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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2022643 times)
_mr_e
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November 14, 2014, 05:34:25 PM
 #16781

btw, since everyone around here seems to not mind for-profits changing the source code to their own advantage, why don't we increase OP_return back up to 80 bytes, from 40 bytes, so that Counterparty can fit back in their tx proofs for their share issuance that they were so badly depending on, so as to further their profit model? Roll Eyes

I honestly don't know if sc is the right way to go or not. But I do know that the network runs on consensus. If it agrees to allow sc while denying the 80 bytes, then that is what the consensus has decided. It isn't something that can be argued or reasoned with.
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November 14, 2014, 05:37:48 PM
 #16782

by breaking the link back to the MC, you've broken Bitcoin's Sound Money principles.  these scBTC you're talking about will exist on inherently less secure SC entities whose ledger integrity will not be guaranteed as they will not be mined by independent, distributed, third party mining auditors.  these SC entities will allow conversion of scBTC to all manner of speculative assets like shares, bonds, contracts, derivatives of all types which will be traded on exchanges.  their value will fluctuate wildly and there will be winners and losers. mostly losers, i would guess.  but those assets will not be the Bitcoin Money as we know it.  they will be transformed.

this transformation must be taken all the way back to its root cause; the SPV proof.

mostly all of your arguments are shown to be irrelevant if we consider that sidechains can be implemented today without the SPV proof.

bitcoins being converted to represent assets is not a new proposition and something that will exist sidechain or not.

that would be true.

i don't have any problem with SC's being implemented thru federated servers as they don't involve changing source code.  but as soon as you do change source, as with SPVproofs, all sorts of unpredictable things start happening as i've outlined.

currently, when BTC gets "exchanged" for assets, those BTC just change hands and still exist on the MC and remain secure and can continue to circulate.  SC's introduce another dynamic completely.  BTC's get siphoned off MC to speculative SC's created by Blockstream for insecure, potentially dishonest entities.  it's conceivable these entities will be gvts as Austin has said.  in this case, BTC's essentially get converted into whatever asset the SC is offering.  this destroys Bitoin's Sound Money principles.  the key to this dynamic is the SPV proof.
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November 14, 2014, 05:42:30 PM
 #16783

btw, since everyone around here seems to not mind for-profits changing the source code to their own advantage, why don't we increase OP_return back up to 80 bytes, from 40 bytes, so that Counterparty can fit back in their tx proofs for their share issuance that they were so badly depending on, so as to further their profit model? Roll Eyes

I honestly don't know if sc is the right way to go or not. But I do know that the network runs on consensus. If it agrees to allow sc while denying the 80 bytes, then that is what the consensus has decided. It isn't something that can be argued or reasoned with.

the question then becomes, the consensus of who?

those who participate in this thread or those who participate in the dev email lists and IRC channels?  or the consensus of the community at large?
brg444
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November 14, 2014, 05:45:44 PM
 #16784

SC's only work in theory if they can be confined to "utility" chains as brg444 has defined them, ie, SC's w/o an altcoin that just processes tx's with enhanced features like fast tx or anon.  but since these utility chains won't make money for their devs, and IF no other speculative SC's will be formed, then you don't need a Blockstream for profit would you? 

Absolutely not true. Plenty of corporate sidechains can be created that are not speculative and create a semi-controlled environment defined by the clients' use that uses the BTC currency as its fuel.

i'm perfectly aware of that.  but centralized entities encourage usage of the SPVproof, as brg444 and the whitepaper have already suggested, as they are more secure (MM) and they are decentralized.  we've already seen this incentive live with the Truthcoin example.

What is this obsession you have with Truthcoin? They are an obvious scam that will never get any traction.

think about it.  it's only realistic that utility chains can be MM'd.  that's b/c the data requirement and work involved would be too much to MM ALL SC's in existence which will be in the thousand/billions.  therefore, MM will be confined to perhaps 2 utility chains that make Bitcoin better as money, fast tx and anon debatedly.

all other speculative SC ledgers will be maintained by their owners.   owners who have paid Blockstream good money (USD's) to construct their SC. they will be less secure as they won't be mined by third party independent mining auditors ala Bitcoin miners.  the only way for these types of SC entities survive is by attracting BTC to their scBTC.  the more the better.  the more retention the better.  this take tx fees away from Bitcoin miners which is bad.  the Blockstream biz model depends on this siphoning of BTC -->scBTC for the survival of their clients.  otherwise they don't make money.

 Cheesy thousand/billions of sidechains, yea right. this makes no sense and is an obvious stretch of reality.

as much as you'd like it to be different. speculation is a niche. preservation of value is in the majority's interest.

for this reason, it is straight up disingenuous to suggest that speculative schemes will siphon most of the value out of BTC.  


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 14, 2014, 05:49:34 PM
 #16785

who will mine these decentralized SC's?  seriously.  Bitcoin miners are only incentivized to mine for BTC as money.  we've already agreed they will only mine those utility chains that enhance that function of money, not speculative SC's who take advantage of the SPV proof to advertise themselves as "decentralized or more secure". 

Exactly right, which is why most "speculative" SC's will be irrelevant unless they can demonstrate a sound business model that is not speculative just for the sake of it.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
cypherdoc
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November 14, 2014, 05:51:10 PM
 #16786

SC's only work in theory if they can be confined to "utility" chains as brg444 has defined them, ie, SC's w/o an altcoin that just processes tx's with enhanced features like fast tx or anon.  but since these utility chains won't make money for their devs, and IF no other speculative SC's will be formed, then you don't need a Blockstream for profit would you? 

Absolutely not true. Plenty of corporate sidechains can be created that are not speculative and create a semi-controlled environment defined by the clients' use that uses the BTC currency as its fuel.

absolutely they can.  but that doesn't change the siphoning dynamic and destruction of Bitcoin as Sound Money argument i've made.  yeah, the NASDAQ will allow you to convert your BTC to penny stock shares if they want via SC's.  legitimate business, right?
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i'm perfectly aware of that.  but centralized entities encourage usage of the SPVproof, as brg444 and the whitepaper have already suggested, as they are more secure (MM) and they are decentralized.  we've already seen this incentive live with the Truthcoin example.

What is this obsession you have with Truthcoin? They are an obvious scam that will never get any traction.

so you say, but they already have their first customer:  keystroke.  and they will get more.
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think about it.  it's only realistic that utility chains can be MM'd.  that's b/c the data requirement and work involved would be too much to MM ALL SC's in existence which will be in the thousand/billions.  therefore, MM will be confined to perhaps 2 utility chains that make Bitcoin better as money, fast tx and anon debatedly.

all other speculative SC ledgers will be maintained by their owners.   owners who have paid Blockstream good money (USD's) to construct their SC. they will be less secure as they won't be mined by third party independent mining auditors ala Bitcoin miners.  the only way for these types of SC entities survive is by attracting BTC to their scBTC.  the more the better.  the more retention the better.  this take tx fees away from Bitcoin miners which is bad.  the Blockstream biz model depends on this siphoning of BTC -->scBTC for the survival of their clients.  otherwise they don't make money.

 Cheesy thousand/billions of sidechains, yea right. this makes no sense and is an obvious stretch of reality.

as much as you'd like it to be different. speculation is a niche. preservation of value is in the majority's interest.

for this reason, it is straight up disingenuous to suggest that speculative schemes will siphon most of the value out of BTC.  



oh brother, here come the diversions.  Roll Eyes

it's in Blockstream's interest to make sure there are thousands if not billions.  cuz for every one of them, they make money (USD's).
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November 14, 2014, 05:52:36 PM
 #16787

who will mine these decentralized SC's?  seriously.  Bitcoin miners are only incentivized to mine for BTC as money.  we've already agreed they will only mine those utility chains that enhance that function of money, not speculative SC's who take advantage of the SPV proof to advertise themselves as "decentralized or more secure". 

Exactly right, which is why most "speculative" SC's will be irrelevant unless they can demonstrate a sound business model that is not speculative just for the sake of it.


i agree, they don't have to be speculative to siphon BTC away from its blockchain (MC).  but they still break Bitcoins Sound Money principle.
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November 14, 2014, 05:53:17 PM
 #16788

the question is, create value for who?  and at what cost? 

if the "stated" intentions of Blockstream is to create value for Bitcoin and not Blockstream, then they should restructure as a non-profit.  or create SC's as a public service.  b/c that's the other important point here:  imo, Bitcoin has evolved to a point where it has become a public good.  it is a form of Sound Money that cannot, in the slightest, be perceived to have any improprieties or self interested groups in control.  that is, if we want nations and ppl of all strata to buy in.   Blockstream for profit violates this.

Well you see this shows your clear lack of understanding about the proposition.

SC's are absolutely a public service. Blockstream do not have the monopoly of creating sidechains. Sidechains are lines of codes which, if implemented, creates an additional open source layer on top of which anyone can build anything.


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 14, 2014, 05:55:54 PM
 #16789

we don't know.  but we do know that it will have to be Blockstreams mandate to make it so.  otherwise, they don't make money constructing SC's.

 Roll Eyes

This is not true at all.

As if Blockstream is guaranteeing to clients the success and adoption of their chains.... This is nonsense. Their service is to create decentralized infrastructure for whoever is willing to pay them. It is up to that client to generate enough interest and utility in their sidechain that users will be attracted to it.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 14, 2014, 06:00:18 PM
 #16790

the question is, create value for who?  and at what cost? 

if the "stated" intentions of Blockstream is to create value for Bitcoin and not Blockstream, then they should restructure as a non-profit.  or create SC's as a public service.  b/c that's the other important point here:  imo, Bitcoin has evolved to a point where it has become a public good.  it is a form of Sound Money that cannot, in the slightest, be perceived to have any improprieties or self interested groups in control.  that is, if we want nations and ppl of all strata to buy in.   Blockstream for profit violates this.

Well you see this shows your clear lack of understanding about the proposition.

SC's are absolutely a public service. Blockstream do not have the monopoly of creating sidechains. Sidechains are lines of codes which, if implemented, creates an additional open source layer on top of which anyone can build anything.



oh brother.  never mind the fact that by Blockstream changing the source code, all other competing entities like CP, Bitshares, Ethereum, and all altcoins get put at a competitive disadvantage.  which is one of the stated objectives to begin with if you are paying attention. 

you and several others have already stated in the course of arguments that Blockstream is a way for devs to get paid.  and you said they would deserve to make millions off Blockstream as it would somehow bring along value to Bitcoin itself.  i don't see it.  it's a conflicted model with a false core assumption:  that being that BTC units can be separated from its blockchain (MC) and still preserve the Sound Money function.
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November 14, 2014, 06:01:53 PM
 #16791

btw, since everyone around here seems to not mind for-profits changing the source code to their own advantage, why don't we increase OP_return back up to 80 bytes, from 40 bytes, so that Counterparty can fit back in their tx proofs for their share issuance that they were so badly depending on, so as to further their profit model? Roll Eyes

Stop saying this. This is pure FUD.

Sidechains is a creation for the greater good of the ecosystem. Blockstream do not own sidechains.

They are simply a group of competent enough developers that have the skills to build on top of it.

Did you ever think that Blockstream could have competitors? Who's to say another group of developers might not want to replicate their business model? What's to stop them?

Again, it is likely that SPVproof or not we are going to see sidechains pop up in the future that use the federated model.

What are you going to do to stop them? It seems to me they would also "break BTC sound money principle" as you say. Why are you not objecting over them?




"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
_mr_e
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November 14, 2014, 06:02:44 PM
 #16792

btw, since everyone around here seems to not mind for-profits changing the source code to their own advantage, why don't we increase OP_return back up to 80 bytes, from 40 bytes, so that Counterparty can fit back in their tx proofs for their share issuance that they were so badly depending on, so as to further their profit model? Roll Eyes

I honestly don't know if sc is the right way to go or not. But I do know that the network runs on consensus. If it agrees to allow sc while denying the 80 bytes, then that is what the consensus has decided. It isn't something that can be argued or reasoned with.

the question then becomes, the consensus of who?

those who participate in this thread or those who participate in the dev email lists and IRC channels?  or the consensus of the community at large?

The people running the nodes, the miners, and the companies that are deciding to use a particular fork.
cypherdoc
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November 14, 2014, 06:02:48 PM
 #16793

we don't know.  but we do know that it will have to be Blockstreams mandate to make it so.  otherwise, they don't make money constructing SC's.

 Roll Eyes

This is not true at all.

As if Blockstream is guaranteeing to clients the success and adoption of their chains.... This is nonsense. Their service is to create decentralized infrastructure for whoever is willing to pay them. It is up to that client to generate enough interest and utility in their sidechain that users will be attracted to it.

you have to be a Blockstream plant.  absolutely no other way to explain your behavior.  whatever...

we as a community should not even let the situation get that far by letting them alter the rules of Bitcoin by changing the protocol in such a disingenuous, conflicted way.  let Blockstream compete head to head with all the other for profit companies trying to make money off Bitcoin who don't rely on a source code change.
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November 14, 2014, 06:03:57 PM
 #16794

btw, since everyone around here seems to not mind for-profits changing the source code to their own advantage, why don't we increase OP_return back up to 80 bytes, from 40 bytes, so that Counterparty can fit back in their tx proofs for their share issuance that they were so badly depending on, so as to further their profit model? Roll Eyes

I honestly don't know if sc is the right way to go or not. But I do know that the network runs on consensus. If it agrees to allow sc while denying the 80 bytes, then that is what the consensus has decided. It isn't something that can be argued or reasoned with.

the question then becomes, the consensus of who?

those who participate in this thread or those who participate in the dev email lists and IRC channels?  or the consensus of the community at large?

The people running the nodes, the miners, and the companies that are deciding to use a particular fork.

the consenus includes EVERYONE participating in Bitcoin today. 
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November 14, 2014, 06:07:41 PM
 #16795


Sidechains is a creation for the greater good of the ecosystem. Blockstream do not own sidechains.

They are simply a group of competent enough developers that have the skills to build on top of it.



Blockstream is way more than this.  they include 40% of core devs in addition to 3 of the top committers.  they are in a position to influence all future decisions regarding upgrades to Bitcoin, and that includes blocking competition that could make SC's obsolete.

their incentive being to sell as many SC's to any willing buyer.  that is what a for-profit does.
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November 14, 2014, 06:14:50 PM
 #16796

that would be true.

i don't have any problem with SC's being implemented thru federated servers as they don't involve changing source code.  but as soon as you do change source, as with SPVproofs, all sorts of unpredictable things start happening as i've outlined.

currently, when BTC gets "exchanged" for assets, those BTC just change hands and still exist on the MC and remain secure and can continue to circulate.  SC's introduce another dynamic completely.  BTC's get siphoned off MC to speculative SC's created by Blockstream for insecure, potentially dishonest entities.  it's conceivable these entities will be gvts as Austin has said.  in this case, BTC's essentially get converted into whatever asset the SC is offering.  this destroys Bitoin's Sound Money principles.  the key to this dynamic is the SPV proof.

 Roll Eyes

the basis of my argument is that the BTC unit cannot be separated from its blockchain (mainchain) w/o breaking Bitcoin as Money. imo, sidechains allow this and if you read their whitepaper, their core assumption is that they they can be separated.

So which is it? Sidechains are bad or not? Because in reality, changing the source code has no impact on their existence. Implementing SPV proof through a change in the source code is merely an improved feature that allows for more decentralization of the sidechains.

SPVproof does not enable "unpredictable things" to happen. All of these things are possible through the federated model.  

scBTC that represent assets are also merely changing hands and can still return to the MC. I expect that a sidechain for decentralized asset exchange (stock market for example) to be effectively as secure as the BTC mainchain because they are in effect, a utility chain that will generate a considerable amount of transaction from which miners can pull revenue.

I'm truly sick of your malicious portrayal of the Blockstream developers.

in this case, BTC's essentially get converted into whatever asset the SC is offering.  this destroys Bitoin's Sound Money principles.  the key to this dynamic is the SPV proof.

That's simply not true. Again, The SPV proof is a feature of sidechains. Sidechains can exist without it. And so Gvts can create sidechains using the federated model RIGHT NOW.

Considering this, I suggest you sell all of your bitcoins as soon as possible because from you logic we can deduct that Bitcoin is broken because it natively enables sidechains which, by you own statement, "destroys" Bitcoin's Sound Money principles.


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 14, 2014, 06:14:57 PM
 #16797

good news for goldbugs!  looks who's backing their new currency with gold?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-11-13/isis-unveils-its-new-gold-backed-currency-remove-itself-oppressors-money-system

but i thought Bitcoin was their preferred currency?

Edit:
<snip>
Post retracted until the sidechains stuff dies down a little. Will repost in 50 pages or so. Wink

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
Cryptoasset rankings and metrics for investors: http://onchainfx.com
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November 14, 2014, 06:18:22 PM
 #16798

oh brother.  never mind the fact that by Blockstream changing the source code, all other competing entities like CP, Bitshares, Ethereum, and all altcoins get put at a competitive disadvantage.  which is one of the stated objectives to begin with if you are paying attention. 

you and several others have already stated in the course of arguments that Blockstream is a way for devs to get paid.  and you said they would deserve to make millions off Blockstream as it would somehow bring along value to Bitcoin itself.  i don't see it.  it's a conflicted model with a false core assumption:  that being that BTC units can be separated from its blockchain (MC) and still preserve the Sound Money function.

All the competing entities previously using a different scheme can turn to sidechains and offer the same services that Blockstream do. What's to stop Vitalik and the gang from creating Blockstream2?

If it shows to be the more promising technology/implementation, why would they not use their employable skills to build on top of it?

As for your last comment :

Considering this, I suggest you sell all of your bitcoins as soon as possible because from you logic we can deduct that Bitcoin is broken because it natively enables sidechains which, by you own statement, "destroys" Bitcoin's Sound Money principles.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 14, 2014, 06:22:04 PM
 #16799


you have to be a Blockstream plant.  absolutely no other way to explain your behavior.  whatever...

we as a community should not even let the situation get that far by letting them alter the rules of Bitcoin by changing the protocol in such a disingenuous, conflicted way.  let Blockstream compete head to head with all the other for profit companies trying to make money off Bitcoin who don't rely on a source code change.

You are the only evidently dinsingenuous person in this whole debate.

What you fail to realise is that if somehow you stop Blockstream from implementing the SPVproof in the source code than they are simply going to adapt their model to the federated model. 

You blind grudge against Blockstream disables you from understanding that their proposition is for the greater good of the community. Their conclusion is that sidechains are possible NOW but are potentially much more secure and efficient through the implementation of the SPV proof.


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 14, 2014, 06:24:02 PM
 #16800

that would be true.

i don't have any problem with SC's being implemented thru federated servers as they don't involve changing source code.  but as soon as you do change source, as with SPVproofs, all sorts of unpredictable things start happening as i've outlined.

currently, when BTC gets "exchanged" for assets, those BTC just change hands and still exist on the MC and remain secure and can continue to circulate.  SC's introduce another dynamic completely.  BTC's get siphoned off MC to speculative SC's created by Blockstream for insecure, potentially dishonest entities.  it's conceivable these entities will be gvts as Austin has said.  in this case, BTC's essentially get converted into whatever asset the SC is offering.  this destroys Bitoin's Sound Money principles.  the key to this dynamic is the SPV proof.

 Roll Eyes

that's all you got to say on this?
Quote
the basis of my argument is that the BTC unit cannot be separated from its blockchain (mainchain) w/o breaking Bitcoin as Money. imo, sidechains allow this and if you read their whitepaper, their core assumption is that they they can be separated.

So which is it? Sidechains are bad or not? Because in reality, changing the source code has no impact on their existence. Implementing SPV proof through a change in the source code is merely an improved feature that allows for more decentralization of the sidechains.

SC's are bad if implemented thru the SPVproof.  how many times do i have to say this before you hear it?
Quote
SPVproof does not enable "unpredictable things" to happen. All of these things are possible through the federated model.  

they are not.  you yourself have said that SC's "need" to move from federated server model to a source code change b/c that will enable security and decentralization.  the differences are profound.
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scBTC that represent assets are also merely changing hands and can still return to the MC. I expect that a sidechain for decentralized asset exchange (stock market for example) to be effectively as secure as the BTC mainchain because they are in effect, a utility chain that will generate a considerable amount of transaction from which miners can pull revenue.

backpedaling again?  you said several times earlier that MM would only apply to utility chains that enhance Bitcoins Sound Money principles.  now, you're trying to imply that all these Blockstream enabled speculative SC's WILL be MM'd so as to give Blockstream an excuse to develop them for profit since they are somehow now secure.  so which is it?
Quote

I'm truly sick of your malicious portrayal of the Blockstream developers.

that's b/c you're probably a Blockstream plant. Wink
Quote
in this case, BTC's essentially get converted into whatever asset the SC is offering.  this destroys Bitoin's Sound Money principles.  the key to this dynamic is the SPV proof.

That's simply not true. Again, The SPV proof is a feature of sidechains. Sidechains can exist without it. And so Gvts can create sidechains using the federated model RIGHT NOW.

Considering this, I suggest you sell all of your bitcoins as soon as possible because from you logic we can deduct that Bitcoin is broken because it natively enables sidechains which, by you own statement, "destroys" Bitcoin's Sound Money principles.



wrong.  the SPVproof is critical to SC's.  if it doesn't get implemented, Blockstream as a for profit fails.
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