the global financial system Bitcoin is just getting started. I think Bitcoin going to really inflate that civilization bubble Type 1 civilization here we come. Smiley

Pyramid Scheme:


hehe if you superimpose the pyramid with its opposite it completes a Star of David whose points point to



and the other side...




Draw it for yourself  Wink




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HeliKopterBen
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August 02, 2014, 02:56:42 PM
 #10092

The problem I have with gold bugs who advocate a gold backed currency such as Rickards and Schiff is that gold backed currency has been tried and failed. It failed because of a central point of failure and in the US this central point of failure is the federal reserve and it failed to maintain a dollar peg to gold.  Einstein's definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result."  By that definition, all gold bugs who want a gold backed currency are insane because it has been tried and failed miserably.  Don't try it again.  Bitcoiners are the sane ones for trying something different.

A gold backed digital currency would be great but these three conditions cannot exist simultaneously for money:
1.  Digital
2.  Backed by gold
3.  No third party risk (no central point of failure - decentralized)

The next best thing is to have 1 and 3 exist simultaneously, which leaves us with bitcoin.

Counterfeit:  made in imitation of something else with intent to deceive:  merriam-webster
cypherdoc
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August 02, 2014, 05:07:59 PM
 #10093

Bears weakening:

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August 02, 2014, 05:35:03 PM
 #10094

and the other side...



Draw it for yourself  Wink

Nice, I haven't seen that one before.  Shocked

lol annunaki

zomg evil lizards from planet x

quick ma, hide the gold!   Grin

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Core GUI - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }
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Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

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NewLiberty
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August 02, 2014, 05:59:01 PM
 #10095

The problem I have with gold bugs who advocate a gold backed currency such as Rickards and Schiff is that gold backed currency has been tried and failed. It failed because of a central point of failure and in the US this central point of failure is the federal reserve and it failed to maintain a dollar peg to gold.  Einstein's definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result."  By that definition, all gold bugs who want a gold backed currency are insane because it has been tried and failed miserably.  Don't try it again.  Bitcoiners are the sane ones for trying something different.

A gold backed digital currency would be great but these three conditions cannot exist simultaneously for money:
1.  Digital
2.  Backed by gold
3.  No third party risk (no central point of failure - decentralized)

The next best thing is to have 1 and 3 exist simultaneously, which leaves us with bitcoin.

With Bitcoin Specie, we get all three.

The problem with #2-#3 is when it is all kept in some central vault.
A gold coin standard with a flexible free market valuation gives all three.
Bitcoin does this now.  You can buy gold or silver with bitcoin, and sell them for bitcoin.
Gold and silver provide pure anonymity in point of sale transactions.  They are not so good at being sent over the internet as Bitcoin.
Bitcoin is not quite as good at point of sale.  With both, you get Rickards dream coin.  Its already here.  Its called Bitcoin.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
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August 02, 2014, 06:37:35 PM
 #10096

I wish I could sell aall my gold for BTC, but its so little that its not worth it
HeliKopterBen
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August 03, 2014, 07:36:59 AM
 #10097

The problem I have with gold bugs who advocate a gold backed currency such as Rickards and Schiff is that gold backed currency has been tried and failed. It failed because of a central point of failure and in the US this central point of failure is the federal reserve and it failed to maintain a dollar peg to gold.  Einstein's definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result."  By that definition, all gold bugs who want a gold backed currency are insane because it has been tried and failed miserably.  Don't try it again.  Bitcoiners are the sane ones for trying something different.

A gold backed digital currency would be great but these three conditions cannot exist simultaneously for money:
1.  Digital
2.  Backed by gold
3.  No third party risk (no central point of failure - decentralized)

The next best thing is to have 1 and 3 exist simultaneously, which leaves us with bitcoin.

With Bitcoin Specie, we get all three.

Bitccoin is not backed by gold so we don't get #2.

Quote
The problem with #2-#3 is when it is all kept in some central vault.
A gold coin standard with a flexible free market valuation gives all three.
Bitcoin does this now.  You can buy gold or silver with bitcoin, and sell them for bitcoin.
This is not a true gold standard.  If it were, then a fixed amount of bitcoin would be directly redeemable for a fixed amount of gold.  This cannot exist in a trusless environment.  What you speak of are just market rates.  By your logic, the Argentinian peso is backed by gold.

Quote
Gold and silver provide pure anonymity in point of sale transactions.  They are not so good at being sent over the internet as Bitcoin.
Bitcoin is not quite as good at point of sale.  With both, you get Rickards dream coin.  Its already here.  Its called Bitcoin.

Gold and silver cannot be sent over the internet.  Period.  All you can do is send an IOU for gold or silver over the internet, which requires third party trust.  Bitcoin gives us 1 and 3 but not 2.  All 3 cannot exist simultaneously.  Unless someone can make all 3 happen at the same time, then bitcoin is our best option.

Counterfeit:  made in imitation of something else with intent to deceive:  merriam-webster
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August 03, 2014, 07:41:33 AM
 #10098

The problem I have with gold bugs who advocate a gold backed currency such as Rickards and Schiff is that gold backed currency has been tried and failed. It failed because of a central point of failure and in the US this central point of failure is the federal reserve and it failed to maintain a dollar peg to gold.  Einstein's definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result."  By that definition, all gold bugs who want a gold backed currency are insane because it has been tried and failed miserably.  Don't try it again.  Bitcoiners are the sane ones for trying something different.

A gold backed digital currency would be great but these three conditions cannot exist simultaneously for money:
1.  Digital
2.  Backed by gold
3.  No third party risk (no central point of failure - decentralized)

The next best thing is to have 1 and 3 exist simultaneously, which leaves us with bitcoin.

With Bitcoin Specie, we get all three.

Bitccoin is not backed by gold so we don't get #2.

I hereby promise to give 1 oz of gold for 21,000,000 BTC or fractions of 1 oz of gold for respective fractions of Bitcoin to anyone who is willing to meet me in person. PM me if you want to redeem.

Here we go. Bitcoin is backed by gold.

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August 03, 2014, 02:09:42 PM
 #10099

"In other words, were we to return to panic mode, the value of the implied taxpayer backing would rocket. The threat of high-cost taxpayer bailouts remains very much with us."

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/08/03/business/big-banks-still-a-risk.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0&referrer=
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August 03, 2014, 02:16:19 PM
 #10100

The problem I have with gold bugs who advocate a gold backed currency such as Rickards and Schiff is that gold backed currency has been tried and failed. It failed because of a central point of failure and in the US this central point of failure is the federal reserve and it failed to maintain a dollar peg to gold.  Einstein's definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result."  By that definition, all gold bugs who want a gold backed currency are insane because it has been tried and failed miserably.  Don't try it again.  Bitcoiners are the sane ones for trying something different.

A gold backed digital currency would be great but these three conditions cannot exist simultaneously for money:
1.  Digital
2.  Backed by gold
3.  No third party risk (no central point of failure - decentralized)

The next best thing is to have 1 and 3 exist simultaneously, which leaves us with bitcoin.

With Bitcoin Specie, we get all three.

Bitccoin is not backed by gold so we don't get #2.

I hereby promise to give 1 oz of gold for 21,000,000 BTC or fractions of 1 oz of gold for respective fractions of Bitcoin to anyone who is willing to meet me in person. PM me if you want to redeem.

Here we go. Bitcoin is backed by gold.


Of course, you all know that backing is a concept that only applies at the institutional level of gubmint, the emitter of paper fiat. If they aren't willing to play ball by backing their worthless paper with Bitcoin, or even gold, your attempts to prove a point are pointless. That is what is required along with a free and open market in Bitcoin.
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