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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1806355 times)
tvbcof
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July 12, 2014, 07:02:50 PM
 #9441

This is big news for those who are worried They might turn off the Internet to block bitcoin tx's:

http://m.slashdot.org/submission/3694105


Good find.  Now you might start to understand why I've been super paranoid about block size (aka, transaction rate) for three years now since I've been around.  Also why I am so enthusiastic about 'sidechains'.

Since I've not pointed it out in a while, I'll again note that even in the most hostile environments where there is anything like the Internet we know today (even if it is just acoustic modems) it will be possible to perform a transaction (though it could be dangerous and tricky.)  This is because it is a tiny bit of data which can slip through a very tiny crack.  Actually operating an infrastructure which can see a bunch of other people's transactions and process them is a different matter.  The attack surface of someone attempting that is much greater.  At a rate of 1MB/block (and a block frequency of ~1block/10min) the Bitcoin system itself could probably exist on an auxiliary and defensible networks.  Currently as one of the non-Snowden whistle blowers (Binney?) says "The NSA owns the network."


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July 12, 2014, 08:28:32 PM
 #9442

Oversight yes in a lot of cases however since unregulated markets often lead to collusion, price fixing, fraud, and other sorts of mischief.


Oversight from whom? Who watches the watchers?

I think what tvbcof is pointing out is that in a totally unregulated world, humans tend to murder, rape, pillage, steal, cheat and much more. Because there are around one billion too many people on the planet, some level of regulation is required in most aspects of life.

So your plan is to intrude into the markets, and kill a billion? I am sure there is a club for you.

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July 12, 2014, 09:08:21 PM
 #9443

This is big news for those who are worried They might turn off the Internet to block bitcoin tx's:

http://m.slashdot.org/submission/3694105


Good find.  Now you might start to understand why I've been super paranoid about block size (aka, transaction rate) for three years now since I've been around.  Also why I am so enthusiastic about 'sidechains'.

Since I've not pointed it out in a while, I'll again note that even in the most hostile environments where there is anything like the Internet we know today (even if it is just acoustic modems) it will be possible to perform a transaction (though it could be dangerous and tricky.)  This is because it is a tiny bit of data which can slip through a very tiny crack.  Actually operating an infrastructure which can see a bunch of other people's transactions and process them is a different matter.  The attack surface of someone attempting that is much greater.  At a rate of 1MB/block (and a block frequency of ~1block/10min) the Bitcoin system itself could probably exist on an auxiliary and defensible networks.  Currently as one of the non-Snowden whistle blowers (Binney?) says "The NSA owns the network."



i don't think Sidechains is your answer especially if you don't want a for-profit company modifying the core protocol to enable the means for it's own success. 

it's possible that you could get your wish re: block size @ 1MB.  imo, if Gavin really wants to increase block size, he should be doing it now while the stakes aren't so great.  in a few years if the #tx's increases as we expect it to, so will market cap via a price increase as well.  if he's hesitant now, he'll be petrified then to make such a change.  while they have been making some incremental improvements, there is the possibility that the protocol is ossifying down to the point that the only changes to be made will be reactive in the face of an attack or a hard fork.  given neither of those come, 1MB/block may be as big as we ever see and in that case it may be consistent with Bitcoin having a shot at the world's reserve currency status.

i do hope that mesh networks, bitsats, bitcoincards, Kryptoradio, and this new Finnish project become mainstream as they would harden Bitcoin and make an attack all but impossible.  and if it requires that blocks stay small so be it.

i also doubt that the NSA owns the internet anymore than Google owns it.  yes, they certainly have the means and force to surveil it, as we've seen, but we are seeing pushback.  once again, i think the big picture depends on how you see the world as a glass half full or half empty.  i think you're more of the latter.
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July 12, 2014, 09:13:54 PM
 #9444


There's an enormous difference between a de-regulated world and a lawless world.  Removing regulation doesn't mean that people can defraud and murder with impunity.  Quite the contrary I would say.  In a de-regulated world, one must build a solid reputation to earn trust.  And so reputation becomes more valuable and thus more protected than in a world where the state attempts to remove all risk.
The state attempts (and in many cases succeeds) to remove risk because failures at building a solid reputation, that is, negligence, result in people dying, a consequence that no law can amend. That there is no impunity is little compensation to the sufferers.

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July 12, 2014, 09:33:21 PM
 #9445

This is big news for those who are worried They might turn off the Internet to block bitcoin tx's:

http://m.slashdot.org/submission/3694105


Yes as well as other satellite or cellular means to transmit data.


███████████████████████████████████████

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. ★☆ WWW.LEALANA.COM        My PGP fingerprint is A764D833.        SMOOTHIE'S HEALTH AND FITNESS JOURNAL          History of Monero development Visualization ★☆ .
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tvbcof
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July 12, 2014, 10:19:21 PM
 #9446


There's an enormous difference between a de-regulated world and a lawless world.  Removing regulation doesn't mean that people can defraud and murder with impunity.  Quite the contrary I would say.  In a de-regulated world, one must build a solid reputation to earn trust.  And so reputation becomes more valuable and thus more protected than in a world where the state attempts to remove all risk.
The state attempts (and in many cases succeeds) to remove risk because failures at building a solid reputation, that is, negligence, result in people dying, a consequence that no law can amend. That there is no impunity is little compensation to the sufferers.

Bitcoin has proven an awesome case study in the 'de-regulated' world.  I cannot count the number of times some entity 'built a solid reputation' for just long enough to take their cash-out at an opportune time.  Over and over again we saw (and probably will continue to see) exchanges and wallet services fold and take everyone's money.  Usually the give back a pittance to preserve some plausible deniability.  The ratio of people who have been chumped out of their BTC vs the number of people who ever held any is truly impressive.  Were such a ratio observed in the real world where the stakes are higher it would be an unmitigated disaster.

In my analysis I would say that many Libertarians (at least in Bitcoinland, but elsewhere as well) have animosity toward regulation and enforcement mainly because in their world they defrauded (or would like to defraud) people fair and square, and the evil state sometimes holds them to account.  How unjust!

Again, in the real world, we see time and time again that when someone says 'de-regulation' it's time to put your hand on your wallet because your pocket is about to be picked.  It's even worse than that though because most of those who claim to want de-regulation actually want anything but.  They are perfectly happy to use state powers to quash and harass competition and apply muscle to the population they are shaking down.  In an environment such as this I am a 'small government' type of guy, and such a thing is becoming more and more or a problem here in the U.S.


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July 12, 2014, 10:41:24 PM
 #9447

...  Currently as one of the non-Snowden whistle blowers (Binney?) says "The NSA owns the network."
...
i also doubt that the NSA owns the internet anymore than Google owns it.  yes, they certainly have the means and force to surveil it, as we've seen, but we are seeing pushback.  once again, i think the big picture depends on how you see the world as a glass half full or half empty.  i think you're more of the latter.

What the guy meant is that 'the NSA' (probably including the 5-eyes and networks they've infiltrated) have visibility into a large majority of the global internet.  I've suspected this for some time and it's one of the reason why I have limited confidence in TOR.

It is true that 'visibility' is not exactly the same thing as 'control', but it is also true that with a lot of network gear it is quite trivial to activate filtering at the flip of a switch.  How practical that would be in practice is hard to know without a lot more information.  Comcast was doing interesting things to P2P packets a decade ago on what was at the time a pretty high traffic network.  Concepts of 'network neutrality' (and probably hardware availability and economics) interfered with their procedures, but Obama has just tossed network neutrality out the window.

We've been prepped for some time for a 'cyber 9/11'.  Such prep work usually ends up in an actual event in my observation.  If/when this happens, I expect that we'll see some significant changes to how the global internet functions and it could easily have some fallout on how the Bitcoin network functions.  I do hope that we are at least not completely blindsided and a tiny bit prepared to deal with such a scenario should it occur.

In terms of 'ownership', I would say that for all intents and purposes the NSA 'owns' Google and other corporate networks that operate in the U.S. when push comes to shove.  I'll bet that a good deal of the 'pushback' is nothing more than PR posturing.  I also don't doubt that there is genuine resentment and distaste at the state's methods, and that that sentiment is held from the bottom to the top, but at the end of the day the core responsibility of a corporation is to maximize shareholder profits and having your network shut down and your door kicked in will not achieve that effect.

BTW, it's nice to not be having a complete troll-fest conversation for a change Wink


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July 12, 2014, 10:50:18 PM
 #9448


There's an enormous difference between a de-regulated world and a lawless world.  Removing regulation doesn't mean that people can defraud and murder with impunity.  Quite the contrary I would say.  In a de-regulated world, one must build a solid reputation to earn trust.  And so reputation becomes more valuable and thus more protected than in a world where the state attempts to remove all risk.
The state attempts (and in many cases succeeds) to remove risk because failures at building a solid reputation, that is, negligence, result in people dying, a consequence that no law can amend. That there is no impunity is little compensation to the sufferers.

Bitcoin has proven an awesome case study in the 'de-regulated' world.  I cannot count the number of times some entity 'built a solid reputation' for just long enough to take their cash-out at an opportune time.  Over and over again we saw (and probably will continue to see) exchanges and wallet services fold and take everyone's money.  Usually the give back a pittance to preserve some plausible deniability.  The ratio of people who have been chumped out of their BTC vs the number of people who ever held any is truly impressive.  Were such a ratio observed in the real world where the stakes are higher it would be an unmitigated disaster.

In my analysis I would say that many Libertarians (at least in Bitcoinland, but elsewhere as well) have animosity toward regulation and enforcement mainly because in their world they defrauded (or would like to defraud) people fair and square, and the evil state sometimes holds them to account.  How unjust!

Again, in the real world, we see time and time again that when someone says 'de-regulation' it's time to put your hand on your wallet because your pocket is about to be picked.  It's even worse than that though because most of those who claim to want de-regulation actually want anything but.  They are perfectly happy to use state powers to quash and harass competition and apply muscle to the population they are shaking down.  In an environment such as this I am a 'small government' type of guy, and such a thing is becoming more and more or a problem here in the U.S.



I like to break things down into simple, first principles. In affairs of human relations the primary question I always ask is this: "is this relationship one of mutual voluntary assent or is someone being coerced?" I find this an excellent filter which usually identifies the State as the most common aggressor.

I found the following essay to be very interesting in that regard:

 A Way To Be Free - by Robert LeFevre
http://centerforselfrule.org/a-way-to-be-free/


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July 12, 2014, 11:43:59 PM
 #9449

Hey tv,

One of the State's finest (her ex) is setting up a Bitcoin fund! What a hoot!

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-12/wtf-headline-day-blythe-masters-ex-husband-launches-offshored-bitcoin-hedge-fund
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July 13, 2014, 12:43:09 AM
 #9450

What is the relevance of the woman?
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July 13, 2014, 12:48:43 AM
 #9451

What is the relevance of the woman?


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blythe_Masters
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July 13, 2014, 12:57:30 AM
 #9452


Ok, but it is her husband's ETF, not?
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July 13, 2014, 01:03:14 AM
 #9453

Here's an interesting quote from Mr. Masters:

“Despite all the advances in technology we’ve seen over the last couple decades, we basically have had no change to the way we bank or do transactions. It’s the same thing, only they’ve put it online. If I want to wire money from London to Beijing, I still get charged an outrageous amount of money for it, and it takes days. Meanwhile, where the f*** is my money?”


Source: http://www.newsweek.com/ex-jp-morgan-trader-joins-bitcoin-bulls-launching-hedge-funds-258494

Apparently bankers hate banks too! LOL

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July 13, 2014, 02:00:17 AM
 #9454

Can you believe this idiocy coming from Realcoins and possibly Brock himself?

@NickSzabo4 @cypherdoc2 @roasbeef Actually, we think #stability is more important than security. Check out our dollar-backed blockchain!


https://twitter.com/RealCoins/status/488120162781237248
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July 13, 2014, 02:09:06 AM
 #9455

Can you believe this idiocy coming from Realcoins and possibly Brock himself?

@NickSzabo4 @cypherdoc2 @roasbeef Actually, we think #stability is more important than security. Check out our dollar-backed blockchain!


https://twitter.com/RealCoins/status/488120162781237248
PAAAAAHAHA

such a goon.

no problem atall if our coins get stolen or blockchain falls apart, as long as it stays stable when it happens. l

like i always say, id rather someone steal my coins than have unstable ones.

"Pioneering a revolutionary novel consensus mechanism called proof of importance."
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July 13, 2014, 02:30:00 AM
 #9456

Can you believe this idiocy coming from Realcoins and possibly Brock himself?

@NickSzabo4 @cypherdoc2 @roasbeef Actually, we think #stability is more important than security. Check out our dollar-backed blockchain!


https://twitter.com/RealCoins/status/488120162781237248
PAAAAAHAHA

such a goon.

no problem atall if our coins get stolen or blockchain falls apart, as long as it stays stable when it happens. l

like i always say, id rather someone steal my coins than have unstable ones.

Actually stability is not a prerequisite but a consequence of worldwide adoption [which will only materialize with security of course]

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July 13, 2014, 02:33:36 AM
 #9457

Can you believe this idiocy coming from Realcoins and possibly Brock himself?

@NickSzabo4 @cypherdoc2 @roasbeef Actually, we think #stability is more important than security. Check out our dollar-backed blockchain!


https://twitter.com/RealCoins/status/488120162781237248
PAAAAAHAHA

such a goon.

no problem atall if our coins get stolen or blockchain falls apart, as long as it stays stable when it happens. l

like i always say, id rather someone steal my coins than have unstable ones.

Actually stability is not a prerequisite but a consequence of worldwide adoption [which will only materialize with security of course]

edit: forgot to put /sarc. Wink

 agree with you though.

i was calling peirce a goon. not the cypherdoc. Smiley

"Pioneering a revolutionary novel consensus mechanism called proof of importance."
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July 13, 2014, 02:40:48 AM
 #9458

Can you believe this idiocy coming from Realcoins and possibly Brock himself?

@NickSzabo4 @cypherdoc2 @roasbeef Actually, we think #stability is more important than security. Check out our dollar-backed blockchain!


https://twitter.com/RealCoins/status/488120162781237248
PAAAAAHAHA

such a goon.

no problem atall if our coins get stolen or blockchain falls apart, as long as it stays stable when it happens. l

like i always say, id rather someone steal my coins than have unstable ones.

Actually stability is not a prerequisite but a consequence of worldwide adoption [which will only materialize with security of course]

edit: forgot to put /sarc. Wink

 agree with you though.

i was calling peirce a goon. not the cypherdoc. Smiley

I got that and made a statement on the same side as you. Mabye I could have made that more clear Smiley

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July 13, 2014, 02:43:40 AM
 #9459

Can you believe this idiocy coming from Realcoins and possibly Brock himself?

@NickSzabo4 @cypherdoc2 @roasbeef Actually, we think #stability is more important than security. Check out our dollar-backed blockchain!


https://twitter.com/RealCoins/status/488120162781237248
PAAAAAHAHA

such a goon.

no problem atall if our coins get stolen or blockchain falls apart, as long as it stays stable when it happens. l

like i always say, id rather someone steal my coins than have unstable ones.

Actually stability is not a prerequisite but a consequence of worldwide adoption [which will only materialize with security of course]

edit: forgot to put /sarc. Wink

 agree with you though.

i was calling peirce a goon. not the cypherdoc. Smiley

I got that and made a statement on the same side as you. Mabye I could have made that more clear Smiley


ok lol i had trouble believing some one would think i was serious Cheesy

"Pioneering a revolutionary novel consensus mechanism called proof of importance."
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July 13, 2014, 02:50:28 AM
 #9460

If I had to put a pulse on where the Bitcoin market and ecosystem is in comparison to the Internet...I'd say we are in 1995.

███████████████████████████████████████

            ,╓p@@███████@╗╖,           
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███████████████████████████████████████

. ★☆ WWW.LEALANA.COM        My PGP fingerprint is A764D833.        SMOOTHIE'S HEALTH AND FITNESS JOURNAL          History of Monero development Visualization ★☆ .
LEALANA  PHYSICAL MONERO COINS 999 FINE SILVER.
 
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