Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network

[ohad]

I think you would get more funding that you deserve for this project if you do more marketing, make a better website, better graphics, make youtube infomercial videos, do more interviews. Then I think you would get all the funding you want for this project so you can make it a success.

The world needs the technology that you are developing. I wish you and your project success.

Well, no big media attention, the easier to run away. No sign of github yet...
better waiting

media: last article  http://cointelegraph.com/news/115118/tau-chain-a-decentralized-app-store-with-greater-flexibility-than-ethereum
also wide exposure of Zennet (which is now a ""little"" feature in Agoras) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=736447.msg8321043#msg8321043

github: http://github.com/naturalog/tauchain

[SmokingSkull]

I think you would get more funding that you deserve for this project if you do more marketing, make a better website, better graphics, make youtube infomercial videos, do more interviews. Then I think you would get all the funding you want for this project so you can make it a success.

The world needs the technology that you are developing. I wish you and your project success.

Well, no big media attention, the easier to run away. No sign of github yet...
better waiting

media: last article  http://cointelegraph.com/news/115118/tau-chain-a-decentralized-app-store-with-greater-flexibility-than-ethereum
also wide exposure of Zennet (which is now a ""little"" feature in Agoras) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=736447.msg8321043#msg8321043

github: http://github.com/naturalog/tauchain

my mistake. thx.

[johny08]

Can someone tell me what token owners get in return?

Agoras will be an economy offering many new features, like trustlessly hiring programmers (as in the blogpost Code and Money), or hiring other professionals (c.f. Bitagoras), or computer resources (like Zennet), or release coins for any provable "thing", at the sense of tau's proofs.
All Agoras' markets will have one coin. Those coins are being pre-sold, and the msc intermediate token is only for buyers to have something transferrable in hand and will be converted to the real coins. So the msc tokens will cease being operational upon Agoras' genesis where the actual coins take place, and the buyers get a share on Agoras economy.

Okay, so it's like "app fuel" for one or more markets?

But it seems it's not possible to objectively estimate future "value" of such tokens, so how is one supposed to figure out whether to buy or not?

checking out the blog might help get a better understanding of the system and how and in what ways things can and are implemented into tau.

http://www.idni.org/blog

this one likely gives the best picture of its abilities and maybe future worth

http://www.idni.org/blog/post6
 

Augora is not nothing more, what can not be programmed on Ethereum.

Please correct me if I am wrong. Please, argument with links or examples.

Thank you in advance for great conversation.

[ohad]

Augora is not nothing more, what can not be programmed on Ethereum.

Please correct me if I am wrong. Please, argument with links or examples.

Thank you in advance for great conversation.

I can answer in more detail later, but for now see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=950309.msg12158861#msg12158861 and you also cannot do www.idni.org/blog/code-and-money with ethereum ("thanks" to the Turing completeness as enhanced a bit more at https://docs.google.com/document/d/16239hEjL_IgXYsk2I6RMjMKhmUte30leYI3jJ-Vgp3M/edit#heading=h.2bcszerkwj2g )

[lordoliver]

who is selling at lower price now? I hope not the Tau-Chain team as it was promised to raise the price not to lower it...

[ohad]

who is selling at lower price now? I hope not the Tau-Chain team as it was promised to raise the price not to lower it...

It is some early buyer as can be seen at http://omnichest.info/lookupsp.aspx?sp=35 tx 3f252

[Luckybit]

I read the whitepaper, looked at the code, and with that understanding I can see Tau-Chain has massive potential.

The uncertainty is whether or not it can be developed to meet it's potential. If it can do what I think it can do, then it should be self funding and self sustainable once it gets up and running, similar to Bitshares, Ethereum, or NXT, where the community will be able to simply vote on proposals or fund new development using the market mechanisms.

Tau-Chain also has some unexpected surprises in how it has evolvability, which is something a lot of developers overlook. The only problem with Tau-Chain at this time is the difficulty in explaining the concept, and the uncertainty around whether or not it will work, but that is the same uncertainty Bitcoin had, Mastercoin had, Bitshares had, NXT, had, Ethereum had, so if you give money to Ohad consider it donation for the furthering of a science project which has potential to change the world if successful.

[ohad]

I read the whitepaper, looked at the code, and with that understanding I can see Tau-Chain has massive potential.

The uncertainty is whether or not it can be developed to meet it's potential. If it can do what I think it can do, then it should be self funding and self sustainable once it gets up and running, similar to Bitshares, Ethereum, or NXT, where the community will be able to simply vote on proposals or fund new development using the market mechanisms.

Tau-Chain also has some unexpected surprises in how it has evolvability, which is something a lot of developers overlook. The only problem with Tau-Chain at this time is the difficulty in explaining the concept, and the uncertainty around whether or not it will work, but that is the same uncertainty Bitcoin had, Mastercoin had, Bitshares had, NXT, had, Ethereum had, so if you give money to Ohad consider it donation for the furthering of a science project which has potential to change the world if successful.

Thanks!
Would be nice if you could point to what you're not convinced is possible, and maybe I'll be able to point to existing implementations of such.

[lordoliver]

Please try to find a possiblity to prevent pool mining. This is in my opinion the biggest issue of BTC...

[ohad]

Please try to find a possiblity to prevent pool mining. This is in my opinion the biggest issue of BTC...

On tau one shouldn't be concerned about those issues at all. See my replies to Synechist's comments on http://cointelegraph.com/news/115118/tau-chain-a-decentralized-app-store-with-greater-flexibility-than-ethereum  and the protocol's flexibility https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=950309.msg12158861#msg12158861

[lordoliver]

Please try to find a possiblity to prevent pool mining. This is in my opinion the biggest issue of BTC...

On tau one shouldn't be concerned about those issues at all. See my replies to Synechist's comments on http://cointelegraph.com/news/115118/tau-chain-a-decentralized-app-store-with-greater-flexibility-than-ethereum  and the protocol's flexibility https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=950309.msg12158861#msg12158861

what about making a pool and try to change the protocols base logic with a 51% attack?

[ohad]

Please try to find a possiblity to prevent pool mining. This is in my opinion the biggest issue of BTC...

On tau one shouldn't be concerned about those issues at all. See my replies to Synechist's comments on http://cointelegraph.com/news/115118/tau-chain-a-decentralized-app-store-with-greater-flexibility-than-ethereum  and the protocol's flexibility https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=950309.msg12158861#msg12158861

what about making a pool and try to change the protocols base logic with a 51% attack?

Nothing at that scope has to be predefined - it can be changed with time according to a method the users themselves set.
Like it is possible to create a coin over tau that will be programmed to change its behavior with votes of X% of clients, or stake, or anything.
So it is ok to "make mistakes" like letting the pool problems arise, and when it arises, just to change the rules without having to fork.

[lordoliver]

Nothing at that scope has to be predefined - it can be changed with time according to a method the users themselves set.
Like it is possible to create a coin over tau that will be programmed to change its behavior with votes of X% of clients, or stake, or anything.
So it is ok to "make mistakes" like letting the pool problems arise, and when it arises, just to change the rules without having to fork.

But you wrote something of a "basic logic", that can't be changed. So if someone wants to change that, for example to a logic, that makes all other included logic senceless?

[ohad]

Nothing at that scope has to be predefined - it can be changed with time according to a method the users themselves set.
Like it is possible to create a coin over tau that will be programmed to change its behavior with votes of X% of clients, or stake, or anything.
So it is ok to "make mistakes" like letting the pool problems arise, and when it arises, just to change the rules without having to fork.

But you wrote something of a "basic logic", that can't be changed. So if someone wants to change that, for example to a logic, that makes all other included logic senceless?

ah, the logic itself means the very low level rules of logic, the foundation of mathematics, literally. like, you cannot modify modus ponens in tau, of course, and that's the low level we speak about here. or, you cannot have a block which is logically incosistent (i.e. contradicts itself).

please recall - tau stands for tautology!

[lordoliver]

so, what happens for example, if someone starts a "51% attack" where the logic is manipulated in a way, that inconsistent blocks are allowed?

[ohad]

so, what happens for example, if someone starts a "51% attack" where the logic is manipulated in a way, that inconsistent blocks are allowed?

51% attack is irrelevant here because a node doesn't have to believe the majority where it can verify logical consistency itself.

[ohad]

Which goes back to the problem with Turing completeness. On Turing complete languages, you can prove a statement and also prove its negation!
An example is the Halting problem.
But any contradiction (like Russel's paradox) can be elevated in a Turing machine to prove *any* statement being both true and false.

To be more precise:
Godel gave us two options - completeness or consistency. Can't have both.
Turing completeness gives away consistency.
Martin-Lof type theory (tau's logic) is consistent, decidable, but is not complete only at the sense of infinite computers (in which Turing model allows).

[lordoliver]

Ok, good to see, that you already thought about all those things. Just wanted to give suggestions.

[ohad]

Ok, good to see, that you already thought about all those things. Just wanted to give suggestions.

And I thank you for that! Will be glad for more issues to be raised.

[Luckybit]

I read the whitepaper, looked at the code, and with that understanding I can see Tau-Chain has massive potential.

The uncertainty is whether or not it can be developed to meet it's potential. If it can do what I think it can do, then it should be self funding and self sustainable once it gets up and running, similar to Bitshares, Ethereum, or NXT, where the community will be able to simply vote on proposals or fund new development using the market mechanisms.

Tau-Chain also has some unexpected surprises in how it has evolvability, which is something a lot of developers overlook. The only problem with Tau-Chain at this time is the difficulty in explaining the concept, and the uncertainty around whether or not it will work, but that is the same uncertainty Bitcoin had, Mastercoin had, Bitshares had, NXT, had, Ethereum had, so if you give money to Ohad consider it donation for the furthering of a science project which has potential to change the world if successful.

Thanks!
Would be nice if you could point to what you're not convinced is possible, and maybe I'll be able to point to existing implementations of such.

What I meant is that while everything about what you are doing is logically sound, the theory is correct, the uncertainty is whether or not you'll be able to build out the design with the limited funding you've received so far. The design is excellent so I can't really find any flaw with it but it also seems like it would take years to code.

What I like about it is that it seems to be the most scalable and flexible design possible, while also being secure. You've changed my opinions on Turing completeness, I now see that the Tauchain way of doing things is correct.

Please try to find a possiblity to prevent pool mining. This is in my opinion the biggest issue of BTC...

From my understanding, Tauchain can run Bitcoin inside it, or really run any practical implementation of any algorithm. So if Tauchain is built I don't see why you can't do far better than Bitcoin from within the Tauchain space.

Sorry if I'm not the best at explaining things but I see the same sort of potential with Tauchain that I saw with Bitcoin. Bitcoin is like an  app which can run on Tauchain, and all apps are just proofs, algorithms. So any app should be able to run on Tauchain in theory without any practical limitation. Ethereum will have some issues because of the insistence on being Turing complete which while sounding nice but I see no practical benefit yet I see security risks.

The only concern I have with Tauchain is people might not understand it. It has the potential but just like with Bitcoin, a lot of people might have to learn a lot of new concepts to understand what exactly it is. I suppose once there is a demo out there, so people can have some evidence that it works in practice rather than in theory, then we will see adoption.

The main issue I think people have when they first learn about Tauchain is that it is doing something they previously thought was impossible. Of course if you look at the references section of the whitepaper you can trace back the thought processes of Ohad to find that it is plausible, it just hasn't been tested in practice as far as I know. I've not seen anything like Tauchain built before, only talked about.