Health and Religion

[BADecker]

Islam as a perfect and complete religion. Has established principles in guarding the balance of the human body. Among the ways Islam maintains health by maintaining hygiene and implementing syariat wudlu and bathing routinely for every Muslim

Stoning people to death is far from perfect.

Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Temujin, and many other murders did what they did because they didn't have religion. The few executions done by people in the name of religion, were done by liars who only said they were doing it for religious purposes. When religious peoples protect themselves by killing others who are harming them, or when they do it to protect other people who are being harmed, there is righteousness in that kind of killing.

[1714131782]

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[1714131782]

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[Astargath]

Islam as a perfect and complete religion. Has established principles in guarding the balance of the human body. Among the ways Islam maintains health by maintaining hygiene and implementing syariat wudlu and bathing routinely for every Muslim

Stoning people to death is far from perfect.

Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Temujin, and many other murders did what they did because they didn't have religion. The few executions done by people in the name of religion, were done by liars who only said they were doing it for religious purposes. When religious peoples protect themselves by killing others who are harming them, or when they do it to protect other people who are being harmed, there is righteousness in that kind of killing.

''what they did because they didn't have religion.'' Are you saying they murdered people because they didn't have a religion? ''The few executions done by people in the name of religion'' Few, lol. Crusades, Inquisition not to mention how many times god himself murders people. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Examples_of_God_personally_killing_people
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com.es/2008/04/bibles-greatest-massacres.html
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Massacres_in_the_name_of_a_peaceful_faith

[BADecker]

Islam as a perfect and complete religion. Has established principles in guarding the balance of the human body. Among the ways Islam maintains health by maintaining hygiene and implementing syariat wudlu and bathing routinely for every Muslim

Stoning people to death is far from perfect.

Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Temujin, and many other murders did what they did because they didn't have religion. The few executions done by people in the name of religion, were done by liars who only said they were doing it for religious purposes. When religious peoples protect themselves by killing others who are harming them, or when they do it to protect other people who are being harmed, there is righteousness in that kind of killing.

''what they did because they didn't have religion.'' Are you saying they murdered people because they didn't have a religion? ''The few executions done by people in the name of religion'' Few, lol. Crusades, Inquisition not to mention how many times god himself murders people. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Examples_of_God_personally_killing_people
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com.es/2008/04/bibles-greatest-massacres.html
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Massacres_in_the_name_of_a_peaceful_faith

Do you mean you aren't allowed to do with your property what you will? Do you mean you can't put your dog down if he is sickly and old? How much more God, Who owns everything? I mean, when He puts unbelievers to death, He is keeping them from sinning more, so that they have more to pay for in their eternity in Hell. Such a loving God that He is even blessing those who hate Him.

Stalin alone killed off more than the Crusades could have thought of killing; and that often in the name of paranoia, not religion. And that is only Stalin. The 4 names I mentioned are only a handful of evil people who murder for greed rather than religion. Greed and selfishness killed way more people ever than religion. And most of the time religion stopped the killing.

You have things a bit backward, as usual.

[Astargath]

Islam as a perfect and complete religion. Has established principles in guarding the balance of the human body. Among the ways Islam maintains health by maintaining hygiene and implementing syariat wudlu and bathing routinely for every Muslim

Stoning people to death is far from perfect.

Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Temujin, and many other murders did what they did because they didn't have religion. The few executions done by people in the name of religion, were done by liars who only said they were doing it for religious purposes. When religious peoples protect themselves by killing others who are harming them, or when they do it to protect other people who are being harmed, there is righteousness in that kind of killing.

''what they did because they didn't have religion.'' Are you saying they murdered people because they didn't have a religion? ''The few executions done by people in the name of religion'' Few, lol. Crusades, Inquisition not to mention how many times god himself murders people. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Examples_of_God_personally_killing_people
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com.es/2008/04/bibles-greatest-massacres.html
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Massacres_in_the_name_of_a_peaceful_faith

Do you mean you aren't allowed to do with your property what you will? Do you mean you can't put your dog down if he is sickly and old? How much more God, Who owns everything? I mean, when He puts unbelievers to death, He is keeping them from sinning more, so that they have more to pay for in their eternity in Hell. Such a loving God that He is even blessing those who hate Him.

Stalin alone killed off more than the Crusades could have thought of killing; and that often in the name of paranoia, not religion. And that is only Stalin. The 4 names I mentioned are only a handful of evil people who murder for greed rather than religion. Greed and selfishness killed way more people ever than religion. And most of the time religion stopped the killing.

You have things a bit backward, as usual.

So basically you are saying it's ok for god to kill anyone anywhere anytime because we are his property. I can put my dog down if he is sick and dying, on the other hand god and others in the bible killed people not because they were sick but because they wanted to. ''He puts unbelievers to death, He is keeping them from sinning more'' Isn't that taking away their freedom that you keep mentioning? Then why bother creating them at all, it would be better to not create them, that would keep them from sinning at all, wouldn't it?

''Such a loving God that He is even blessing those who hate Him.'' He could also not punish unbelievers at all if he was such a loving god, he could take everyone to heaven if he wanted to, he could also destroy hell, why does he need to torture people anyways? Your logic is absolutely flawed my friend.

[BADecker]

Islam as a perfect and complete religion. Has established principles in guarding the balance of the human body. Among the ways Islam maintains health by maintaining hygiene and implementing syariat wudlu and bathing routinely for every Muslim

Stoning people to death is far from perfect.

Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Temujin, and many other murders did what they did because they didn't have religion. The few executions done by people in the name of religion, were done by liars who only said they were doing it for religious purposes. When religious peoples protect themselves by killing others who are harming them, or when they do it to protect other people who are being harmed, there is righteousness in that kind of killing.

''what they did because they didn't have religion.'' Are you saying they murdered people because they didn't have a religion? ''The few executions done by people in the name of religion'' Few, lol. Crusades, Inquisition not to mention how many times god himself murders people. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Examples_of_God_personally_killing_people
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com.es/2008/04/bibles-greatest-massacres.html
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Massacres_in_the_name_of_a_peaceful_faith

Do you mean you aren't allowed to do with your property what you will? Do you mean you can't put your dog down if he is sickly and old? How much more God, Who owns everything? I mean, when He puts unbelievers to death, He is keeping them from sinning more, so that they have more to pay for in their eternity in Hell. Such a loving God that He is even blessing those who hate Him.

Stalin alone killed off more than the Crusades could have thought of killing; and that often in the name of paranoia, not religion. And that is only Stalin. The 4 names I mentioned are only a handful of evil people who murder for greed rather than religion. Greed and selfishness killed way more people ever than religion. And most of the time religion stopped the killing.

You have things a bit backward, as usual.

So basically you are saying it's ok for god to kill anyone anywhere anytime because we are his property. I can put my dog down if he is sick and dying, on the other hand god and others in the bible killed people not because they were sick but because they wanted to. ''He puts unbelievers to death, He is keeping them from sinning more'' Isn't that taking away their freedom that you keep mentioning? Then why bother creating them at all, it would be better to not create them, that would keep them from sinning at all, wouldn't it?

I see you are backwards as usual.

Killing Christians sends them to Heaven where there is more joyful freedom than we can imagine in this life.

''Such a loving God that He is even blessing those who hate Him.'' He could also not punish unbelievers at all if he was such a loving god, he could take everyone to heaven if he wanted to, he could also destroy hell, why does he need to torture people anyways? Your logic is absolutely flawed my friend.

He punished His Son, Jesus, on the cross. Unbelievers punish themselves by not accepting Jesus salvation. Of course, since people can barely do anything at all - try growing another arm, sometime - it is God Who gives unbelievers the punishment that they are asking for... God the Great Giver... even though He would rather see the unbeliever choose salvation.

You are so backwards, you are simply stupid.

[BADecker]

Astargath, you are so backward that it's almost unbelievable. Are you trying to tell us that if God took your freedom to go to Hell away from you, you would complain to Him in Heaven, through eternity, about how unfair He was to take your freedom away from you? He isn't going to put up with your complaints in Heaven. You are making your choice. And it looks like you are choosing Hell. If you want freedom, choose Jesus salvation so that you can be free in the only place where joyful freedom will be able to be found... Heaven.

[Astargath]

Islam as a perfect and complete religion. Has established principles in guarding the balance of the human body. Among the ways Islam maintains health by maintaining hygiene and implementing syariat wudlu and bathing routinely for every Muslim

Stoning people to death is far from perfect.

Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Temujin, and many other murders did what they did because they didn't have religion. The few executions done by people in the name of religion, were done by liars who only said they were doing it for religious purposes. When religious peoples protect themselves by killing others who are harming them, or when they do it to protect other people who are being harmed, there is righteousness in that kind of killing.

''what they did because they didn't have religion.'' Are you saying they murdered people because they didn't have a religion? ''The few executions done by people in the name of religion'' Few, lol. Crusades, Inquisition not to mention how many times god himself murders people. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Examples_of_God_personally_killing_people
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com.es/2008/04/bibles-greatest-massacres.html
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Massacres_in_the_name_of_a_peaceful_faith

Do you mean you aren't allowed to do with your property what you will? Do you mean you can't put your dog down if he is sickly and old? How much more God, Who owns everything? I mean, when He puts unbelievers to death, He is keeping them from sinning more, so that they have more to pay for in their eternity in Hell. Such a loving God that He is even blessing those who hate Him.

Stalin alone killed off more than the Crusades could have thought of killing; and that often in the name of paranoia, not religion. And that is only Stalin. The 4 names I mentioned are only a handful of evil people who murder for greed rather than religion. Greed and selfishness killed way more people ever than religion. And most of the time religion stopped the killing.

You have things a bit backward, as usual.

So basically you are saying it's ok for god to kill anyone anywhere anytime because we are his property. I can put my dog down if he is sick and dying, on the other hand god and others in the bible killed people not because they were sick but because they wanted to. ''He puts unbelievers to death, He is keeping them from sinning more'' Isn't that taking away their freedom that you keep mentioning? Then why bother creating them at all, it would be better to not create them, that would keep them from sinning at all, wouldn't it?

I see you are backwards as usual.

Killing Christians sends them to Heaven where there is more joyful freedom than we can imagine in this life.

''Such a loving God that He is even blessing those who hate Him.'' He could also not punish unbelievers at all if he was such a loving god, he could take everyone to heaven if he wanted to, he could also destroy hell, why does he need to torture people anyways? Your logic is absolutely flawed my friend.

He punished His Son, Jesus, on the cross. Unbelievers punish themselves by not accepting Jesus salvation. Of course, since people can barely do anything at all - try growing another arm, sometime - it is God Who gives unbelievers the punishment that they are asking for... God the Great Giver... even though He would rather see the unbeliever choose salvation.

You are so backwards, you are simply stupid.

''when He puts unbelievers to death'' You said unbelievers not christians, why are you talking about christians now? ''He punished His Son, Jesus, on the cross.'' '' it is God Who gives unbelievers the punishment that they are asking for'' There is no reason to punish them after they die, no reason at all, only if your god is sadistic and likes to see people suffer.

[Astargath]

Astargath, you are so backward that it's almost unbelievable. Are you trying to tell us that if God took your freedom to go to Hell away from you, you would complain to Him in Heaven, through eternity, about how unfair He was to take your freedom away from you? He isn't going to put up with your complaints in Heaven. You are making your choice. And it looks like you are choosing Hell. If you want freedom, choose Jesus salvation so that you can be free in the only place where joyful freedom will be able to be found... Heaven.

'' You are making your choice. And it looks like you are choosing Hell. '' Why would anyone chose Hell? Should I just kill you in real life then since killing christians is ok because I send them to heaven?

[BADecker]

Astargath, you are so backward that it's almost unbelievable. Are you trying to tell us that if God took your freedom to go to Hell away from you, you would complain to Him in Heaven, through eternity, about how unfair He was to take your freedom away from you? He isn't going to put up with your complaints in Heaven. You are making your choice. And it looks like you are choosing Hell. If you want freedom, choose Jesus salvation so that you can be free in the only place where joyful freedom will be able to be found... Heaven.

'' You are making your choice. And it looks like you are choosing Hell. '' Why would anyone chose Hell? Should I just kill you in real life then since killing christians is ok because I send them to heaven?

Are you asking me why you are choosing Hell? You should explain it to all of us. Who knows it better than you?

The reason why God leaves Christians in this life is so that they can gain glory for themselves by bringing others to repentance. Kill anybody, and you are hardening yourself into going to Hell. Kill a Christian, and you send him to glory.

[BADecker]

Islam as a perfect and complete religion. Has established principles in guarding the balance of the human body. Among the ways Islam maintains health by maintaining hygiene and implementing syariat wudlu and bathing routinely for every Muslim

Stoning people to death is far from perfect.

Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Temujin, and many other murders did what they did because they didn't have religion. The few executions done by people in the name of religion, were done by liars who only said they were doing it for religious purposes. When religious peoples protect themselves by killing others who are harming them, or when they do it to protect other people who are being harmed, there is righteousness in that kind of killing.

''what they did because they didn't have religion.'' Are you saying they murdered people because they didn't have a religion? ''The few executions done by people in the name of religion'' Few, lol. Crusades, Inquisition not to mention how many times god himself murders people. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Examples_of_God_personally_killing_people
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com.es/2008/04/bibles-greatest-massacres.html
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Massacres_in_the_name_of_a_peaceful_faith

Do you mean you aren't allowed to do with your property what you will? Do you mean you can't put your dog down if he is sickly and old? How much more God, Who owns everything? I mean, when He puts unbelievers to death, He is keeping them from sinning more, so that they have more to pay for in their eternity in Hell. Such a loving God that He is even blessing those who hate Him.

Stalin alone killed off more than the Crusades could have thought of killing; and that often in the name of paranoia, not religion. And that is only Stalin. The 4 names I mentioned are only a handful of evil people who murder for greed rather than religion. Greed and selfishness killed way more people ever than religion. And most of the time religion stopped the killing.

You have things a bit backward, as usual.

So basically you are saying it's ok for god to kill anyone anywhere anytime because we are his property. I can put my dog down if he is sick and dying, on the other hand god and others in the bible killed people not because they were sick but because they wanted to. ''He puts unbelievers to death, He is keeping them from sinning more'' Isn't that taking away their freedom that you keep mentioning? Then why bother creating them at all, it would be better to not create them, that would keep them from sinning at all, wouldn't it?

I see you are backwards as usual.

Killing Christians sends them to Heaven where there is more joyful freedom than we can imagine in this life.

''Such a loving God that He is even blessing those who hate Him.'' He could also not punish unbelievers at all if he was such a loving god, he could take everyone to heaven if he wanted to, he could also destroy hell, why does he need to torture people anyways? Your logic is absolutely flawed my friend.

He punished His Son, Jesus, on the cross. Unbelievers punish themselves by not accepting Jesus salvation. Of course, since people can barely do anything at all - try growing another arm, sometime - it is God Who gives unbelievers the punishment that they are asking for... God the Great Giver... even though He would rather see the unbeliever choose salvation.

You are so backwards, you are simply stupid.

''when He puts unbelievers to death'' You said unbelievers not christians, why are you talking about christians now? ''He punished His Son, Jesus, on the cross.'' '' it is God Who gives unbelievers the punishment that they are asking for'' There is no reason to punish them after they die, no reason at all, only if your god is sadistic and likes to see people suffer.

You just read the answer to your question. Are you so blind that you can't see the answer right next to the question it answers? Unbelievers are asking for punishment when they reject the salvation God offers. Don't you want God to give you the things you ask for? Become a believer so that you stop asking for damnation. Otherwise God will give you the Hell you are asking for.

Because we all are such children, God has mercy on us for a time. But the mercy time ends for the unbelievers when they die. Why? Because they aren't alive to change their unbelief into belief any longer. By dying in unbelief, they lock themselves into it.

[CoinCube]

The "arbitrary rules" are freely chosen or rejected'' Not freely, you go to hell to get tortured forever if you reject them, that's not freedom. If I point a gun at you and tell you to give me your wallet or I shoot you, sure you have 2 options but you wouldn't consider that freedom, would you?

The possibility of an afterlife is a binary. There either is one or there is not. Let's proceed from the possibility that a heavenly afterlife exists along the general lines outlined in the Bible. What might its characteristics be?

1) It would probably be perfect from a human perspective.

2) It would allow for meaningful action and creativity. If it did not then it would be less a paradise and more a gilded playpen or cage.

3) Due to #1 and #2 above there is not a single human being worthy of or capable of proper existence in such an afterlife. Even the best of us are far from perfect. We are all full of varying amounts of falsehood, incoherence, and evil which if allowed expression via freedom of action would disrupt a perfect heaven.

4) Therefore before any human being could be allowed freedom of action in a perfect afterlife our deficiencies (falsehood, incoherence, and evil) would first need to be expunged. Yet these deficiencies are an intrinsic part of who we are.

5) Rectifying (burning away) of large portions of ourselves even if they are false, incoherent, and evil would likely be a very painful process. It would probably not be an exaggeration to describe such a process as the burning of the spirit in eternal hellfire.

6) Putting one through a torturous process of this sort could be the greatest act of mercy possible because the alternative would be oblivion and cessation. Purification though painful would potentially allow that what could be saved to be saved.

There is a strong minority view in Christianity that feels that the suffering of a soul in hell is not eternal.

The Seventh-day Adventist believe this.
See: Annihilationism

Even the Pope if recent news articles are to be believed is a advocate of Annihilationism though to my knowledge this is a minority view in the Catholic tradition.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/30/vatican-scrambles-to-clarify-popes-denial-that-hell-exists

Finally the Jews also believe something like Annihilationism with their views on purgatory.
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1594422/jewish/Do-Jews-Believe-in-Hell.htm


So yes the "arbitrary rules" are freely chosen or rejected. No one is pointing a gun at us. If anything the situation is probably more akin to a drowning man being offered a helping hand. It is up to us to grasp it or push it away.

[Astargath]

The "arbitrary rules" are freely chosen or rejected'' Not freely, you go to hell to get tortured forever if you reject them, that's not freedom. If I point a gun at you and tell you to give me your wallet or I shoot you, sure you have 2 options but you wouldn't consider that freedom, would you?

The possibility of an afterlife is a binary. There either is one or there is not. Let's proceed from the possibility that a heavenly afterlife exists along the general lines outlined in the Bible. What might its characteristics be?

1) It would probably be perfect from a human perspective.

2) It would allow for meaningful action and creativity. If it did not then it would be less a paradise and more a gilded playpen or cage.

3) Due to #1 and #2 above there is not a single human being worthy of or capable of proper existence in such an afterlife. Even the best of us are far from perfect. We are all full of varying amounts of falsehood, incoherence, and evil which if allowed expression via freedom of action would disrupt a perfect heaven.

4) Therefore before any human being could be allowed freedom of action in a perfect afterlife our deficiencies (falsehood, incoherence, and evil) would first need to be expunged. Yet these deficiencies are an intrinsic part of who we are.

5) Rectifying (burning away) of large portions of ourselves even if they are false, incoherent, and evil would likely be a very painful process. It would probably not be an exaggeration to describe such a process as the burning of the spirit in eternal hellfire.

6) Putting one through a torturous process of this sort could be the greatest act of mercy possible because the alternative would be oblivion and cessation. Purification though painful would potentially allow that what could be saved to be saved.

There is a strong minority view in Christianity that feels that the suffering of a soul in hell is not eternal.

The Seventh-day Adventist believe this.
See: Annihilationism

Even the Pope if recent news articles are to be believed is a advocate of Annihilationism though to my knowledge this is a minority view in the Catholic tradition.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/30/vatican-scrambles-to-clarify-popes-denial-that-hell-exists

Finally the Jews also believe something like Annihilationism with their views on purgatory.
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1594422/jewish/Do-Jews-Believe-in-Hell.htm


So yes the "arbitrary rules" are freely chosen or rejected. No one is pointing a gun at us. If anything the situation is probably more akin to a drowning man being offered a helping hand. It is up to us to grasp it or push it away.

''So yes the "arbitrary rules" are freely chosen or rejected. No one is pointing a gun at us. If anything the situation is probably more akin to a drowning man being offered a helping hand. It is up to us to grasp it or push it away. '' No it's more like you threw the man into the water and then you offer him a hand, since god created and put us here first. The arbitrary rules are still arbitrary throughout the whole bible like, ''do not work on the sabbath'' or ''your slave can be free after 7 years'' Why 7 years? Why can't I work on the sabbath? Rules should follow logic, otherwise they are meaningless.

Heaven as described in the bible is impossible, even if you are a believer in god and you go to heaven, what would prevent humans from harming others when they are there? Certainly a lot of believers here turned evil and even killed people. Also the huge problem with the fairness of the process like children dying too young or someone getting killed. What if the person that was killed was eventually going to accept god but he couldn't because he was killed? What about kids or babies that die too soon? What about the infinite amount of people that could have existed but don't?

If the bible was truly inspired by god and god wanted me to believe in him, I wouldn't have these questions, everything would be explained there but it isn't. Why should I get punished for using my intelligence that he gave me?

[CoinCube]

' No it's more like you threw the man into the water and then you offer him a hand, since god created and put us here first. The arbitrary rules are still arbitrary throughout the whole bible like, ''do not work on the sabbath'' or ''your slave can be free after 7 years'' Why 7 years? Why can't I work on the sabbath? Rules should follow logic, otherwise they are meaningless.
...
If the bible was truly inspired by god and god wanted me to believe in him, I wouldn't have these questions, everything would be explained there but it isn't. Why should I get punished for using my intelligence that he gave me?

I agree that rules should follow logic. However, just because we cannot always follow the logic does not mean that the logic is not there.

Take the Sabbath for example. Honoring the Sabbath could be necessary to sustain and propagate religious belief from generation to generation. If a solid ideological/religious substructure necessary to sustain society then the sabbath or a Sabbath equivalent could simply not be optional if one wishes to maintain rather then consume ones society. Fail to honor the Sabbath and the young start to forget and reject their religious foundation. Abandon the religious foundation and the entire society starts to destabilize. Is this happening in the west right now? Time will tell.

You may be correct when you say we are punished for our intelligence. According to Genesis our remotest ancestors exercised their freedom and made a "choice". They obtained/ate/developed sufficient intelligence to have knowledge of good and evil. With this intelligence humans gained the ability to choose evil voluntarily. Every human inherited this "gift" from them.

The "punishment" is the inevitable and logical consequence of the evil humans now freely choose and actively introduce into the world. Why does God allow us to make evil choices? Perhaps he wants us to be free. Freedom necessitates the ability to make choices for better or for worse.

[CoinCube]

'Losing My Religion' - Where Young Europeans Aren't Praying
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-04-02/losing-my-religion-where-young-europeans-arent-praying





Since the Czech Republic tops the list I am reminded of this earlier post from Okurkabinladin. If I recall correctly he mentioned in one of this posts that he grew up there.

I am that I am. I chose.

My return to God from nihilistic positions, that engulfed the West like a cancer took several years... And it has to some degree purely rational basis. I witnessed time and time again "scientists", who tried to understand desert by counting every single stone in it. It was not problem of the methodology, but of their choices, of their resignation on any non-materialistic argument. Without faith in what you do, all your work loses purpose besides feeding you. Degrading you in process from human being created in His image to something more akin to beast with large cranial capacity.

Faith forms culture, culture forms civilization. Civilization gives a Man purpose. When the faith dies, so does the culture and when culture is replaced civilization ends. Then men start to die. - Patrick Buchanan

Even atheist or rather agnostic greatly benefits from moral compass of religion and faith, as it provides for social stability, hope and drive. Giving entire culture what could be described as "soul". Marxists like Fromm and Freud understood this, as did scientists like Darwin and Newton.

I come from the most agnostic, godless place on planet... And I have witnessed how the place, without faith that formed its culture for the past millenia, slowly turned to Animals farm. Youngest being the hardest hit. Every generation in western Europe is now by full third (!) smaller than the previous one despite peace and welfare and health care. As I saw with my compatriots at foreign owned factories, women sell themselves to highest bidder, while men spend all their income on gambling and paying back high interest loans. Sounds almost like Bitcointalk, right? They dont do it for any purpose, but to feed themselves.

From industrial heart of Europe, into place full of aging, fearful corporate slaves, that wait for highest bidder. Fukuyama was indeed right, his "Last men" cannot be fought on battlefield by "barbarians". However, these "Last men" that I turned my back to also fail to do most most basic of things, that Darwin demands of victors in evolutionary race. Offspring. Because they have only interests, not beliefs. As did Greco-Romans before their demise.

Thats one of the points, why I personally chose to become "born again". I have grown up among secular liberals, saw their fashionable cults masquerading pointless materialism. And saw it for what it is. Nails to the coffin of our culture. I would hate the sight of my children as the "Last men".

If secular liberalism has any future, than why its adherents arent even able to replenish their own numbers? I already mentioned, that sir Darwin was anglican, yes? Well, atheists love to turn to him as a reference aswell. Will you? For a materialistic proof, friend.



Stats, you can look at the following as a list of developed, secular countries. Or as a graveyeard of their respective cultures and tribes. It is your choice. Guess, where is my homeland on the list? The very existence of these facts disprove that you can build anything that survives you on reason alone. It is against human nature. And therefore "science" aswell.

[WellDogeo]

Keeping faith at a moderate level, religion can bring benefits such as lowering blood pressure, boosting the immune system and prolonging the life span.

[JiuMiBe]

People who attend religious services at least once a week are thought to have a stronger immune system and are less likely to be sick.

[Astargath]

' No it's more like you threw the man into the water and then you offer him a hand, since god created and put us here first. The arbitrary rules are still arbitrary throughout the whole bible like, ''do not work on the sabbath'' or ''your slave can be free after 7 years'' Why 7 years? Why can't I work on the sabbath? Rules should follow logic, otherwise they are meaningless.
...
If the bible was truly inspired by god and god wanted me to believe in him, I wouldn't have these questions, everything would be explained there but it isn't. Why should I get punished for using my intelligence that he gave me?

I agree that rules should follow logic. However, just because we cannot always follow the logic does not mean that the logic is not there.

Take the Sabbath for example. Honoring the Sabbath could be necessary to sustain and propagate religious belief from generation to generation. If a solid ideological/religious substructure necessary to sustain society then the sabbath or a Sabbath equivalent could simply not be optional if one wishes to maintain rather then consume ones society. Fail to honor the Sabbath and the young start to forget and reject their religious foundation. Abandon the religious foundation and the entire society starts to destabilize. Is this happening in the west right now? Time will tell.

You may be correct when you say we are punished for our intelligence. According to Genesis our remotest ancestors exercised their freedom and made a "choice". They obtained/ate/developed sufficient intelligence to have knowledge of good and evil. With this intelligence humans gained the ability to choose evil voluntarily. Every human inherited this "gift" from them.

The "punishment" is the inevitable and logical consequence of the evil humans now freely choose and actively introduce into the world. Why does God allow us to make evil choices? Perhaps he wants us to be free. Freedom necessitates the ability to make choices for better or for worse.

''I agree that rules should follow logic. However, just because we cannot always follow the logic does not mean that the logic is not there. '' It also doesn't mean that there is, why take it for granted? Even if God is real, why follow him if his rules aren't good? If a true benevolent god exists then you wouldn't need to believe in him in order to be saved, in fact atheists that are good people should be valued more than religious people that are good because religious people are good because they know they will go to heaven and they fear hell, however atheists that are good, are good because they want to.

[[As]]

If you dedicate your life to some false idea... No big deal, natural selection will take care of it.

On this point at least af_newbie we agree.

In that spirit I would advise you to read the demographic information provided in the OP.

I think so. It may be only false idea. And I would like to give you a piece so you should know more and only then to take decisions. I hope that right decisions.

[CoinCube]

''I agree that rules should follow logic. However, just because we cannot always follow the logic does not mean that the logic is not there. '' It also doesn't mean that there is, why take it for granted? Even if God is real, why follow him if his rules aren't good? If a true benevolent god exists then you wouldn't need to believe in him in order to be saved, in fact atheists that are good people should be valued more than religious people that are good because religious people are good because they know they will go to heaven and they fear hell, however atheists that are good, are good because they want to.

I question the idea that there are any "good people". We grade ourselves on a curve, but the existence of others who are worse then us does not make us good.  

If we honestly compare ourselves to a true and perfect good each and every one of us would fall horribly short in comparison.

The belief in God gives us an ideal to strive towards. With God at least we can define good and from that definition comes a reason to improve ourselves and a goal to strive towards. It gives us an ideal that can never be achieved only approximated.

Humans clearly do not deserve an afterlife of any kind. We have not earned one, nor are we in any way fit to inhabit one in our current state. If an afterlife is on offer it could only be through an act of extreme generosity the ultimate charity case.

There are certainly atheist's who behave well by relative human standards and there certainly are religious fanatics and hypocrites who behave very badly. Take away the curve and apply an objective standard of good and evil and I am not at all confident where humanity falls on the scale.

You argue "If a true benevolent God exists then you wouldn't need to believe in him in order to be saved"

This line of thought fails to consider the possibility that the very act of believing in God is transformative. It is possible that it is the act of belief that allows one to be saved not so much via external intervention but from the changes in our essence our souls if you will that become possible once we define our first principles and ground our existence in them.

[deshan1]

Religion is about the mind . It keeps the mind healthy . So religion guide to keep the mind healthy .