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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3011181 times)
s1gs3gv
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ex uno plures


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June 13, 2014, 02:59:45 PM
 #34741

...you can within 48 hours have from www.bitmain.com ship a 1 TH unit at $2261 USd so for $6783 usd that is like getting your Neptune in 1 week...

Thats what they have on the window sticker. My guess is that you can do even better on price if you ask.

It'll be interesting to see what Bitmain do with the S3. Hopefully it will be a small miner friendly (no hearing protectors or asbestos gloves needed) machine with good $/GH and J/GH performance before August.
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s1gs3gv
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June 13, 2014, 03:48:32 PM
 #34742

For ego maybe but its not cost effective:

It cost maunfacturers $500-600 per TH now and thats only 1.5w/gh performance, KNC cant even buy at price because they dont manufacture the chips themselves.  Prob cost them  $1000 TH to build their machines.

Samsonn25, no bitcoin ASIC miner company manufactures their own chips. They all have similar design and foundry costs.


Companies in China can design and manufacture faster for themselves.  Such as bitmain and others.  Less r and d now because they improve what they can from previous gen. Not trying to be pioneers as time is too much of a risk factor.

Samsonn25, there is an interesting dynamic developing in the bitcoin ecosystem that people should consider when they think about the possible evolution of the mining and miner manufacturing industry. There are points on the mining profitability curve where miners can justify spending the kind of money on new equipment that allow miner manufacturers to accept the risk of the significant capital R&D costs needed to produce the next generation of technology. And there are points on the curve where the risk is unacceptable and miner manufacturers evolve existing technology.

So far, the Chinese have been evolutionary in their approach. This is probably because they haven't had the capital, or expectations of reasonable returns, to invest in large die 20nm ASIC development. They deploy 'old technology' at scale, with tuning to meet short term market demands. After this current generation of Chinese mining technology, they will be faced with the choice of either having to make significant investment in their own 20nm ASICs or exit the market. My guess is that several Chinese manufacturers will join together in a consortium to fund the needed investment and share the results. Eventually, they will consolidate.

KNC was fortunate in their timing and invested profit from their successful first products and their mining revenue into large die 20nm technology. We'll soon discover what kind of performance this yields. My guess is a 1st in Class machine that they can then node shrink to 14nm without a lot of risk or expense to enable them to stay competitive well into the point on the mining profitability curve where others can not compete because there is too much risk to capital returns.

Other existing mining equipment manufacturers fall somewhere between these two cases, some relying on die shrinks of old technology to stay competitive, others investing in 28nm and 40nm designs and mostly falling on their faces leaving a trail of unhappy pre-order investors in their wake.

So, the long and short of it is that we are getting to the point on the profitability curve where if a company hasn't already made the very large investments needed to stay competitive over the next few years, they are out of business. Its is clear to me that KNC, so far, has made all the correct strategic moves to ensure that they are a leader in this market for the foreseeable future.

If Spondoolies can pull off the investment needed for their post-28nm technology they have a chance. But the mining profitability curve is working against them.


AFox
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June 13, 2014, 05:44:12 PM
 #34743

From their email of Monday 9th :
Quote
Everybody, here's a summary of news from KnCMiner published last week, stay tuned for more updates later this week!
I wonder what happened here ?
Oh wait, I think I here people from KNC's HQ : "Run with the money and bitcoins!"

My lucky BTC address : 1LoTTerY3WYbGxVRHvh8oDudDdTxFvvqWF
raskul
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June 13, 2014, 05:48:04 PM
 #34744

WORDS

why are you attempting to discuss Spondoolies in the KnC thread?
here we were having a friendly discussion and you pile in with your nonsense, yet again.

mate, you really should learn some forum etiquette.

tips    1APp826DqjJBdsAeqpEstx6Q8hD4urac8a
raskul
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June 13, 2014, 05:49:50 PM
 #34745

From their email of Monday 9th :
Quote
Everybody, here's a summary of news from KnCMiner published last week, stay tuned for more updates later this week!
I wonder what happened here ?
Oh wait, I think I here people from KNC's HQ : "Run with the money and bitcoins!"

this entire month is looking to become a serious train wreck. I hope we recover by year end. And I hope my friends who have kept their nippy orders, manage to find some positive return on them... although, it's not looking likely.

tips    1APp826DqjJBdsAeqpEstx6Q8hD4urac8a
Phoenix1969
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June 13, 2014, 05:57:25 PM
 #34746

For ego maybe but its not cost effective:

It cost maunfacturers $500-600 per TH now and thats only 1.5w/gh performance, KNC cant even buy at price because they dont manufacture the chips themselves.  Prob cost them  $1000 TH to build their machines.

Samsonn25, no bitcoin ASIC miner company manufactures their own chips. They all have similar design and foundry costs.


Companies in China can design and manufacture faster for themselves.  Such as bitmain and others.  Less r and d now because they improve what they can from previous gen. Not trying to be pioneers as time is too much of a risk factor.

Samsonn25, there is an interesting dynamic developing in the bitcoin ecosystem that people should consider when they think about the possible evolution of the mining and miner manufacturing industry. There are points on the mining profitability curve where miners can justify spending the kind of money on new equipment that allow miner manufacturers to accept the risk of the significant capital R&D costs needed to produce the next generation of technology. And there are points on the curve where the risk is unacceptable and miner manufacturers evolve existing technology.

So far, the Chinese have been evolutionary in their approach. This is probably because they haven't had the capital, or expectations of reasonable returns, to invest in large die 20nm ASIC development. They deploy 'old technology' at scale, with tuning to meet short term market demands. After this current generation of Chinese mining technology, they will be faced with the choice of either having to make significant investment in their own 20nm ASICs or exit the market. My guess is that several Chinese manufacturers will join together in a consortium to fund the needed investment and share the results. Eventually, they will consolidate.

KNC was fortunate in their timing and invested profit from their successful first products and their mining revenue into large die 20nm technology. We'll soon discover what kind of performance this yields. My guess is a 1st in Class machine that they can then node shrink to 14nm without a lot of risk or expense to enable them to stay competitive well into the point on the mining profitability curve where others can not compete because there is too much risk to capital returns.

Other existing mining equipment manufacturers fall somewhere between these two cases, some relying on die shrinks of old technology to stay competitive, others investing in 28nm and 40nm designs and mostly falling on their faces leaving a trail of unhappy pre-order investors in their wake.

So, the long and short of it is that we are getting to the point on the profitability curve where if a company hasn't already made the very large investments needed to stay competitive over the next few years, they are out of business. Its is clear to me that KNC, so far, has made all the correct strategic moves to ensure that they are a leader in this market for the foreseeable future.

If Spondoolies can pull off the investment needed for their post-28nm technology they have a chance. But the mining profitability curve is working against them.



16nm is next, which they also began in October with Allchip, at the same time they started 20nm


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raskul
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June 13, 2014, 05:58:52 PM
 #34747



16nm is next, which they also began in October with allchip.

Eric!

good to see you've caught up! finally!

note: end of march - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=551261.0

tips    1APp826DqjJBdsAeqpEstx6Q8hD4urac8a
Phoenix1969
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June 13, 2014, 06:01:37 PM
 #34748



16nm is next, which they also began in October with allchip.

Eric!

good to see you've caught up! finally!
Yeah, I'm a "Glutton for punishment"  I was busy spending all my coin... lol.
Got any good insults for me to start the day?


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raskul
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June 13, 2014, 06:03:10 PM
 #34749



16nm is next, which they also began in October with allchip.

Eric!

good to see you've caught up! finally!
Yeah, I'm a "Glutton for punishment"  I was busy spending all my coin... lol.

what'd ya buy? I'm gonna use some of mine to get a holiday via expedia... thinking Israel for xmas  Grin

tips    1APp826DqjJBdsAeqpEstx6Q8hD4urac8a
Phoenix1969
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June 13, 2014, 06:05:34 PM
 #34750



16nm is next, which they also began in October with allchip.

Eric!

good to see you've caught up! finally!
Yeah, I'm a "Glutton for punishment"  I was busy spending all my coin... lol.

what'd ya buy? I'm gonna use some of mine to get a holiday via expedia... thinking Israel for xmas  Grin
A zero-Turn John-Deere mower...
and a 2005 Silverado 2500 HD 4x4 crew I get Saturday if all goes right...
Thought I better before I trade away all my profitz...lol


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June 13, 2014, 06:08:31 PM
 #34751



16nm is next, which they also began in October with allchip.

Eric!

good to see you've caught up! finally!
Yeah, I'm a "Glutton for punishment"  I was busy spending all my coin... lol.

what'd ya buy? I'm gonna use some of mine to get a holiday via expedia... thinking Israel for xmas  Grin
A zero-Turn John-Deere mower...
and a 2005 Silverado 2500 HD 4x4 crew I get Saturday if all goes right...

sweet, what's the w/gh on the mower?  Wink
I used to have an old 'apache' (i think that was the name of it) for the acre in lincolnshire - after the council ordered us to destroy the ragwort or face prosecution, it was a must - along-with the strimmer and the tin of petrol to get the bonfire going.

tips    1APp826DqjJBdsAeqpEstx6Q8hD4urac8a
Phoenix1969
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June 13, 2014, 06:12:44 PM
 #34752



16nm is next, which they also began in October with allchip.

Eric!

good to see you've caught up! finally!
Yeah, I'm a "Glutton for punishment"  I was busy spending all my coin... lol.

what'd ya buy? I'm gonna use some of mine to get a holiday via expedia... thinking Israel for xmas  Grin
A zero-Turn John-Deere mower...
and a 2005 Silverado 2500 HD 4x4 crew I get Saturday if all goes right...

sweet, what's the w/gh on the mower?  Wink
I used to have an old 'apache' (i think that was the name of it) for the acre in lincolnshire - after the council ordered us to destroy the ragwort or face prosecution, it was a must - along-with the strimmer and the tin of petrol to get the bonfire going.
Yeah. lol... Nothing works quite like incineration, but I like my place actually.... hehe It's a 48' deck, which replaces an old LT2000 craftsman regular crappy 36" rider that I've ran into the rocks a few too many times until the deck rusted apart, and the mandrel sent the blade thru the deck... time for a noob.... 3 acres to mow. Now at least I have something to show from the Jupiters... although I'll keep the mower, the silvrado is an investment for resale.


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raskul
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June 13, 2014, 06:15:24 PM
 #34753



16nm is next, which they also began in October with allchip.

Eric!

good to see you've caught up! finally!
Yeah, I'm a "Glutton for punishment"  I was busy spending all my coin... lol.

what'd ya buy? I'm gonna use some of mine to get a holiday via expedia... thinking Israel for xmas  Grin
A zero-Turn John-Deere mower...
and a 2005 Silverado 2500 HD 4x4 crew I get Saturday if all goes right...

sweet, what's the w/gh on the mower?  Wink
I used to have an old 'apache' (i think that was the name of it) for the acre in lincolnshire - after the council ordered us to destroy the ragwort or face prosecution, it was a must - along-with the strimmer and the tin of petrol to get the bonfire going.
Yeah. lol... Nothing works quite like incineration, but I like my place actually.... hehe It's a 48' deck, which replaces an old LT2000 craftsman regular crappy 36" rider that I've ran into the rocks a few too many times until the deck rusted apart, and the mandrel sent the blade thru the deck... time for a noob.... 3 acres to mow. Now at least I have something to show from the Jupiters... although I'll keep the mower, the silvrado is an investment for resale

cool, best luck getting the wagon at a good price.

tips    1APp826DqjJBdsAeqpEstx6Q8hD4urac8a
Phoenix1969
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June 13, 2014, 06:18:09 PM
 #34754



16nm is next, which they also began in October with allchip.

Eric!

good to see you've caught up! finally!
Yeah, I'm a "Glutton for punishment"  I was busy spending all my coin... lol.

what'd ya buy? I'm gonna use some of mine to get a holiday via expedia... thinking Israel for xmas  Grin
A zero-Turn John-Deere mower...
and a 2005 Silverado 2500 HD 4x4 crew I get Saturday if all goes right...

sweet, what's the w/gh on the mower?  Wink
I used to have an old 'apache' (i think that was the name of it) for the acre in lincolnshire - after the council ordered us to destroy the ragwort or face prosecution, it was a must - along-with the strimmer and the tin of petrol to get the bonfire going.
Yeah. lol... Nothing works quite like incineration, but I like my place actually.... hehe It's a 48' deck, which replaces an old LT2000 craftsman regular crappy 36" rider that I've ran into the rocks a few too many times until the deck rusted apart, and the mandrel sent the blade thru the deck... time for a noob.... 3 acres to mow. Now at least I have something to show from the Jupiters... although I'll keep the mower, the silvrado is an investment for resale

cool, best luck getting the wagon at a good price.
thx..  also...  The mower's 0-Gh/s has a better btc return than any Miner I see right now...lol
Yeah... the wagon is a "Good deal". A divorcee who has to liquidate selling @ 1/2 Blue book price and I was a "Goodwrench"
Mech for many years... So the plan is to turn it over before all the BTC liquidations happen to be ready to buy back in.


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raskul
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June 13, 2014, 06:20:21 PM
 #34755

thx..  also...  The mower's 0-Gh/s has a better btc return than any Miner I see right now...lol

meh, nothing in-stock worth looking at just now; and i just plain refuse to go down any alt-route.
hence just buying up more coins today - gotta put friday the 13th to some use huh?

tips    1APp826DqjJBdsAeqpEstx6Q8hD4urac8a
jimmothy
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June 13, 2014, 06:23:58 PM
 #34756

So far, the Chinese have been evolutionary in their approach. This is probably because they haven't had the capital, or expectations of reasonable returns, to invest in large die 20nm ASIC development. They deploy 'old technology' at scale, with tuning to meet short term market demands. After this current generation of Chinese mining technology, they will be faced with the choice of either having to make significant investment in their own 20nm ASICs or exit the market. My guess is that several Chinese manufacturers will join together in a consortium to fund the needed investment and share the results. Eventually, they will consolidate.

I agree that the chinese have been revolutionary but it is not because they lacked capital (hence no preorders). They did not go with 20nm for the same reason everyone else didn't, which is because the costs outweigh the benefits.

Quote
KNC was fortunate in their timing and invested profit from their successful first products and their mining revenue into large die 20nm technology. We'll soon discover what kind of performance this yields. My guess is a 1st in Class machine that they can then node shrink to 14nm without a lot of risk or expense to enable them to stay competitive well into the point on the mining profitability curve where others can not compete because there is too much risk to capital returns.

KNC 20nm will be ~0.7w/gh at the wall assuming the 30% increased efficiency per die shrink. This puts their 20nm chip on par with bitfuries 55nm chip in terms of efficiency. If bitfury makes a 28nm chip it will certainly destroy everything on the market today.

Also large die 20nm technology is not the ideal solution for bitcoin mining. Each chip will need a powerful cooler (most likely water cooled). A bunch of small and efficient 8mm chips with a shared heatsink is a much more cost effective solution.


Quote
Other existing mining equipment manufacturers fall somewhere between these two cases, some relying on die shrinks of old technology to stay competitive, others investing in 28nm and 40nm designs and mostly falling on their faces leaving a trail of unhappy pre-order investors in their wake.

The face falling has to do with the preorders not the process size.

Quote
So, the long and short of it is that we are getting to the point on the profitability curve where if a company hasn't already made the very large investments needed to stay competitive over the next few years, they are out of business. Its is clear to me that KNC, so far, has made all the correct strategic moves to ensure that they are a leader in this market for the foreseeable future.

Completely disagree. I think they are shooting themselves in the foot by going with a die shrink to 20nm instead of improving their design.
Phoenix1969
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June 13, 2014, 06:24:35 PM
 #34757

thx..  also...  The mower's 0-Gh/s has a better btc return than any Miner I see right now...lol

meh, nothing in-stock worth looking at just now; and i just plain refuse to go down any alt-route.
hence just buying up more coins today - gotta put friday the 13th to some use huh?
Oh shizzle... Friday the 13th.....  Good thing it's tomorrow.... lol

***Weren't we told by KNC there would be news by today on the Cloud-hashing contracts?  
("Later this week" in the news)
Looks like yet another broken promise.....  I wonder now if they actually WANT people to refund...?
and where the hell are the pics of our 20nm wafers when they taped out weeks ago?
Any cutting edge chip developer should have been proud to post the pics of something like that I'd think...?

I keep coming to the well for water, but finding it dry when I was promised the most refreshing water ever.
They left a note though... "We got the water! more news about the best water ever coming later this week".
and although I paid in advance for my best water ever, there are people walking by with water from 7-11 that was cheaper and delivered sooner. That's okay, because they've promised to give me double the water I paid for, even though I may die of dehydration(Difficulty) before they arrive and meanwhile the 7-11 guys are enjoying Big-Gulps hoping my well never has water in it, hovering like vultures, cursing my beloved water provider when I just know they are as pure as the driven snow.  Roll Eyes
and its now the last day of the week... no sign of moisture even.



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greghawk
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June 13, 2014, 07:14:58 PM
 #34758

thx..  also...  The mower's 0-Gh/s has a better btc return than any Miner I see right now...lol

meh, nothing in-stock worth looking at just now; and i just plain refuse to go down any alt-route.
hence just buying up more coins today - gotta put friday the 13th to some use huh?
Oh shizzle... Friday the 13th.....  Good thing it's tomorrow.... lol

***Weren't we told by KNC there would be news by today on the Cloud-hashing contracts?  
("Later this week" in the news)
Looks like yet another broken promise.....  I wonder now if they actually WANT people to refund...?
and where the hell are the pics of our 20nm wafers when they taped out weeks ago?
Any cutting edge chip developer should have been proud to post the pics of something like that I'd think...?

I keep coming to the well for water, but finding it dry when I was promised the most refreshing water ever.
They left a note though... "We got the water! more news about the best water ever coming later this week".
and although I paid in advance for my best water ever, there are people walking by with water from 7-11 that was cheaper and delivered sooner. That's okay, because they've promised to give me double the water I paid for, even though I may die of dehydration(Difficulty) before they arrive and meanwhile the 7-11 guys are enjoying Big-Gulps hoping my well never has water in it, hovering like vultures, cursing my beloved water provider when I just know they are as pure as the driven snow.  Roll Eyes
and its now the last day of the week... no sign of moisture even.



lol  Grin

ya, hard to see the dark side is

Still, I´m hoping, although I´m very thursty now
Phoenix1969
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June 13, 2014, 08:04:52 PM
 #34759


lol  Grin

ya, hard to see the dark side is

Still, I´m hoping, although I´m very thursty now
There's always the chance they are diverting a fater-fall... or a hefty storm coming....(very small chance) fingers crossed
Frustrating all this secrecy it is....


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RoadStress
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June 13, 2014, 08:36:05 PM
 #34760

I am waiting to see what KNC and Bitmain do in the next month or so before I commit any more money to equipment.
The SP30 could well be still born ...


I thought we are supposed to see what KNC will to THIS month, not next month! That means a nice 1 month delay for Neptune pre-orders. Very nice! Shill more for your fail company please!

iCEBREAKER is a troll! He and cypherdoc helped HashFast scam 50 Million $ from its customers !
H/w Hosting Directory & Reputation - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=622998.0
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