Bryan Micon's List of BTC Ponzi Schemes that should not be listed as "Lending"

[Micon]

we're in the Wild West days of open-source currency.  I expect people will get burned by scams, imitators, ponzi schemes and price bubbles..

I tend not to worry about things that are out of my control; I don't think there's a whole lot that can be done about scammers, imitators, and ponzi schemes besides warning people to be careful with their money (whether dollars, euros or bitcoins).

there are many people who hold an opinion on the matter but they aren't outspoken about it.  when each of these ponzi fund house of cards falls, some people will be hurt badly, others (those who have made most or all of their money back already) will barely be nicked and most will feel no impact at all as they were smart enough to keep a healthy distance.  you don't hear from them.  you probably won't, even if they were asked for their opinion.

this is definitely a circus but it is nowhere near to being significant in bitcoin's progression. just as few today remember or care much about the mtgox hack or mybitcoin fiasco, this too shall pass.

agree on macro level but still hold true to my original points in this thread:

1)  on the scale of "will BTC work" these ponzi's are minor.  Andresen's used similar words when describing the currency:  "wild, wild west" and in the poker parlance of our times "a no-limit currency"  A poster in this thread said something to the effect of "this will help weed out the stupid" - indeed, but at the extreme benefit of a scammer who will try and scam again after being so successful and easy this time.  

2) The next major headline about bitcoin will likely be about BCST & the derivatives (so shameful, but at the same time laughable - this scammer has a huge affiliate program for his scam).  Think about the scale of the previous BTC thefts and sites that scammed and ran away with the coins - I think mid 6 digits is our current record - and the BTC writers that  know their shit like Jon Matonis will write the story with a headline something like this "$1M+ USD bitcoin ponzi scheme collapses" and the first paragraph will be about a guy named "Pirateat40" with a fake entity called "Bitcoin Savings & Trust" posting that he pays 7% weekly interest and can do so because:


Q: What are my coins used for?
A: Coins are primarily used for large investment transactions but may also include the following:
Market Arbitrage
Private Loans To Network Members
Never Criminal/Illegal Related

Q: How do you make enough money to pay these rates?
A: If I told you then I couldn't do what I do.


and stupid internet nerds sent him $1M USD in BTC.  Pirateat40?  Bitcoin Savings & Trust? - now just making me laugh.  He is openly mocking any of you that in any way sent him money.  If you ran or do run a pass-through to make .1% for helping a scammer scam the entire community, you are shameful and I hate you.  If you didn't think you were doing a bad thing when you started and now understand that you are helping an evil scammer scam, please PM me and I can help guide you on how to best dismantle your operation and return max value to your investors.  The few that will listen to me will save their investors at least some of the principle.  If you are running a pass-through, know it's a scam and feel the need to blindly defend Pirate because your .1% per week is at stake then you are also shameful and I also hate you.

2)  these have infected and made laughable the bitcoin stock exchange.  GLBSE cannot possibly allow derivatives of scams to be listed as "bonds."  Again, making BTC in general appear foolish, childish, and with scams around every corner so watch out.

3) IMO, net effect extremely -EV (negative expected value as us stupid gamblers use to describe future equity) to allow these to continue as is and keep them labeled as Lending.  Do we know who the top moderators are on this forum?  who owns it?  This forum is extremely important to spreading BTC.  We must make sure it is in safe hands.

[Micon]

Whats the chance all the ponzis will collapse at once ?  

It's possible they'll collapse like dominoes and possibly even take down some legitimate funds with them. When one collapses, people might fear that others are going to collapse too and make a large number of simultaneous withdrawals, forcing others (whether Ponzi or legitimate) into an equity or liquidity crisis.

 BCST is so big and there are so many pass-throughs and derivatives of this gigantic scam when this one falls everything will go boom

I will be watching from the sidelines trying to warn all I can before it explodes.  And the explosion will be an awesome train wreck to watch.  I will be brutally "I told you so"-ing so you fucks listen to me the next time some scammer takes a $1M USD shot at this community.

[CoinCidental]

i read pirate has over 300k btc ,some think he has over 500K of them

If thats correct and he scams ,its going to be a lot bigger than 1 million $

at current prices

[hgmichna]

wait you think because Pirateat40 has a $1M+ USD ponzi scheme it's not bad for bitcoin because it's only ~ 1% of total BTC?  you should say it like this:

"HOLY SHIT HE HAS 1% OF ALL BTC "INVESTED" IN HIS SCAM!  Over $1M USD!  HE MUST BE STOPPED"

you don't care at all that a guy is scamming anyone stupid enough to send him BTC right here on these forums, and he has already acquired $1M USD+ ?  this seems alarming, extremely wrong, horrible for bitcoin, and something should be done about it.

We have the same opinion. I just have a few minor reservations.

• Bitcoin is in its early stage. It seems that the bitcoin community is bound to repeat all mistakes that happened in the history of all pre-existing financial markets.
• I do care, but I don't see what more we could do. Publishing clear and explicit explanations and warnings apparently has to suffice. But if you have any better idea, let's try it.

What I would like to do is find out who the perpetrator is and who his henchmen are. We know their forum nicknames, but that may not be good enough to bring them behind bars. I particularly dislike that they may get away with the money they stole. I could imagine though that those who lose the most money might track him down.

[dooglus]

Jon Matonis will write the story with a headline something like this "$1M+ USD bitcoin ponzi scheme collapses"

Last week, BS&T paid out 26,000 BTC in interest.

The top tier interest rate is 7%.  Some people get less.  If we assume everyone got 7%, then that means there is 371,428 BTC invested, but since not everyone gets 7%, the true figure is higher.  Also, this doesn't include the people who automatically reinvest their interest.  I've no idea what percentage of the interest is automatically reinvested, but let's assume it's none at all.

Even with these assumptions, the least possible amount invested is 371,428 BTC, or $3,298,280 at the current price of $8.88/BTC.

[Micon]

"you have no proof Micon!  I want to believe so badly that whatever scam I'm invested in or whatever scam I'm running is really my ticket to riches, so much so that I can easily put myself into a state of denial where I believe 7% per WEEK paid interest is in any way sustainable and not an outright, blatant, and obvious scam"

I must post this again because some of you missed it the first time.  I'm going bold + different color this time for max effect:

This is a statement from the Wikipedia on Ponzi schemes --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

Typically extraordinary returns are promised on the investment,[5] and vague verbal constructions such as "hedge futures trading," "high-yield investment programs", "offshore investment" might be used. The promoter sells shares to investors by taking advantage of a lack of investor knowledge or competence, or using claims of a proprietary investment strategy which must be kept secret to ensure a competitive edge.

Here is what Pirateat40 has listed as the reason he makes money and can pay 7% weekly interest  --> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=50822.0

Q: What are my coins used for?
A: Coins are primarily used for large investment transactions but may also include the following:
Market Arbitrage
Private Loans To Network Members
Never Criminal/Illegal Related

Q: How do you make enough money to pay these rates?
A: If I told you then I couldn't do what I do.

Any man of science can see this is a slightly updated BTC-version of a Ponzi scheme.

[hgmichna]

Whats the chance all the ponzis will collapse at once ?  

It's possible they'll collapse like dominoes and possibly even take down some legitimate funds with them. When one collapses, people might fear that others are going to collapse too and make a large number of simultaneous withdrawals, forcing others (whether Ponzi or legitimate) into an equity or liquidity crisis.

I don't think there is any legitimate fund that quotes its interest weekly or monthly. The ones that do that are after those who didn't pay attention to some maths lessons at school and cannot calculate compound interest.

It is really laughable, but I guess if pirateat40 had quoted his gains as 3,300% annually, he would have gotten far fewer "investors".

[Micon]

Jon Matonis will write the story with a headline something like this "$1M+ USD bitcoin ponzi scheme collapses"

Last week, BS&T paid out 26,000 BTC in interest.

The top tier interest rate is 7%.  Some people get less.  If we assume everyone got 7%, then that means there is 371,428 BTC invested, but since not everyone gets 7%, the true figure is higher.  Also, this doesn't include the people who automatically reinvest their interest.  I've no idea what percentage of the interest is automatically reinvested, but let's assume it's none at all.

Even with these assumptions, the least possible amount invested is 371,428 BTC, or $3,298,280 at the current price of $8.88/BTC.

I assume that some forum users that are +1'ing the "yup Pirate sent me my interest yet again thanks!!!" are shill users in control of the Ponzi owner, which mix extremely well with real users that actually did just get their 7% again this week.  Pirate is a good scammer.  Those numbers are extremely alarming, and if you don't mind please link me to where that information comes from - is it simple addition of forum users that claim to have been paid?  do the numbers come from the block chain? could Pirate be sending BTC from his main wallet to just some other wallet he controls and then claims the transaction as interest?  

[dooglus]

Those numbers are extremely alarming, and if you don't mind please link me to where that information comes from - is it simple addition of forum users that claim to have been paid?  do the numbers come from the block chain? could Pirate be sending BTC from his main wallet to just some other wallet he controls and then claims the transaction as interest?  

They're from the blockchain, yes.  It's possible pirate has set up some dummy accounts which he pays interest to each week but which go back into a wallet he controls, but what's the advantage to him of making the scheme look bigger than it actually is?

i really wonder how anyone can know this.

the reason is, because when i ask for a withdrawal, it comes in exactly the same transaction as the interest payment.

I didn't realise that.  I thought that withdrawals and interest were separate transactions.

[Clipse]

Those numbers are extremely alarming, and if you don't mind please link me to where that information comes from - is it simple addition of forum users that claim to have been paid?  do the numbers come from the block chain? could Pirate be sending BTC from his main wallet to just some other wallet he controls and then claims the transaction as interest?  

They're from the blockchain, yes.  It's possible pirate has set up some dummy accounts which he pays interest to each week but which go back into a wallet he controls, but what's the advantage to him of making the scheme look bigger than it actually is?

i really wonder how anyone can know this.

the reason is, because when i ask for a withdrawal, it comes in exactly the same transaction as the interest payment.

I didn't realise that.  I thought that withdrawals and interest were separate transactions.

Well dooglus thats the same mistake every other hick tends to make, they "assume" and they "think" and therefore they are all facts to them.

[CoinCidental]

wait you think because Pirateat40 has a $1M+ USD ponzi scheme it's not bad for bitcoin because it's only ~ 1% of total BTC?  you should say it like this:

"HOLY SHIT HE HAS 1% OF ALL BTC "INVESTED" IN HIS SCAM!  Over $1M USD!  HE MUST BE STOPPED"

you don't care at all that a guy is scamming anyone stupid enough to send him BTC right here on these forums, and he has already acquired $1M USD+ ?  this seems alarming, extremely wrong, horrible for bitcoin, and something should be done about it.

We have the same opinion. I just have a few minor reservations.

• Bitcoin is in its early stage. It seems that the bitcoin community is bound to repeat all mistakes that happened in the history of all pre-existing financial markets.
• I do care, but I don't see what more we could do. Publishing clear and explicit explanations and warnings apparently has to suffice. But if you have any better idea, let's try it.

What I would like to do is find out who the perpetrator is and who his henchmen are. We know their forum nicknames, but that may not be good enough to bring them behind bars. I particularly dislike that they may get away with the money they stole. I could imagine though that those who lose the most money might track him down.

Eventually everyone running a bitcoin "bank " ,exchange ,investment or wallet service   should be mandatory to provide Identification ,authenticated by a local police department ,law firm or notary BEFORE they take in the first deposit ,thats just common sense

Its unfortunate that there will be a few major scams before this happens but its going to have to happen sooner or later

Giving anonymous money **a few million dollars worth**   to anonymous guys on the internet  to anonymously "invest" has got to be a bad idea

[Micon]

Whats the chance all the ponzis will collapse at once ?  

It's possible they'll collapse like dominoes and possibly even take down some legitimate funds with them. When one collapses, people might fear that others are going to collapse too and make a large number of simultaneous withdrawals, forcing others (whether Ponzi or legitimate) into an equity or liquidity crisis.

I don't think there is any legitimate fund that quotes its interest weekly or monthly. The ones that do that are after those who didn't pay attention to some maths lessons at school and cannot calculate compound interest.

It is really laughable, but I guess if pirateat40 had quoted his gains as 3,300% annually, he would have gotten far fewer "investors".

whew!

another guy that gets it and has a fundamental understanding of economics.

the ponzi-defending in this thread was getting absurd.

I understand that there is this thread -->  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=79294.260  about +1'ing the fact that BCST is a ponzi, but it says "probably a ponzi"  which is weaksauce and does not address the many, many derivatives and other completely separate ponzi's and partial ponzis and funds that are exposed to ponzi.  I feel a deep need to expose scams of any sort that I spot.

I am going to ask the users with strong economics backgrounds to please also +1 this thread.  Also feel free to assign weight to your thoughts, i.e. for my own perosnal:

"I 100% think that BCST is a classic Ponzi scheme and anyone running a pass-through is helping Pirateat40 steal large amounts of BTC"

[vuce]

"you have no proof Micon!  I want to believe so badly that whatever scam I'm invested in or whatever scam I'm running is really my ticket to riches, so much so that I can easily put myself into a state of denial where I believe 7% per WEEK paid interest is in any way sustainable and not an outright, blatant, and obvious scam"

Thank you for manufacturing my posts.

No one said it was sustainable, in fact, even pirate himself said it isn't, and he will stop when it becomes unprofitable for him.

You also seem to think that everyone investing into this is an idiot. Majority of people have made money of it already and cannot lose anymore, since everything else is actually not their money anymore.

Anyway, that's all I'm going to say. This thread is hilarious

[miscreanity]

Why didn't all the "anti-pirate" crowd not send even one single representative to Vegas?

They're too busy wallowing in poverty and trying to convince everyone else to join them.

[finkleshnorts]

Whats the chance all the ponzis will collapse at once ?  

It's possible they'll collapse like dominoes and possibly even take down some legitimate funds with them. When one collapses, people might fear that others are going to collapse too and make a large number of simultaneous withdrawals, forcing others (whether Ponzi or legitimate) into an equity or liquidity crisis.

I don't think there is any legitimate fund that quotes its interest weekly or monthly. The ones that do that are after those who didn't pay attention to some maths lessons at school and cannot calculate compound interest.

It is really laughable, but I guess if pirateat40 had quoted his gains as 3,300% annually, he would have gotten far fewer "investors".

whew!

another guy that gets it and has a fundamental understanding of economics.

the ponzi-defending in this thread was getting absurd.

I understand that there is this thread -->  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=79294.260  about +1'ing the fact that BCST is a ponzi, but it says "probably a ponzi"  which is weaksauce and does not address the many, many derivatives and other completely separate ponzi's and partial ponzis and funds that are exposed to ponzi.  I feel a deep need to expose scams of any sort that I spot.

I am going to ask the users with strong economics backgrounds to please also +1 this thread.  Also feel free to assign weight to your thoughts, i.e. for my own perosnal:

"I 100% think that BCST is a classic Ponzi scheme and anyone running a pass-through is helping Pirateat40 steal large amounts of BTC"

I 87% think it's a Ponzi. So what. Let's talk about something else now. This was only fun to talk about the first 11 times around. I enjoyed the drama, but now I've got other dead horses to beat.

Anyone who runs a pass-through doing the community a favor. Whoever wants a slice of that pie should be able to have it.

Now, either I am going to be extremely pissed off that I missed out on the investment of a lifetime, or a lot of people are going to be robbed. Everything has been said that can possibly be said about it, now we just have to ride it out.  You came to the party about a month too late. It is good to raise your concerns, they are they same as about 40 other people on this forum, including me. But Every single one of your posts is FUD. Suckers will be suckers no matter how much you scream (that said, you and I may be the suckers here).

Ponzi Bob

[miscreanity]

You also seem to think that everyone investing into this is an idiot. Majority of people have made money of it already and cannot lose anymore, since everything else is actually not their money anymore.

Exactly. It takes just under 3 months to double the initial investment. After that, withdrawing the principal means the rest is pure profit.

Micon would've nearly doubled his money by now if he weren't such a maladroit. Some "pro" gambler.

[koin]

Why didn't all the "anti-pirate" crowd not send even one single representative to Vegas?

They're too busy wallowing in poverty and trying to convince everyone else to join them.

oh?

Thanks for the invite guys, that showed some real top class elitism...  

AFAIK, all you had to do was contact Pirate for details on where he'd be when. Did he deny you?

He took my number... said he would call with details..

Its all good I see how this works now, us common folk were not welcome I guess...

looks like some, particularly any who had expressed a whiff of concern, were not welcome.

[Micon]

Certainly, between them they must control what? $300k in coins? More?

More.

Also I'm not quite up to date - what's the situation with the Vegas show Pirate's supposed to be appearing at?

Just got back.  Had a fantastic time.  Met a lot of great guys in person that I had only known through this forum, various IRC and Skype rooms.  Had a long chat with pirateat40 over dinner.  We played craps for hours together.  At one point when we were down a few thousand he made the bet that ALL the other numbers would roll before a 7.  I believe this bet pays 178 for 1 and I tried to talk him out of this "sucker bet".  The very next shooter got on a very hot roll and made pass after pass.  At one point I looked over at the running bet and it turned out that every number had come up (before a 7 out) except the 5.  I asked the shooter to "roll us a 5 please", Pirate offered him $100 to do it on the next roll and I will be damned, he rolled a 5!  We had a fantatic night, Goat saw the whole thing and can verify my story.

Rode the NYNY roller coaster with copumpkin three time in row.  Met Reeses, one of the funniest people I have ever met.  Goat, Gigavps, and several others.

Obviously I am biased since I am one of the six owners of the PPT.x zero coupon bond system (see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=76594.0 for more details.)  I am still pissed we did not make the list. We were the first to market.  We coined the term PPT for "Pirate Pass Through".  I think we deserve the free advertising just as much of more than any of the other "PPTs".

The point is:  if you are so concerned about all this why the hell didn't you show up and chat with Pirate in person yourself?  Why didn't all the "anti-pirate" crowd not send even one single representative to Vegas?  I got my airline ticket at the last minute and got the flight and hotel for less than 500 bucks.  Surely, between the lot of you anti-pirates you could have scrounged together $500 to send one guy to meet him and report back to your clan.

1)  I'm a total defcon newb.  It has always interested me but I'm extremely busy running around all day trying to make this paper in a number of different ways the past decade or so.  Started reading about infosec a little bit when Anonymous started fucking with Scientology, and really started to go HAM when I saw lulzsec was taking bitcoin donations.  As soon as I found bitcoin I haven't stopped spending every free moment studying it.  I should have been more prepared and I really wanted to meet Bitcoin guys at Defcon - but i was playing the WSOP the 1.5 months leading up to this and I played a pretty intense schedule this year / didn't read / didn't understand / didn't make plans to go or get in the meet up thread on here and I really, really regret that.  I want to meet all of you fine BTC'ers.  'Specially the scammers.

2)  I spent thursday, friday, saturday, and sunday wandering the Rio with a Bitcoin button (ty Freemoney) in the middle of my white tee (yup), putting on some 12 hour $1-$3 NL poker sessions just to talk with awesome defcon'ers about bitcoin and all the next level shit they are into.  It was so much fucking fun.  I ended up drinking all night 1 of the nights with 2 awesome dudes and by 6am we were arguing (more like they were explaining to me) particle physics / CERN project / Higgs and shit.   no one has a players card except those that choose to self-dox.  I made that decision long ago before I knew the ramifications of it.  I digress

3)  Your shameful manner is shameful.  you seem smart enough to know you are hurting a large amount of "investors" for a small pass-through profit margin.

4)  Do you believe that Pirateat40 and his BCST will continue indefinitely?  do you believe it to be sustainable?  I could get backing and escrow a $1M USD bet that Bitcoin Savings & Trust will default within 5 years.  I could have cash at Aria for that wager within 2 weeks it's such an obvious scam.

5)  I really wish I could have met this guy.  Love to see scammers in their scamming role and see how good they are.  This Pirate guy seems to be pretty good, not great, def. not the best unless he turns out to be PeterDC, a scammer I'm currently tracking on DonkDown that has cheated many sports bettors.  obv live in Vegas and if any of you guys want to meet in a casino I'm always here.  Would really, really love to meet Pirateat40 and he is hereby issued a challenge to debate me on my live podcast on Wed.  Any of you naysayers are welcome if he won't come on the show (which he won't, he knows it's -EV for him)

[JoelKatz]

Majority of people have made money of it already and cannot lose anymore, since everything else is actually not their money anymore.

It doesn't work that way. If a fraudster gives you another investor's money, you don't get to keep it. Every dollar you withdraw is a liability. False profits can be clawed back to repay current "investors". Fraudulent transfers can be undone.

http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2010/12/18/picower_estate_adds_72b_to_madoff_fund/
http://utahsecuritiesfraud.com/2010/08/02/clawback-lawsuits-how-investing-in-a-ponzi-scheme-can-bite-you-twice/

If you received payments from a Ponzi scheme, your interest payments were not in fact interest payments. They were fraudulent transfers of other people's deposits.

[Micon]

"you have no proof Micon!  I want to believe so badly that whatever scam I'm invested in or whatever scam I'm running is really my ticket to riches, so much so that I can easily put myself into a state of denial where I believe 7% per WEEK paid interest is in any way sustainable and not an outright, blatant, and obvious scam"

Thank you for manufacturing my posts.

No one said it was sustainable, in fact, even pirate himself said it isn't, and he will stop when it becomes unprofitable for him.

You also seem to think that everyone investing into this is an idiot. Majority of people have made money of it already and cannot lose anymore, since everything else is actually not their money anymore.

Anyway, that's all I'm going to say. This thread is hilarious

You are a prime example of someone I can't do nothin' else for.  

here is a direct quote, not an obvious and lulzy satire like last post:

Majority of people have made money of it already and cannot lose anymore, since everything else is actually not their money anymore.

so the majority, i.e. >50% of the total "investors" in BCST have made money in your opinion?