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Author Topic: Butterflylabs Huge SCAM  (Read 411729 times)
becoin
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August 23, 2013, 12:39:21 PM
 #2541

It's just amusing how the OP posted a heavy topic where he is not interested in replying in is own thread! Just interesting. Roll Eyes
Just interesting how BFL sockpuppets have questions to the OP but don't have questions to the BFL crooks.
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August 25, 2013, 05:28:28 AM
 #2542

Seriously, your analogy is very flawed.  BFL made no promises about the network hash rate, or about what percentage of the overall network hashrate you would own.  They only promised to deliver a particular hashrate, and that is exactly what they have been delivering.  I didn't order 0.03% of the network - I ordered 60 GH/s.  Any risk as to what difficulty or price might be in the future is a risk on the buyer's part.

Flawed analogy or not, delivery time was a material term in the contract between the parties.  The value of the item is and remains directly tied to delivery date, and they lied about the delivery date, claiming two or three weeks for damn near a year straight.  People would not have signed up to preorder if BFL had told the truth about delivery time, which is apparently that they will deliver the bare minimum necessary to prevent a flood of refund demands, whenever the hell they feel like it.

Nobody forced BFL to make delivery time claims that were, at the absolute best, unrealistic.  They specifically made those claims of delivery date in order to attract customers and put money in their own pockets.  People who fell for those claims got suckered.  They would have been mining for months had they purchased Avalon instead.

Now, we can sit around and argue that the relatively sophisticated customer base ASIC miners have simply could not have realistically believed these delivery date claims.  In retrospect, they should have obviously been bullshit even at the time to anyone with any sense.  I'm not defending the intelligence of people who committed any significant amount of money to preorders from BFL, especially since them acting like a bunch of noxious assclowns is not exactly anything new, and I really have to question the judgment of anyone who EVER thought this bunch of losers looked legit.

Josh Zerlan has done for PR what Atilla the Hun did for good table manners.

But still, people got at least partly ripped off.  Putting myself in the shoes of someone who put down money on these things, I probably wouldn't sue if I got my rig and broke even, made a slight profit, or only lost a little.  I'd just chalk it up as a life lesson and move on.  Even if I set up practice as a lawyer suing over shit like this, that's probably what I'd advise, though I'd gladly roll the dice on a suit in one of the states where a really juicy Consumer Fraud Act (like Jersey has) allows for something like triple damages.  In some jurisdictions, fee shifting is mandatory for the successful plaintiff.  That means even if the client wins $100, the attorney gets paid whatever ridiculous hourly is considered "reasonable" in the state.  Note:  "reasonable" is a word that has a specific legal meaning, and the meaning is usually something like "batshit insane" in normal people language.

Frankly, though, I'd want to see what BFL actually owns before doing anything like that.  I'd be amazed if this entity is even solvent.  Their trickle of deliveries, constant desperate attempts to raise new cash, and utterly shady cast of characters, including career criminals like Sonny, strongly suggest a corporation that exists solely as an alter ego of some kind, and is solely incorporated in an attempt to keep any assets these clowns have safe from judgment.  You'd probably have to do something like "pierce the corporate veil" (Google it) to get any money, and unless it was a lot, it would be completely not worth it.

But the idea this isn't a scam simply because they didn't explicitly advertise you'll get some fixed percentage of the hashrate of the whole network is utter bullshit.  They made claims they didn't have to make about delivery date that are obvious lies and they had to know they were lies at the time.  They solely made these claims to get other people's money.  Those people entrusted their money to these scumbags, choosing them over other operations that. . .well. . .were making at least slightly less false claims about delivery date (this is where a lawsuit runs into trouble because almost all the others were making bullshit claims and BFL just ended up the World Champion of Bullshit).  

Anyway, other than the really low-hanging fruit of sales to states with really consumer friendly fraud acts like I mentioned, they'll probably skate on this.  But it isn't legal.  And it isn't nice.  And they're a bunch of dicks.

I would not say this about Avalon or other ASIC sellers.  There's been a whole lot of bullshit going on and Avalon are not exactly a bunch of paladins.  But none of the others compounded their shipping delays with pissing in the face of the customers whose money they were sitting on by sending out a disgusting troll to basically have a scat orgy all over their face.  That's really why I want to see them razed to the ground, in a purely metaphorical sense of course.

Most of what BFL did is, while legally questionable, susceptible to a number of good defenses.  And isn't legally likely to be profitable to sue over, because a good defense lawyer could raise all kinds of defenses, none of which I'm going to mention.  It is no surprise to me that a career criminal like Sonny who doesn't want to end up back behind bars would go to a more subtle scam after his less subtle scam got him locked up with Bubba.

I don't have a horse in the race in terms of getting ripped off by them.  But they've given a horrible face to Bitcoin, and this pisses me off.  Any casual observer who had no previous opinion of Bitcoin and saw this would quite likely conclude that Bitcoin is a currency used by criminals, scammers and the scum of the Earth.  Frankly, that well describes the principals of BFL.  Scumbags.  I don't like that.
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August 25, 2013, 05:45:03 AM
 #2543

+1

A wall of text worth reading.
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August 25, 2013, 09:25:17 AM
 #2544

The 600gh/s model just came out at the price of $4680 so I believe for those that have received the 5gh/s model at $274, 25gh/s model at $1249, 50gh/s model at $2499, and 500gh/s model at $22484 must feel that what they've brought is useless now. Interesting thing is that according to calculations the product is suppose to break even in 9 days, which is a huge change to the original models. Generation 1 models were suppose to break even in 5 months when they were released but by the the time people start receiving the product it would take more than 11 months. So keep that in mind the calculations now are the calculations NOW but what might happen in the future is unpredictable. Who knows? Maybe one day the guys from BFL will announce they are Satoshi Nakamoto and they were making money of people on mining hardware all along? Note: the above is just my opinion, if you disagree, then disagree......
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August 25, 2013, 10:18:03 AM
 #2545

Quote
Maybe one day the guys from BFL will announce they are Satoshi Nakamoto

I was totally thinking Josh was Gerald Casale from Devo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jadvt7CbH1o

Because I tell you no one is ever going to get satisfaction with BFL.

The revolution begins with the mind and ends with the heart. Knowledge for all, accessible to all and shared by all
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August 25, 2013, 10:33:56 PM
 #2546

Let's see, I played 63 btc ($1299) for a single 13/14 months ago... a refund would pay me 10 btc at best. Excellent deal! I'll just hold out and Holt they deliver a 17 July order within 2 weeks...... where have I heard that before? Hahaha

So true. It is effectiely a scam because all I can do is wait and HOPE for delivery
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August 25, 2013, 10:55:08 PM
 #2547

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Maybe one day the guys from BFL will announce they are Satoshi Nakamoto

I was totally thinking Josh was Gerald Casale from Devo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jadvt7CbH1o

Because I tell you no one is ever going to get satisfaction with BFL.

One of my favorite things about Devo is the best Devo song ever was actually written by Weird Al.  And this is it.  And I think BFL took the advice in it a little too seriously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMhwddNQSWQ
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August 25, 2013, 10:58:31 PM
 #2548

Are you implying that we should file a class action lawsuit against BFL to win our money back and make Bitcoin look a little more organized?

I'm in!

Actually, no.  Unless you know good class action counsel.  Even to file such a suit, you generally need a lawyer with previous experience in such cases because just to get a class action lawsuit into a court, you need to certify both the class and the lawyer as being qualified to represent such a class. 

Also, in an alarming number of class action cases, the only ones who make any money out of it are the lawyers.  Class members get something ridiculous, like a buck or a bunch of coupons from the very company that ripped them off in the first place.  Do you want to wait a few years for a nickel or a certificate for $10 off a vaporware "Monarch" unit?
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August 26, 2013, 01:29:21 AM
 #2549

Head to the legal forum and look for M Santori... he takes bitcoin.

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August 27, 2013, 09:42:49 AM
 #2550

https://www.dropbox.com/s/eh22z6r1u8fzrdn/Screen%20Shot%202013-08-27%20at%202.05.41%20AM.png

Winning.
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August 27, 2013, 12:23:01 PM
Last edit: August 27, 2013, 01:22:51 PM by TooDumbForBitcoin
 #2551

Based on today’s 8.83 minutes between found blocks …..
If Bitcoin value does not increase for 22 months, you will gross $544 from mining (including $0.03 on day 678), and pay $224 for electricity over the next 22 months, based on $0.06/kWh, 6W/Gh/s chip power draw, and 200W additional rig power draw.
Your $274 would be $574 22 months from now if you had bought BTC instead.
If Bitcoin value doubles every year, you will earn $671 from mining in the next 22 months, and your $274 would be worth $1288 had you bought BTC.
Your vendor owes you $222 today for your loss of network hashrate percentage between your order day and your delivery day.
Your vendor earned $26 in BTC over the 110-day shipping delay from the rise in BTC value over that period.
Your vendor earned $4.82 each day he tested your miner.

If you had received your miner the day after you bought it, you would gross $2500 in 22 months from mining, assuming no rise in BTC value over those 22 months.

EDIT:  Show electricity assumptions, clarify gross mining earnings, add one-day delivery earnings.



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August 28, 2013, 03:08:01 PM
 #2552

They have shipped units, how is it a scam lol

But they shipped after 1 year. Do you think it is ok for any product delivery?

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August 28, 2013, 03:25:48 PM
 #2553

Although they are delivering the devices but they actually scammed with us. When we paid for our devices difficulty of BTC was low but now it is very very high.
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August 28, 2013, 04:19:31 PM
 #2554

Maybe someone can help with this

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=283081.0

I'm interested to see if they are actually stopping people from signing up AND HIDING THREADS! Seem's pretty conclusive from where im sitting!
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August 29, 2013, 01:06:36 AM
 #2555


rofl

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August 29, 2013, 02:43:05 AM
 #2556


Huh?  They got a refund on a jalapeno, how does that make them an idiot?

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August 29, 2013, 06:20:30 AM
 #2557

Sorry Floridabear, your math is off.  At $0.15 kw/h power cost, a Single is still profitable to a worthwhile degree even at 900 million difficulty.  It's going to be a bit of time before we see 900 million difficulty, from 19 million now.

You really have to define "a bit of time." I defined it clearly in my post, and my math is not off based on the assumptions I posted. Please don't accuse me of being wrong when I provide all of the assumptions I used for the calculations, unless you've done the math with those assumptions yourself (and you can prove I did them wrong).

My math is correct according to the assumptions I gave and I stand by it. A 50 GH single will only ever produce about 28 BTC ($2800) if delivered in September and my assumptions prove correct.

If you want to argue about 18% increases every retarget being too pessimistic from Sept '13 to March '14 (when all currently available BFL devices become unprofitable at $0.11/KWh) , that's fine, but don't just say "your math is off." However, I don't think 18% is at all unreasonable. When GPUs were rolling out, we saw difficulty go from 19 to 9000 in about 5 months. And that's an order of magnitude greater than the change we're talking about (19M to 900M). If ASICs come on line at that rate, we'll be at 9 billion by February (except that none are profitable there, so it won't happen). But I don't think 900M is unreasonable by Jan 1. Granted we will see some leveling off after that as less efficient ASICs become unprofitable. But if 28 nm products are real and rolling out, they will quickly obsolete everything less efficient. This is a pretty inevitable path we're going down.

My entire point is that delays are extremely costly going forward. Progress is relentless.

Damn, I hate being right all the time. Well, actually, I wasn't "right"--I was too optimistic. A 50 GH single delivered in September now only will make about $1600 over its useful (but unprofitable) life.

We will almost certainly hit 900M difficulty in January.

There is now no profitable BFL device that you can currently order, assuming a 1 month or longer wait. That includes Monarch.

Of course, there isn't any profitable ASIC that you can currently order, as far as I can tell. If you can get an ASICMINER blade, that might make a few BTC.
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August 29, 2013, 06:27:35 AM
 #2558

Sorry Floridabear, your math is off.  At $0.15 kw/h power cost, a Single is still profitable to a worthwhile degree even at 900 million difficulty.  It's going to be a bit of time before we see 900 million difficulty, from 19 million now.

You really have to define "a bit of time." I defined it clearly in my post, and my math is not off based on the assumptions I posted. Please don't accuse me of being wrong when I provide all of the assumptions I used for the calculations, unless you've done the math with those assumptions yourself (and you can prove I did them wrong).

My math is correct according to the assumptions I gave and I stand by it. A 50 GH single will only ever produce about 28 BTC ($2800) if delivered in September and my assumptions prove correct.

If you want to argue about 18% increases every retarget being too pessimistic from Sept '13 to March '14 (when all currently available BFL devices become unprofitable at $0.11/KWh) , that's fine, but don't just say "your math is off." However, I don't think 18% is at all unreasonable. When GPUs were rolling out, we saw difficulty go from 19 to 9000 in about 5 months. And that's an order of magnitude greater than the change we're talking about (19M to 900M). If ASICs come on line at that rate, we'll be at 9 billion by February (except that none are profitable there, so it won't happen). But I don't think 900M is unreasonable by Jan 1. Granted we will see some leveling off after that as less efficient ASICs become unprofitable. But if 28 nm products are real and rolling out, they will quickly obsolete everything less efficient. This is a pretty inevitable path we're going down.

My entire point is that delays are extremely costly going forward. Progress is relentless.

Damn, I hate being right all the time. Well, actually, I wasn't "right"--I was too optimistic. A 50 GH single delivered in September now only will make about $1600 over its useful (but unprofitable) life.

We will almost certainly hit 900M difficulty in January.

There is now no profitable BFL device that you can currently order, assuming a 1 month or longer wait. That includes Monarch.

Of course, there isn't any profitable ASIC that you can currently order, as far as I can tell. If you can get an ASICMINER blade, that might make a few BTC.

And the laughs just keep on coming!

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August 29, 2013, 06:48:38 AM
 #2559

Get this one, I got in bfl labs forum for a moment in the end. I went to the thread where someone as had there bit stamp & my box accounts hacked. I wanted to post about oclhashcat which can crack up to 55 character (not letter) pass codes in less than 2 days on a ati 6990! Yes, that means it can brute force just about anything! Its a total game changer in many ways!

Anyways, I proceeded to post but it wouldn't let me. I guess when bfl go home they turn the auto mod up! Anyways, I went onto the shout box and said about oclhashcat and I was then abused by Ivan and grbgr.... whatever this fools name is. Not only did they not want to listen to some good advice but they continued to slander and banned me for basically wanting to help the dude who had his accounts hacked!

When you got arse lickking mis information spreading shit spreaders like these, who needs to moderate the forums! A miriade ofbrainwashed zombies everywhere! Why do iI always feel I'm a really the main character in walking dead these day? O right yes, cause I'm surrounded by sheeple!

Word of warning though, oclhashcat is some serious bit of software! The only way avoid it is none traditional characters!!!

You've been warned!
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September 01, 2013, 02:23:34 PM
 #2560

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