Butterflylabs Huge SCAM

[creativex]

Unfortunately, BFL crooks have unequivocally showed us that Bitcoin is not the right currency for commerce.

Actually I think bfl has demonstrated to us that pre-orders are a huge risk and that crooks steal from people. Blaming the method of payment doesn't make any sense.

CC chargebacks and paypal clawing money back from allegedly non-compliant sellers is great if you wish to encourage people to act like lemmings. Everyone pays for this "insurance" policy in the form of higher fiat transaction costs. Sure it's fun to say as a buyer that PP roxxors, but when you're a seller and scammers are using paypal to receive both the goods AND steal back the agreed upon compensation it's not so great anymore. Bitcoin removes these shenanigans by putting the risk firmly where it belonged in the first place. People need to take responsibility for their own reckless decisions.

[cosmicvoyager]

If you do not start mining within about a month you will not be able to make a profit and soon after will not even be able to break even. The difficulty almost doublles each month. Do the math. http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/

If Butterfly Labs has been mining bitcoins with their manufactured units instead of shipping them to customers, a class action lawsuit needs be filed for all the money made with *our* units. Customers ordered units about a year ago when you could mine $1000 a month. Butterfly Labs has waited until a profit can no longer be made to start shipping. They are also breakng the law selling used hardware as new.

A thread needs to be started for everyone who has ordered from them, and a website. You are owed the money you would have made without the delays that they made instead if that is what they have been doing. They have committed fraud.

1 - Does anyone know of a website for class action lawsuits?
2 - An attorney(s) need to be chosen. Does anyone know class action lawsuit attorney?

[darkmule]

i don't think it ever was or is a good method of payment online.  It is great for privacy and wealth storage but not for handing out loans which is basically what a pre-order is.

From a vendor standpoint, it is a perfect medium of exchange.  The seller can be entirely assured of being paid.  Unfortunately, from the buyer perspective, the non-repudiation aspect means you have to trust the vendor, though the vendor doesn't have to trust you.  This is nothing unusual in payment contexts.  After all, cash money is just like this (unless there is a very good counterfeiter out there). 

The fact is that using Bitcoin requires a bit of intelligence on the user end.

[jeffrey159]

luckily i didn't buy bought anything from there

[sasuke234]

luckily i didn't buy bought anything from there

yeah, it saved you a lot of headaches lol!

[charleshoskinson]

You know I just realized that I have still not received my miner that I ordered in April. Lol, Josh you're a funny man.

[User705]

i don't think it ever was or is a good method of payment online.  It is great for privacy and wealth storage but not for handing out loans which is basically what a pre-order is.

From a vendor standpoint, it is a perfect medium of exchange.  The seller can be entirely assured of being paid.  Unfortunately, from the buyer perspective, the non-repudiation aspect means you have to trust the vendor, though the vendor doesn't have to trust you.  This is nothing unusual in payment contexts.  After all, cash money is just like this (unless there is a very good counterfeiter out there). 

The fact is that using Bitcoin requires a bit of intelligence on the user end.

It's basically the polar opposite of the current payment methods so it creates its own set of issues.  Also don't forget cash generally is face to face and bitcoin is like cash by mail which isn't exactly a common payment method now is it.

[marcotheminer]

Damn BFL, my friend was going to buy one!
So all BFL products will never be shipped to a buyer?

[stevenf]

As many I also have not received my (March) order (Jalapeno).

When they do ship I will have to pay import/custom tax (I live in the Netherlands), I expect that to be about $80. As the Jalapeno is most likely not going to return my money, accepting the package and paying the tax. I don't really feel like accepting it.

Any idea what would happen? Would customs destroy it, or send it back? If sent back will there be charges and if so, who would need to pay that?

[DemocraticRepublicOfDave]

Hi All, long time lurker here.

Just faxed my chargeback form + supporting documentation to the bank yesterday (for a 25Gh Miner order date 05-Apr-2013).  I will update on what happens with this.

The thing with BFL is, I would have probably held on longer if there customer service wasn't so appalling.  However I still can't quite believe the sort of responses I see from BFL employees on their forum. It's got to the point where each night I and my wife have a chuckle at the latest gems posted from them on the site.

Cheers

Democratic Republic Of Dave.

[honky1492]

Any idea what would happen? Would customs destroy it, or send it back? If sent back will there be charges and if so, who would need to pay that?

Definitively not you. Your not responsible for things someone send you.

And do refund 

[stevenf]

Any idea what would happen? Would customs destroy it, or send it back? If sent back will there be charges and if so, who would need to pay that?

Definitively not you. Your not responsible for things someone send you.

And do refund 

Thanks! I paid with Paypal so refund will be very difficult, if not impossible. Wish I had paid with creditcard, read that some people are successfully getting refunds from the creditcard company.

[Derica]

If you can't get a refund any other way, you might consider small claims court, which is specifically designed for small problems like this (<$10,000).

In most states, you don't need a lawyer.  In fact, in many states you can't use a lawyer.  Also, as a buyer of a product, you can file in the state where you purchased.  In other words, you don't need to file in the state where BFL is located.  

The process is fairly straight forward.  1) Send BFL a letter of intent to sue.  2) File with the small claims court.  3) Serve the party you are suing.  4) Collect your Evidence. (Sales contract, order status, etc)  5) Go to the court hearing.  

If the party you are suing fails to show at the hearing, then you may win by default.  This works well for parties that just don't bother to respond to their customers.

This process creates a problem for the one being sued because if claims like this are filed in multiple states, it may be cheaper for them to settle then to go to all the hearings.  Sometimes they will settle after the letter of intent is received because they realize that the process of fighting the claim will be more expensive than settling the claim.  But if they try to fight the claim, they will lose anyway because they haven't delivered their product or issued a refund.

[Puppet]

Thanks! I paid with Paypal so refund will be very difficult, if not impossible. Wish I had paid with creditcard, read that some people are successfully getting refunds from the creditcard company.

You should be fine with paypal, even if you didnt use the CC:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=295187.0

[fiddelingones]

Thanks! I paid with Paypal so refund will be very difficult, if not impossible. Wish I had paid with creditcard, read that some people are successfully getting refunds from the creditcard company.

You should be fine with paypal, even if you didnt use the CC:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=295187.0

Refunds with PP are fine. Much worse are BTC orders 

[cosmicvoyager]

Damn BFL, my friend was going to buy one!
So all BFL products will never be shipped to a buyer?

They will be shipped when you can no longer even mine enough to break even.

[8bitslacker]

If you can't get a refund any other way, you might consider small claims court, which is specifically designed for small problems like this (<$10,000).

In most states, you don't need a lawyer.  In fact, in many states you can't use a lawyer.  Also, as a buyer of a product, you can file in the state where you purchased.  In other words, you don't need to file in the state where BFL is located.  

The process is fairly straight forward.  1) Send BFL a letter of intent to sue.  2) File with the small claims court.  3) Serve the party you are suing.  4) Collect your Evidence. (Sales contract, order status, etc)  5) Go to the court hearing.  

If the party you are suing fails to show at the hearing, then you may win by default.  This works well for parties that just don't bother to respond to their customers.

This process creates a problem for the one being sued because if claims like this are filed in multiple states, it may be cheaper for them to settle then to go to all the hearings.  Sometimes they will settle after the letter of intent is received because they realize that the process of fighting the claim will be more expensive than settling the claim.  But if they try to fight the claim, they will lose anyway because they haven't delivered their product or issued a refund.

The only issue with small claims court is it does not force the defendant to pay. It only issues a judgement against the defendant, so it is still the person who sues responsibility to recover damages. At least it would show they have a judgement against them.

[User705]

Maybe they pay the judgement with monarchs.  LOL

[zubelutte]

Preorder business model is only good for trusted big companies. I guess many people got tricked to BTC preorder 

[Puppet]

Preorder business model is only good for trusted big companies. I guess many people got tricked to BTC preorder  

Preorder is fine if the law is not broken:

When you learn that you cannot ship on time, you must decide whether you will ever be able to ship the order. If you decide that you cannot, you must promptly cancel the order and make a full refund.

If you decide you can ship the order later, you must seek the customer’s consent to the delay. You may use whatever means you wish to do this -- such as the telephone, fax, mail, or email -- as long as you notify the customer of the delay reasonably quickly. The customer must have sufficient advance notification to make a meaningful decision to consent to the delay or cancel the order.

...

In any event, no notification to the customer can take longer than the time you originally promised or, if no time was promised, 30 days. If you cannot ship the order or provide the notice within this time, you must cancel the order and make a prompt refund.

....

In seeking your customer’s consent to delay, the first delay notice you provide to the customer (the "delay option" notice) must include:

a definite revised shipment date or, if unknown, a statement that you are unable to provide a revised shipment date;
a statement that, if the customer chooses not to wait, the customer can cancel the order and obtain a full and prompt refund; and
some means for the customer to choose to cancel at your expense (e.g., by providing a postage prepaid reply card or toll-free telephone number).
the following information when you cannot provide a revised shipping date:
the reason for the delay, and
a statement that, if the customer agrees to the indefinite delay, the customer may cancel the order any time until you ship the merchandise.

http://www.business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule