You have not responded. Let's try for one more time.  Yes or No. Not a lot of word salad trying to justify a bunch of excuses from merit/meta circle club.

So Yes or NO

1/Most of all pre merit legends are spammers

2/Is it crazy and idiotic to believe that some of the 99.87% of users can make posts as good if not better than some of the 0.13% of users (the top 200 merited individuals)

For now I will concentrate on suchmoon because I don't want to muddy the waters with excuses from malboroza.

For now try to hold up responding with excuses like well I just like reading merit board where there are basically just my pals, some noobs looking for merit crumbs and people wondering why their accounts are banned for copy and paste . The funny part is TP thought is was a legit and reasonable reply (that you made) and was obviously thinking it looked shady as would any other person looking at it.

The fact you think this kind of bookmarking your favs and showering merit on them as opposed to naturally browsing the board and giving merit to posts you organically fine 100% would exclude you from being a mod. Mods are mean to be totally objective and treat the systems in place in the spirit they were designed.  I mean the fact that a host of the top merit sources and holders freely admit they don't venture to the alt boards ( the boards most greatly effect and the greatest need to sort the wheat from the chaff) is in itself makes it obvious not even nearly the same chance exists for a merit on the alt boards as on the meta board.

There is no real need for opinion I have offered all these people a chance to demonstrate their merit is from a broad base of recognition and not one has offered to post their merit scores after passing a simple filter.

I want you to respond with one simple answer malboroza...

What is your earned merit score now and what would be your merit score if we removed the opinions of 0.13% of this board and removed all your meta merit.  Let me know that answer because these scores are what none of you care to publish where as you can not contain yourselves posting all other kinds of merit data.


Same goes for suchmoon TP fox loyce and any others arguing in this thread that merit is an accurate representation of post value.

Post your new scores or stop replying. I say you will all lose 80% or greater. Let's see if you lose less than 50% I will be very impressed but I know most will exceed an 80% loss.

I await to here such moons answers and all the other merit cycling clubs scores before they ask any more questions or make any more excuses.

I will wait to hear why you all lose such a huge 80% or great of your merits if just the opinions of 0.13% of users are cast aside and 1 tiny sub board which may have a reasonable amount of posts but I notice there are only a tiny % of regular posters that make the vast majority of the posts here.

So let me just ask this question to you all - suchmoon, loyce , anyone in this thread in a top 50 merited position posting in this thread.

I say some here have their merits reduced by over 90% which is quite hilarious.

Come on enough excuses, I don't have time, these stats are not important, these stats don't show anything, I don't like viewing other boards, I don't like viewing other peoples posts only bookmark my friends post histories, I can safely assume 99.87% of users can't make any good posts, lol

Now read this post and make some answers to the questions. suchmoon is refusing to answer yes or no to 2 simple questions on his previous statements, all are refusing to refute my statement they all lose 80%-90% + of their merits ....


@loyce

Please answer one set of questions before proceeding to the next stage of the conversation

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5081670.msg48556141#msg48556141


There is no point me even reading your posts if you are not willing to even make an effort to substantiate the claims that you make. I mean make an effort or remain quiet. Suchmoon at least will try sometimes to substantiate his excuses you just vanish for days then think you can come back and make no effort to provide any argument at all for your statements. Of course he wants to forget his rash statements made in anger because he is very emotional and that can cloud his otherwise reasonable and at time valuable contributions. Once he is able to discuss things in a civil way and not take everything to personally he will make a much better poster.

I am happy to remain civil and discuss anything reasonably, but I can not waste time on those that will not make effort to respond to questions or validate their statements. 

foxpup is a joker but seems to be able to remain civil.

I don't have an issue with any of you you are not scammers or anything really bad but you are unwilling to accept that your inflated merit scores are easily explained in other terms that are not because you are the most valuable posters. I have seen several times people implying their argument or their value is greater than someone else because of their higher merit score. This is not essentially true. You can not make statements like that.

The fact those the most effected by the removal of the merit club cycling and meta club are here arguing the most is quite telling too.

Oh ... you're back. Or here anyway who knows with you and fox pup.

It has taken you like 2 days (in my time anyway) to dream up this response and once again ignore my previous questions. Try answering those first then we can discuss further else it just turns into a one sided debate with you not answering anything but just asking me more and more questions. I'm not asking for anything new I am asking for you to reaffirm your previous statements so I know if there is any chance of a sensible conversation. While you're about it show me the stats/evidence to back those up too since you love stats and have 20 other buddies who are stats experts it will be a trivial task.  Then you get to ask me things too.

I totally agree with the you that the mods here can't be expected to review the entire post histories.

However do you think.

1. some form of paid (by offender) review should be available to run their entire histroy through a checker?
2. have some sort of reduced sentence like no more sigs for a year or ever or reduced in rank by 2 levels for single stupid infraction like this one or perhaps a 1 in 1000 rate of instance where the person is still clearly a net positive and not a complete waste of space financially motivated spammer? I mean real members who just want to remain will probably not care too much about losing a sig for a year but to lose their entire post history (especially legends) must be quite terrible and in some cases could destroy important histroy.

 

That is a terrible idea.

Imagine a court room where only the prosecution can speak in private to the accused.

I think all ban appeals here have been useful and actually demonstrate the correct decision has been taken in the first place in 99% of cases.

However everyone deserves to know why and have a fair chance to get the feedback from a larger sample size - the larger sample size can also do more investigative work.

There is no need to lock the threads because it seems the OP usually gets more data presented that reveals they have done it several times not just one isolated case and the decision is therefore valid.

What else will we talk about in meta except merit if there are no ban appeals?

There is nothing really more to say about merit allocation. I think the evidence is there in this thread for people to understand that is it very subjective and circulated amongst the 0.13% on one sub board to a degree that distorts any real value in the scores.

Can you explain these contrarian views that I have been voicing? - this is different from the playing devils advocate in the ban appeals?

Tell me which parts of suchmoons failed rebuttals of my posts you can completely understand?  Please give a detailed and structured argument that I can consider and decide if the evidence/case provide requires me to reconsider. I am actually a very open minded person.

Are these contrarian views?...

Most pre merit legends are spammers

It is idiotic to assume some of the 99.87% of this board can make posts as good or better than some of the 0.13%.

Or are those views that you share with suchmoon too? Actually I would be interested to hear your views on precisely those two opinions.

I mean I was not really too bothered about continuing this thread as I feel there was enough material for people to review themselves and make up their own minds. However, since I keep seeing more people replying to me then I guess it could be rude to not respond and try to find out what exactly they mean.

@ marlboroza

I'm glad you don't think it looks right.

It was grateful my hacker did not read my pm's I never put any info in there now that is valuable.
But for sure those PM's would be super valuable and of interest to many.

I am glad Theymos has decided not to reveal anything about satoshi but  if I am honest I would have liked to have read the pms, and would be hard to resist for myself just a quick glance over satoshis pm's if I was admin.

Is this the only case or is there more? Could this be some kind of error I mean he can not really be seriously claiming this is his own work it is posted only 2 posts before his. This looks more like a airdrop thread where they all parrot the same shit getting some crumbs. It used to be okay to just do this. I don't think he is seriously trying to pass this work off as his own.

I guess if that was his only one then a coulple of  months ban and a small btc find could be enough. He seems financially motivated so hit him up for a 0.2BTC fine I expect he would never do it again.

These airdrop threads where everyone used to say the same thing over and over are junk anyway. The devs used to even say reply with "bla bla bla bla" so we all had to reply with the same " x project looks to be great I want in "

The trouble is the not really these shitty airdrop threads because nobody bothers with this now unless they are totally desperate since 99% are scams. The real offenders are the fake conversation scum in the discussion boards or the meaningless posters on the ANN threads.

Only a reasonably new account anyway so not like this person has put years of effort in and done a lot of good for the board.

Just saying if that is the only one it looks like either an quote error or certainly not someone claiming that is his own work. It was posted 2 posts before his on the same thread. Not like some who are sneakily getting posts from months before in different threads and using to get sig money or whatever.

edit.. I think since it is a fairly recent account it is pointless to contest it really. Nobody will probably be willing to see if there are more instances and he probably does not have the funds to pay any person to scan it over to find out.  Even then there has been no perm ban over turned yet... even legends so seems a long road to nowhere. Once all typing the same nonsense over and over in airdrops was allowed but it has been banned for a while i guess. To me it unfortunate to lose your account over that one instance. If i knew for sure it was just that one time I would let you off with a temp ban and even a merit reduction but I don't have any control over it.

Could not agree with your more.  Let's hope if we are to get more mods this is exactly the kind that are added.

That's fair enough it is a demanding job and I imagine can be stressful too.

Dmdrdmdr seems to have a more balanced and logical mind I guess he would not be too bad for this.  I mean anyone who is reasonable and balanced, objective, and willing to revise a decision if observable events suggest it is needed should be considered if they have enough experience here.

The only person I know of that was doing free design analysis of these complex new designs (ones that had strong technical whitepapers) and publishing his findings was anonymint. I was often bookmarking his posts and reading regularly because although I could not fully understand what he was saying in all cases I then used to compare what other devs would say in reply to him. By matching up whether they agreed, were still debating or disagreed one could get an idea themselves and make a best guess on if it was a good idea to get involved or wait and watch. Most of what he said about designs and future issues were very accurate from what I could tell.

This would be the IDEAL situation.

However there are only a handful of persons that can screen a projects design and make useful analysis.  Also with ico distributional processes having capped limits reached in seconds it is impossible to tell if that was just a very popular project or just a 100% instamine by colluding whales.

The paid group would also be under huge temptation to push forward projects brimming with ico bitcoins for back handers so this is quite a risky thing too.

Better to use age of account + merit (capped at 200 earned) for cumulative value of topic. The opt out button mentioned by suchmoon would be good idea too to avoid contributing to perceived value when posting to inform people it is a scam or questioning the dev team to get much needed answeres.

Well I agree that is why subjectivity must be removed as far as it is possible and strict criteria applied. However the human element of fairness and empathy must be strong in any position of power things are rarely black and white and the context is never the same. It is a difficult position and one that I feel is tough to get right all the time.  The decision and basis must always be transparent though which makes the job even more tough.

I think the moderation on this board is very good as it is. New mods must be selected very carefully.  I would say any person that is willing to do their best to find the optimal decision based on all information at hand is the man for the job.

The fact this board allows questioning and analysis of decisions makes moderator position even more demanding but is one of the best things about this board. It is really in the spirit of this entire arena.

I have to wonder why darkstar is not on this list. Perhaps he does not want to be but actually since I have taken a break from the alt board and discovered new users on the sub boards this person seems to be open minded and balanced. If he wishes not to be then that is completely understandable as it is a demanding and time consuming position.

Only issue is all the new shiny shitty scamming icos with big bags of mugs bitcoins will afford the top slots.

The older decentralised projects where the devs work on shoe strings because it was distributed in a trustless transparent way like POW will not have funds to pay.

This favours the worst of the bunch.

Let's if we give alts their own sub forums have the ones that have produced something other than a expensive piece of white paper that is good only for wiping your ass with.

I don't think it would take much to create criteria for alts to pass to gain their own sub forum. Money though should not guarantee greater advantage because bitscammingponzi whatever it was called that loans one that went bang and the cops were after them would have paid for a top spot.

I prefer models where everyone has the same opportunity to be heard according to fair analysis of their real value.

Since that is impossible to implement short of having AI review every post and mark it against strict complex criteria (same for everyone) then we can try to filter the merit scores as we have them now.

I would cap merit weight at 150-200 earned merits (*nobody to me has fairly earned more than this these numbers are not purely guess work and come from light analysis of the merit system ) this can be increased gradually and sensibly over time so that merit scores have semblance of useful representation of the value of the member. This although does not take into account all those good posts drown out by the spammers on their fav parts of the forum it does a good job balancing things for a quick fix.

If we really want to start attributing weight to merit though there would need really to be a complete overhaul to make it a fairer system that is far more objective and gave a similar chance of review for all posts. Either that or work out some good filters and caps.

I actually believe a safer way is to weight  both merit (capped or overhauled) and activity.

* by fair i mean that given from where we started with merit it was impossible to give the same opportunity to all posters regardless of which board they post on due to dilution by spam. I also do believe a few do not treat the merit system exactly as it was intended to be used.

I agree and they are not even that popular only with each other.  Most are quite unsuitable for any position of power here.

Fairness is the number 1 thing I would look for.  Being a moderator is akin to being a judge. You need balance, logic and reason along with being objective and open minded.

Some of these have proven they certainly are not good selections for being a mod.

You need people that are open minded and not afraid to revise their first decision if logical and reasonable consideration of observable events require it. Also need to be balanced and fair.

There is only 1 person so far that I have encountered that seemed to be sensible and reasonable.

What criteria was used to place these selections here.

For sure I do not say ALL would be unsuitable but for certain some would.

See what I mean the guy just can't stop himself.... he can't stay away from me.



Okay okay

First before I indulge your requests. Let's clear 2 things up.

1. do you believe " most " pre merit legends are spammers?
2. do you still say that I was incorrect to assume that some of the 99.87% of the board are capable of making posts as good if not better than some made by the 0.13%?

Are you keeping to your original views that most pre merit legends are spammers and  that none of the 99.87% are capable of making posts as good or better than some of the 0.13%

Let me try that for the 6th or 20th time with you first.

Answer those and I will get you some posts worthy of merit (compared to some of the run of the mill low value posts the 0.13% give merit to each other for)that have yet not received any.

The subtle difference is there but that is not what I asked you specifically and not what you replied to. Re- read it again. Here is my question. There is no point trying to change things now.

"Yes or no out  of the remaining 99.87% of the board can some of them make as good or better posts than those in the 0.13%? I mean is it likely or not?"

that was what you replied to

Even so to say there is not unmerrited individuals making posts as good or better than a lot of the redundant shit the top 0.13% get merits for is ludicrous.  However that was not what you were replying to. So stop trying to back step.

Next you'll say "most" pre merit legends just means a few.

@fox

Suchmoon keeps seeking me out. I feel bad ignoring him just because I am not interested .. he puts such effort in it just does not seem charitable. It could be more interesting if he could hold a sensible conversation and not forget things he says every few mins or out right deny them. Then getting angry and annoyed.

You show me evidence of your time machine and I will indulge some of your requests.
The onus is on you really. I mean if i were reading this and viewing the evidence ......would i believe you use a time machine to view the board naturally and treat merit as suggested or would I believe you just open your merit buddies post history and just hammer on the merit button for his posts with hardly having time to find and read them before pressing.
People can draw their own conclusions.

Tell them you will flip their car over or explode their hot water bottles if they don't let you back in.

This did not escape me.

Foxpup offered up what I consider a reasonable (by meta club standards) explanation regarding time travel.  I accept that here at meta club one needs to adapt to these alternative realities where good posters from a group of 99.87% of the board are akin to unicorns where as within the the 0.13% they are impossible to avoid. Obviously my jealousy over the box of foxpup deadly ass fog must have been clouding my judgement. Nothing to see here.

As ever Foxpup is attentive to the thread and gives it the usual 2 second glance over (which I appreciate could be many eons in his time) and does not notice I have no interest in even talking to suchmoon - he seems to unable to hold a conversation since he forgets he has said things only moments earlier. You're not dragging him around in your time machine are you. Poor guy seems very confused.

Bones can't read either so it becomes difficult to get a sensible conversation going.

loyce just makes random statements then will not provide any evidence or even explanation of what he means.

PT well he just agrees with anything suchmoon incorrectly states.

fox pup well we know he is very generous to his merit club buddies and gives out great prizes (to them) but as yet we have not tested his debating skill. Of course with time travel at his disposal this is going to be very interesting. I am worried about getting on his bad side though he may send suchmoon back in time to when I was more vulnerable. I only ask you put him in those special clothes that don't get burned off in the transition.



So far we have

"most" pre merit legends are spammers

good posters from 99.87% of the board are unicorns.

Take what up with you fox pup? there is nothing to take up. You enjoy giving merit to your friends. You enjoy giving out great prizes. Carry on I don't have an issue with it. If you are enjoying yourselves what is that to do with me?

The issue is claiming merit is some objectively applied reward based on some set of criteria where all posts get equal chance of review. It simply is not that. Nothing more to say.

Fun though discovering new friends along the way.