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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1934233 times)
zeetubes
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July 18, 2014, 07:31:14 PM
 #9661

I was expecting gold to get taken down below $1300 before the close but it's around $1311 at this point. Silver is nudging $21. Bitcoin has some nice momentum.
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July 18, 2014, 07:42:31 PM
 #9662

everyone needs to read the NYDFS document carefully, formulate your own opinions, and submit any concerns or change proposals to Lawsky as soon as possible.  NY is an important and pivotal test case concerning regulation:

http://www.dfs.ny.gov/about/press2014/pr1407171-vc.pdf
I can't muster much more than a "meh" reaction to the document.

I actually hope some of the worse provisions, like forcing licenced companies to hold their profits and retained earnings in USD, stay in, because when Bitcoin instantly routes around that requirements the lulz will be epic.

If that provision survives the review process, I'll write a "Tax Avoidance for Dummies" article to explain exactly how to bypass it for the benefit of any Bitcoin company owner who might be deficient in imagination.
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July 18, 2014, 07:45:31 PM
 #9663

"At this point, most of my friends are neutral or positive about Bitcoin... EXCEPT the academic economists. I think the fact that Bitcoin was not invented within the sphere of academic economics really bothers them (not that they would ever put it that way...)"

It probably pisses the academics off that even though bitcoin is based on some really complex math and technology, at a higher level, it brings back the concept of money (and gasp, economics) to very simple rules and concepts. And hence undermines economists' attempts to make it more seem complex than it really is.

when you have a predictable money supply, not dependent on corrupt human intervention, one can reason their way through what were previously deemed complex economic concepts.  this is why logical, mathematically inclined ppl early on in Bitcoin's history were able to identify the key tenets behind what it represents.  if you were willing to take a risk, this has paid off enormously.

and even gold bugs have benefited (sold more gold) from the bitcoin boom.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
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July 18, 2014, 07:49:01 PM
 #9664

everyone needs to read the NYDFS document carefully, formulate your own opinions, and submit any concerns or change proposals to Lawsky as soon as possible.  NY is an important and pivotal test case concerning regulation:

http://www.dfs.ny.gov/about/press2014/pr1407171-vc.pdf
I can't muster much more than a "meh" reaction to the document.

I actually hope some of the worse provisions, like forcing licenced companies to hold their profits and retained earnings in USD, stay in, because when Bitcoin instantly routes around that requirements the lulz will be epic.

If that provision survives the review process, I'll write a "Tax Avoidance for Dummies" article to explain exactly how to bypass it for the benefit of any Bitcoin company owner who might be deficient in imagination.

I'm sure Circle plan to have an insurance reserve made up of bitcoin profits, the reserve requirements and risk profile will just change with profitability allowing them to keep there bitcoin profits. 

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
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July 18, 2014, 07:56:34 PM
 #9665

I'm sure Circle plan to have an insurance reserve made up of bitcoin profits, the reserve requirements and risk profile will just change with profitability allowing them to keep there bitcoin profits. 
Think of all the tricks companies use to make their profits show up in, for example Ireland, instead of the US.

Lots of ways to do it, but the problem is that bringing the dollars back from Ireland can be tricky because those dollars need to be moved through the legacy banking system.

Bitcoin doesn't have that problem.

Suppose you have a business that's licenced in NY, but you want to keep all your profits in BTC.

No problem - in addition to your US corporation, register a corporation in Bermuda (or other suitable jurisdiction) that holds or purports to hold some kind of IP.

Have the US corporation license the IP from the foreign corporation, with the fees to be paid in BTC, at a rate that coincidentally means the US company is barely or negatively profitable (this is how Hollywood makes sure all its movies lose money no matter how successful they are).

Foreign company accepts the license fees and pays them out to shareholders as dividends. No interaction with the legacy banking system is required.

Tax avoidance FTW.
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July 18, 2014, 08:09:45 PM
 #9666

Bitcoin and the history of money:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP0jCjyrew8

Well-done in my mind since it does away with 2 widespread myths:

  • money emerged to replace barter transactions (wrong, it emerged to track debt)
  • gold has intrinsic value

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molecular
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July 18, 2014, 08:14:10 PM
 #9667


I still value the overstock story way higher, because that guy is really trying to trickle bitcoin acceptance down the supply chain.

Now if dell did that... I'd be really excited.

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molecular
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July 18, 2014, 08:17:35 PM
 #9668

dammit I just went with HP, every DELL I have ever had has performed flawlessly to EOL

One criticism I have for dell: they used to (still do) use custom power supplies and motherboards with 2 wires on the pinout switched, otherwise all ATX standard. Result after trying to replace a power supply in one of these machine: a flash, a bang... then smelly electronics smoke and a brand-new machine from a manufacturer actually honoring standards.

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July 18, 2014, 08:23:56 PM
 #9669


I still value the overstock story way higher, because that guy is really trying to trickle bitcoin acceptance down the supply chain.

Now if dell did that... I'd be really excited.

well, i get that but when Dell's revenues are 34x higher than Overstock's, sit up.
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July 18, 2014, 08:25:55 PM
 #9670

I'm sure Circle plan to have an insurance reserve made up of bitcoin profits, the reserve requirements and risk profile will just change with profitability allowing them to keep there bitcoin profits. 
Think of all the tricks companies use to make their profits show up in, for example Ireland, instead of the US.

Lots of ways to do it, but the problem is that bringing the dollars back from Ireland can be tricky because those dollars need to be moved through the legacy banking system.

Bitcoin doesn't have that problem.

Suppose you have a business that's licenced in NY, but you want to keep all your profits in BTC.

No problem - in addition to your US corporation, register a corporation in Bermuda (or other suitable jurisdiction) that holds or purports to hold some kind of IP.

Have the US corporation license the IP from the foreign corporation, with the fees to be paid in BTC, at a rate that coincidentally means the US company is barely or negatively profitable (this is how Hollywood makes sure all its movies lose money no matter how successful they are).

Foreign company accepts the license fees and pays them out to shareholders as dividends. No interaction with the legacy banking system is required.

Tax avoidance FTW.

except that every material change in business model from original application needs to submit to further review and approval.
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July 18, 2014, 08:37:11 PM
 #9671

except that every material change in business model from original application needs to submit to further review and approval.
So don't change the business model from the original application.

Licensing IP from a foreign company is just one example of how companies already shift profits around internationally.
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July 18, 2014, 08:41:40 PM
 #9672

except that every material change in business model from original application needs to submit to further review and approval.
So don't change the business model from the original application.

Licensing IP from a foreign company is just one example of how companies already shift profits around internationally.

maybe you need to go into the consulting business.
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July 18, 2014, 08:46:19 PM
 #9673

this kinda reminds of the proliferation of mining nodes worldwide:

Growth for Bitcoin ATMs

http://www.coindesk.com/7-charts-show-year-growth-bitcoin-atms/

bitrider
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July 18, 2014, 10:18:49 PM
 #9674

At this point, most of my friends are neutral or positive about Bitcoin... EXCEPT the academic economists. I think the fact that Bitcoin was not invented within the sphere of academic economics really bothers them (not that they would ever put it that way...)

Mark Twain nailed this one: "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so."

Hayek phrased the problem more more succinctly as "the pretense of knowledge."

It's also the same reason people often lose their car keys: they know for sure they already looked somewhere that they actually haven't yet.

Money experts will be the last to come on board, because they think they already know what money is.

+1

+2
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July 18, 2014, 10:22:29 PM
 #9675

Bitcoin and the history of money:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP0jCjyrew8

Well-done in my mind since it does away with 2 widespread myths:

  • money emerged to replace barter transactions (wrong, it emerged to track debt)

This is the second time in a few days that I read this. Could you point to studies on the matter? I like that not even Austrians seem to be aware of this.
molecular
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July 18, 2014, 10:39:42 PM
 #9676

Bitcoin and the history of money:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP0jCjyrew8

Well-done in my mind since it does away with 2 widespread myths:

  • money emerged to replace barter transactions (wrong, it emerged to track debt)

This is the second time in a few days that I read this. Could you point to studies on the matter? I like that not even Austrians seem to be aware of this.

Can't point to any study, but I read it on two occasions. One was when reading the german translation of Debt: The First 5,000 Years

Graeber explains the issue quite convincingly, citing many examples (very strange ones among them). I used to believe the barter-story, but after reading (parts of, I haven't finished it) that book, I'm now convinced money really came about as a means to track debt in groups of increasing size and/or accross groups.

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July 18, 2014, 11:00:21 PM
 #9677

Almost certainly the gift economy of small familial based tribes preceded barter and still is in widespread existence today, e.g. your father gives you some tomatoes he grew himself and you want to repay that by helping him with a ride to the airport, but is that really a debt as there is no expectation of repayment? ... whether money originated as a mechanism to track "debts" is a big stretch from familial gift economy.

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July 19, 2014, 02:19:47 AM
 #9678

maybe you need to go into the consulting business.
Too much work.

I'll just wait for them to finalize their framework and then publish methods for breaking it.
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July 19, 2014, 03:35:50 AM
 #9679

Almost certainly the gift economy of small familial based tribes preceded barter and still is in widespread existence today, e.g. your father gives you some tomatoes he grew himself and you want to repay that by helping him with a ride to the airport, but is that really a debt as there is no expectation of repayment? ... whether money originated as a mechanism to track "debts" is a big stretch from familial gift economy.

It just happens to be what the empirical evidence suggests. Barter and then money evolved where there were relationships of low trust, your community was typically a high trust relationship so no need for money or barter.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
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July 19, 2014, 03:44:03 AM
 #9680

This is the second time in a few days that I read this. Could you point to studies on the matter? I like that not even Austrians seem to be aware of this.

It's going to have to be forced down there throats, it shakes Mises's regression theorem at the core. At first I couldn't accept it but the earlier linked video sugar coats it and makes it taste nice.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
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