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Author Topic: Butterflylabs Huge SCAM  (Read 387663 times)
JesuZ
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August 12, 2013, 12:57:55 PM
 #2421

Lol, if you guys have ever seen the video intro to the butterflylabs warehouse and office you'll shelves and racks of the 500gh/s and the 50gh/s models. My point is that if they really want to made money they would link all they machinery(if they really exist and mine that fast) together to dominate the bitcoin network. Note: the above is just my opinion, if you disagree, then disagree......
Ye, I've also thought that why sell devices (except ofcourse support bitcoin). When you are able to make huge profit by just running all your devices in huge server room...
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lucasjkr
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August 12, 2013, 01:53:12 PM
 #2422

There are some pretty big up front costs involved. It's not like you scrape up pocket change and have custom chips made up. So they could either have gone the route they went (develop chips and sell devices to end users) or go the ASICminer route, raise capital from a small group of investors, develop those same chips and hold your hashing power tight to your chest.

I'm glad that BFL took the route they took. Otherwise we'd have a completely different looking ecosystem, twin towers of AM and BFL, with the rest of the world trying to keep up using GPUs. Well, we'd have all of 1500 Avalon machines to fight over, or be afforded such great deals as friedcats 2BTC 330 MH device. Which, even after its latest price it, is still twice as much per hash as butterfly's offerings. Yes, you can get it sooner. But every day BFL wittles away at that.
millsdmb
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August 12, 2013, 01:57:46 PM
 #2423

There are some pretty big up front costs involved. It's not like you scrape up pocket change and have custom chips made up. So they could either have gone the route they went (develop chips and sell devices to end users) or go the ASICminer route, raise capital from a small group of investors, develop those same chips and hold your hashing power tight to your chest.

I'm glad that BFL took the route they took. Otherwise we'd have a completely different looking ecosystem, twin towers of AM and BFL, with the rest of the world trying to keep up using GPUs. Well, we'd have all of 1500 Avalon machines to fight over, or be afforded such great deals as friedcats 2BTC 330 MH device. Which, even after its latest price it, is still twice as much per hash as butterfly's offerings. Yes, you can get it sooner. But every day BFL wittles away at that.
the 330mh device is like .39 now btc and you know that even 2btc buyers were at least getting a product.

Where are the jalepenos?

Hitler Finds out about the Butterfly Labs Monarch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jYNMKdv36w
Get $10 worth of BTC Free when you buy $100 worth at coinbase.com/?r=51dffa8970f85a53bd000034
lucasjkr
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August 12, 2013, 02:25:06 PM
 #2424

Yeah. And at .39 for 330 MH, it comes in twice as expensive as Bfl's. I got a jalapeño. Sold it immediately because eBay was posting some amazing prices for them. Lots if others do the same, though the going prices are falling because there's more and more coming online. IMO people who bought those at 2btc proved PT Barnum right.

They seem slow in coming out, but we have zero clue how many orders they got. It could be 10's of thousands going by the range of order numbers people have posted. Though that number contains a lot of orders that people stepped through the system and then Didn't pay for, but it also contaibs lots if orders for more than one product, so its still a huge number likely. Even 10k orders of a single product each is going to take a while to fulfill in house. Not to mention assembling, etc.
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August 12, 2013, 02:51:06 PM
 #2425

Difficulty will increase by an estimated 36% in 26hrs which will lower the value of all pre-orders by this amount...and it will happen again and again until those pre-orders are worthless.

A decent price is only decent if you receive the gear when difficulty is low enough for said gear to be relevant. That will not be the case for those that purchased pre-order hardware from bfl this year and most of last as they're shipping entirely too slowly.

Chargeback if you're able.

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August 12, 2013, 03:45:49 PM
 #2426

i ordered back in april 2 jelapenos and im still waiting. even asicminer start sending and all the other competitoers are going beyond. im starting to feel robbed...... Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad
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August 12, 2013, 04:50:40 PM
 #2427

Even at higher difficulties these make sense. Your ROI isn't 2 weeks, just because you don't achieve 100% ROI in 2 weeks doesn't mean they're worthless. That's as silly as people on here offering $800 for an in hand jalapeño in early July. Yes, difficulty will get up there to the point that ROI is measured in months rather than weeks, and eventually non-existent, but were still a ways away from that. I think.
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August 12, 2013, 04:57:39 PM
 #2428

Why isn't anybody complaining to the BBB?

http://www.bbb.org/kansas-city/business-reviews/electronic-equipment-and-supplies-wholesale-and-manufacturers/bf-labs-inc-in-overland-park-ks-1000002011


creativex
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August 12, 2013, 05:44:28 PM
 #2429

Even at higher difficulties these make sense. Your ROI isn't 2 weeks, just because you don't achieve 100% ROI in 2 weeks doesn't mean they're worthless. That's as silly as people on here offering $800 for an in hand jalapeño in early July. Yes, difficulty will get up there to the point that ROI is measured in months rather than weeks, and eventually non-existent, but were still a ways away from that. I think.

<sigh>

We're not talking about an ROI of two weeks or even two years...we're talking about an ROI of approximately *NEVER*. There are more efficient products in the pipeline right now(Bitfury, knc, VMC, Hashfast, etc...). When those products become available in quantity the clock will start ticking and BFL has made it abundantly clear that they do not care about shipping products in a timely manner as per FTC rules. You will have a locked in(non-refundable) pre-order for a gen 1 ASIC while gen 2 ASICs destroy any possible hope of ever breaking even let alone making a profit.

Chargeback now if possible.

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August 12, 2013, 06:21:04 PM
 #2430

There's too many variables.  I would think that anyone mining is doing so under the hope that Bitcoin not only continues existing, but increases in price along the way.

Running through the numbers at Bitcoinx's calculator (http://www.bitcoinx.com/profit/)

Yes, if BTC/USD stays around $100, then even at 10x todays difficulty (370 million rather than 37 million), a Jalapeno will generate $55 per month. But difficulty is not that high yet, so they're in much better positions today. For instance, say next difficulty jump is to 55 million. A Jalapeno will earn $420 in a month.

Hashfast has renderings of their products on their website, and a disclaimer that when they get to actual silicon, there could be a huge variance in expected performance and power consumption.  But, yes, you can pre-order

Bitfury? They list a $90,000 miner that does 110 GH/s. Yeah, I'm sure a lot of people are lining up for that one... supposing that someone does pony up the money for it though...  if you think the ROI for a $279 Jalapeno is going to be difficulty to achieve, consider that to achieve similar performance to that monstrosity, you would need 20 Jalapenos for $279 appiece. So... $5,580 from BFL versus $90,000 from Bitfury?!?

VMC? Pre-order now. They're talking to a Major Semiconductor Company about actually making their chips, which may or may not perform as they hope.

Yes, they're pushing into the next generation, one of the three is selling something almost at the price level of GPU's, while the other two involve the same leap of faith to be made here as others did for BFL. Maybe their launches will go off without a hitch. Probably, in fact. BFL's low price points, while great for the community (the ones that could get them, at least) meant that they took in TONS of orders. So VMC and Bitfury might have less difficulty fulfilling because they've priced their gear at a level that insures the volume of their sales will be much lower than Butterfly or ASICMiner.

End of the story is that BFL's products still have legs under them. And all the products that are supposed to relegate them to the dustbin seem to be in existance only on paper, if that.

At the end of the day, people who ordered butterfly's products early and receive them in the next few months will do fine. But people who ordered later in the process (April, May, June, July 2013), at current prices, likely never would have broken even, simply because of all the orders ahead of them would already be online.

Sorry for the ramble.

one things sure if the price makes any movements up or down, everyones projections go out the window.
SgtSpike
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August 12, 2013, 06:33:28 PM
 #2431


Ummm.... correlation, please.

The reason that the hashrate is going up like it is and that difficulty is about to make its biggest jump ever is because of BFL units hitting the market.

I know that's what they're telling their forum members, but you've seen the pictures of hundreds of thousands of Avalon chips sitting in boxes, right? Millions of them have been made and it's unlikely they're all sitting in customs.

Additionally, Bitfury chips have also started shipping.

Some of the network growth is BFL.  But claiming that it's ALL BFL is completely wishful thinking on the part of BFL users.

Yea, BFL users must be living under a rock if they believe the diff increase is primarily due to BFL.  Sure they take part but give me a break.   Look around, there are other ASIC companies releasing chips and units at a much higher rate than the public BFL information.   Sure, BFL could be mining the crap out of the network but that is not due to the ones they have shipped.
Who?  Who else is shipping all these TH/s of devices?

BitMinter has grown from ~8 TH/s to 19 TH/s in a matter of a few weeks.  A large number of top players in that pool are running BFL machinery.  WhitePhantom, cloudhashing, fefox, mralbi, fpga1, SgtSpike, forabit... and those are just the names I recognize.  The top 50 could all be running on BFL miners for all I know - ask them, if you want!  But certainly, if there are other companies releasing chips and units at a much higher rate than BFL, then why do we not see users running those other company's miners at the top of the list?  Why are all the top users at BitMinter running BFL machines?

Everyone loves to bash on BFL without any proof to back it up.
WastedLTC
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August 12, 2013, 06:36:44 PM
 #2432


Yes, if BTC/USD stays around $100, then even at 10x todays difficulty (370 million rather than 37 million), a Jalapeno will generate $55 per month. But difficulty is not that high yet, so they're in much better positions today. For instance, say next difficulty jump is to 55 million. A Jalapeno will earn $420 in a month.


your returns are way off..   are you calculating for a 5 GH/s Jalapeno.   Today that returns $213 per month.  In 24 hours, that return will drop by 36%.  New value = $136 for the next 2 weeks.  Lets say diff goes up 25% next time.  that will drop the rate down to $102.

So if you got a Jalapeno today hashing at 5 Ghs, you would get closer to a total of $126 in a month! (and that is getting it today)  

Very far from your $420 a month.

creativex
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August 12, 2013, 06:39:20 PM
 #2433

There's too many variables.

Correct. The biggest for bfl pre-order customers being...*when* will I finally get the gear I paid for?

Quote
Bitfury? They list a $90,000 miner that does 110 GH/s. Yeah, I'm sure a lot of people are lining up for that one... supposing that someone does pony up the money for it though...  if you think the ROI for a $279 Jalapeno is going to be difficulty to achieve, consider that to achieve similar performance to that monstrosity, you would need 20 Jalapenos for $279 appiece. So... $5,580 from BFL versus $90,000 from Bitfury?!?

What the heck are you talking about? Bitfury is $8k for 400Gh/s for October delivery. More ominous for bfl pre-order customers is that they have products sold for delivery in late August. As in *THIS* month and their efficiency is far better than BFL's.

----------------------------------------------------------

Do not listen to lucasjkr. I don't know what his game is, but he's grossly mistaken in his assertions. This is the beginning of a cut-throat ASIC hardware price war between multiple vendors and bfl pre-order customers are being held hostage and victimized by an unscrupulous band of crooks.

Chargeback now if you're able.


WastedLTC
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August 12, 2013, 06:41:54 PM
 #2434


Ummm.... correlation, please.

The reason that the hashrate is going up like it is and that difficulty is about to make its biggest jump ever is because of BFL units hitting the market.

I know that's what they're telling their forum members, but you've seen the pictures of hundreds of thousands of Avalon chips sitting in boxes, right? Millions of them have been made and it's unlikely they're all sitting in customs.

Additionally, Bitfury chips have also started shipping.

Some of the network growth is BFL.  But claiming that it's ALL BFL is completely wishful thinking on the part of BFL users.

Yea, BFL users must be living under a rock if they believe the diff increase is primarily due to BFL.  Sure they take part but give me a break.   Look around, there are other ASIC companies releasing chips and units at a much higher rate than the public BFL information.   Sure, BFL could be mining the crap out of the network but that is not due to the ones they have shipped.
Who?  Who else is shipping all these TH/s of devices?

BitMinter has grown from ~8 TH/s to 19 TH/s in a matter of a few weeks.  A large number of top players in that pool are running BFL machinery.  WhitePhantom, cloudhashing, fefox, mralbi, fpga1, SgtSpike, forabit... and those are just the names I recognize.  The top 50 could all be running on BFL miners for all I know - ask them, if you want!  But certainly, if there are other companies releasing chips and units at a much higher rate than BFL, then why do we not see users running those other company's miners at the top of the list?  Why are all the top users at BitMinter running BFL machines?

Everyone loves to bash on BFL without any proof to back it up.

You are not serious, are you?  BitFury has units online right now.  The pool increased 3 TH in the past day.  (https://ghash.io/).  They are working on adding 100TH.  You also have ASICMiner adding huge volume (much higher than BFL).   Don't forget about 600 Avalon machines turning on which is 45+ TH.

What BFL is shipping isn't putting a dent in the hashing rate and if you don't have your unit now, you will never get your money out of it.

lucasjkr
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August 12, 2013, 06:43:20 PM
 #2435

I went here:
http://www.bitfury.org

that's what's listed.

Ultimately, though, at the end of the day, I'd vote that the whole ASIC arms race has done zero for Bitcoin. Everyone's spending enormous sums of money to fight over a shrinking pie. We all might as well have stayed on CPUs.
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August 12, 2013, 06:49:43 PM
 #2436

The correct url is

http://www.bitfurystrikesback.com/shop/

but even these prices are not all that great. These are in line with BFL's current prices. Yes the chips are more efficient, but the idea that these products at this price are a BFL killer is flawed.
WastedLTC
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August 12, 2013, 06:50:15 PM
 #2437

I went here:
http://www.bitfury.org

that's what's listed.

Ultimately, though, at the end of the day, I'd vote that the whole ASIC arms race has done zero for Bitcoin. Everyone's spending enormous sums of money to fight over a shrinking pie. We all might as well have stayed on CPUs.

Wrong site.  https://www.megabigpower.com/shop

And yes, this is a constant level'ing up for the same slice.   The same thing would happen with CPUs.  You would have huge investments in the best CPU and each time a new CPU came out-- people would upgrade.   I think the ASIC game is great for BTC and this race will only last a year and then it will be over.  We are at a huge tipping point right now with the amount of ASIC producers.  

We needed more than BFL and Avalon for consumer units.  They totally messed up the entire market.  Once a ASIC producer can manufacture units without preorder-- things will level off and none of these companies will move the market and cause so many issues.  The hashing rate will level off and will become predictable again.  

 
creativex
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August 12, 2013, 06:50:59 PM
 #2438


WastedLTC
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August 12, 2013, 06:53:05 PM
 #2439

The correct url is

http://www.bitfurystrikesback.com/shop/

but even these prices are not all that great. These are in line with BFL's current prices. Yes the chips are more efficient, but the idea that these products at this price are a BFL killer is flawed.

September will have $17 per Gigahash units online from KNC and October will be $15 per Gs from BitFury.   From there price per gh/s will drop under 10.   Under 10 might not be profitable either if things get too crazy. BFL's price is 50 per ghs.

Bitfury released that price for August since they knew u could get 100% of your unit paid for in the first month.  AND THEY ACTUALLY RELEASED.
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August 12, 2013, 06:53:27 PM
 #2440

...

Running through the numbers at Bitcoinx's calculator (http://www.bitcoinx.com/profit/)

...

Check http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/

If you have one now - It pays off in a few months ... then electricity costs come back to bit you.

We all need BTC/fiat to go up of we're losing money.  Seems to me the minings days are behind us and the trading and business development days are upon us.
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