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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3007396 times)
crashoveride54902
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June 19, 2014, 02:33:49 AM
 #35121

And in other news: KNC is still screwing ppl...bought some hosted miners shipped to me from someone off forum...he says he has official statements and announcements from them that said they were upgrading them to nov. boards free of charge...and what do i receive...yep you guessed it Oct. jups Sad oh and you'd think by now they would at least secure the flipping fan shrouds on after the first shipment hazard...nope...even some of the heatsinks where crooked...typical stuff that has been all over the forum for months now Sad

and with the neptombs...good luck with those if they didn't put another connector on the asic...if oct. jups OC'd can melt psu pcie connectors....you'll insta start a fire with these lol...well maybe not cause it'll probably just trip the psu before it would go poof...but then if they require 420w thur 1 pcie 6pin...how the heck did they test this? and why would they think this would work for the general public?

I wonder if they'll ship with their famous pcie extenders on just to increase the odds of fire? Grin

Dreams of cyprto solving everything is slowly slipping away...Replaced by scams/hacks Sad
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rograz
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June 19, 2014, 02:50:08 AM
 #35122

Yes.  But that's the whole discussion. How can that 1 connector power up 450 + watts

I was just attempting to correct you misconceptions. You didn't appear to have read the news updates so I thought I'd link/quote them. I didn't say what KNC is attempting is logical or feasible. In fact it might be their biggest mistake yet since they seem to be purposely releasing miners into the wild that could potentially be extremely hazardous.

If they are only using 1 connector for 450W they better pull a approved PSU list out of their asses, the cables should be fine on most high end psus but the quality of the pci-e connectors can vary quite a bit as well.

I might add that 450w is way out of the specs of the connector itself from molex, from what i've heard it's 11A per pin (not talking about the pci-e specs that are even lower), but if they are good quality they should be able to handle it (on a good day) I have personally run close to 400w trough them (but only short term when doing rather extreme OC)
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June 19, 2014, 03:40:07 AM
 #35123

Yes.  But that's the whole discussion. How can that 1 connector power up 450 + watts

I was just attempting to correct you misconceptions. You didn't appear to have read the news updates so I thought I'd link/quote them. I didn't say what KNC is attempting is logical or feasible. In fact it might be their biggest mistake yet since they seem to be purposely releasing miners into the wild that could potentially be extremely hazardous.

If they are only using 1 connector for 450W they better pull a approved PSU list out of their asses, the cables should be fine on most high end psus but the quality of the pci-e connectors can vary quite a bit as well.

I might add that 450w is way out of the specs of the connector itself from molex, from what i've heard it's 11A per pin (not talking about the pci-e specs that are even lower), but if they are good quality they should be able to handle it (on a good day) I have personally run close to 400w trough them (but only short term when doing rather extreme OC)

Table 4.3 - http://www.molex.com/pdm_docs/ps/PS-45558-001.pdf

and

http://www.molex.com/webdocs/datasheets/pdf/en-us/0457320001_PCB_HEADERS.pdf
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June 19, 2014, 04:34:18 AM
 #35124

It's not like you can get a 3Th/s Neptune now. If you buy a Neptune now you will get it in September too. There is nothing on stock right now.

Do you really think they will be shipping in september? They said they expect to ship batch 1 and 2 before the end of this month..

Right they will ship 2 batches in 1 week.

Quote
You only need 0.028btc to afford datatank/giant mining operation rates.

It's a fair comparison because your customers need to spend $5,300 + $0.15/kwh where as datatank customers spend $17 for 18GH. Please show me hosting at $0.025/kwh available to your customers. I doubt you can even find below $0.05/kwh.

Yes someone could probably build an air cooled DC but even at $0.025/kwh immersion cooling would save ~$200,000/year in electricity costs alone.

What will 0.028btc get you in order to afford datatank mining?

200k$ per year saved in cooling electricity costs right? What is the cost for the Datatank?


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rograz
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June 19, 2014, 04:40:43 AM
 #35125


The first one is just a copy of the the pci-e express power standards iirc, if we were limited by those standards the world would be on fire by now! Second one states 8A however so it's even worse than the info I had, could be that there are different pin configurations however with different ratings.

Better pull out some LN2 and cool those connectors.
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June 19, 2014, 05:07:33 AM
 #35126

xstr8guy
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June 19, 2014, 05:54:16 AM
 #35127

Be sure to stack dry kindling on and around those PCI cables to keep them cool. If you don't have any kindling on hand, oily rags will do in a pinch. Also be sure to have a full gas can venting into the surrounding area.

Err, I mean... DON'T! Lips sealed
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June 19, 2014, 05:57:15 AM
 #35128

Isn´t KNC late on their shipment?

Didn´t they say the "customer appreciation" batch would ship one month before end of Q2?

Also, 0.7W/GH on 20nm is a waste of Silicon, you can get that on 40nm or even 55nm.... It just makes for unreasonably high NRE.



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xstr8guy
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June 19, 2014, 06:07:16 AM
 #35129

Isn´t KNC late on their shipment?

Didn´t they say the "customer appreciation" batch would ship one month before end of Q2?

Also, 0.7W/GH on 20nm is a waste of Silicone, you can get that on 40nm or even 55nm.... It just makes for unreasonably high NRE.

Yeah, they said a lot of things. Most of them untrue.

And for gods sake I hope they didn't use silicone. That would indeed be a waste! I'm pretty sure that isn't semiconductor material, lol.
The Avenger
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June 19, 2014, 06:21:46 AM
 #35130

Be sure to stack dry kindling on and around those PCI cables to keep them cool. If you don't have any kindling on hand, oily rags will do in a pinch. Also be sure to have a full gas can venting into the surrounding area.
lol  Cheesy

Of course, that will void your knc 30 second warranty  Wink

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rograz
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June 19, 2014, 06:21:51 AM
 #35131

Also, 0.7W/GH on 20nm is a waste of Silicone, you can get that on 40nm or even 55nm.... It just makes for unreasonably high NRE.

For the customer yes, but unless the KNC design is horrible they are using A LOT less die area building a 3TH machine than you would with 40/55nm due to performance density from node shrinking (each full node shrink is eta 50% higher transistor density iirc) add increased frequency headroom and lower power usage (comparatively, example running chip x on 28nm it uses y power at z frequency, shrink x to 20nm and power usage y at frequency z should decrease with expected -20%+).

The fact that KNC are running these chips at 0,7W/GH could mean a number of things.
1. Another hard copy rather than custom design (worse density/effiency)
2. 20nm has leakage problems
3. The ships scales very well and tolerate high speeds, in other words they are clocked for speed rather than efficiency making it cost less for KNC to provide the ordered performance. It simply makes no sense for them to use up to 50% extra chips so they can ship at <0,5W/GH at this point.


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June 19, 2014, 06:36:22 AM
 #35132

The downsize with die shrinking is more heat when the frequency is run up
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June 19, 2014, 07:49:46 AM
 #35133

[The fact that KNC are running these chips at 0,7W/GH could mean a number of things.
1. Another hard copy rather than custom design (worse density/effiency)

Stop drinking Inaba's coolaid. 20nm structured asics (altera hardcopy etc) dont even exist yet.

Now given how new/experimental 20nm still is, I am sure its a standard cell implementation which will never be optimally efficient. But keep in mind that smaller process nodes offer 2 advantages; first is power efficiency, the second is transistor density which directly translates in to cost per TH.

NRE might have been sky high, but unless yields are in the toilet, 20nm chips should be cheaper to produce than 28nm chips per TH.

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June 19, 2014, 07:55:47 AM
 #35134

[The fact that KNC are running these chips at 0,7W/GH could mean a number of things.
1. Another hard copy rather than custom design (worse density/effiency)

Stop drinking Inaba's coolaid. 20nm structured asics (altera hardcopy etc) dont even exist yet.

Now given how new/experimental 20nm still is, I am sure its a standard cell implementation which will never be optimally efficient. But keep in mind that smaller process nodes offer 2 advantages; first is power efficiency, the second is transistor density which directly translates in to cost per TH.

NRE might have been sky high, but unless yields are in the toilet, 20nm chips should be cheaper to produce than 28nm chips per TH.

That still doesn't justifies throwing a couple of millions $ for the R&D and for the mask.

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June 19, 2014, 08:08:31 AM
 #35135

That still doesn't justifies throwing a couple of millions $ for the R&D and for the mask.

Without knowing how many millions they will spend on wafers, thats not a conclusion you can draw. What you can probably safely conclude, is that they intend to order a shitload of wafers. Lets make some guesses. Lets say the mask set cost $5M and lets say per TH cost scales linearly with node/transistor size. 20²/28²~=0.5. So if they intend to order >$5M worth of wafers, it  makes sense excluding even the improved power efficiency.
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June 19, 2014, 08:14:43 AM
 #35136

Does anyone know if they can tell if they really do have 20nm chips as opposed to 28nm if they are going to ship you 5 boxes? What if they shipped Nov jups at 700G underclocked to conserve power and put them in 5 shiny boxes that would equal 3T.

Well you could look inside, if there are 4 chips in each box its a Jupiter Roll Eyes

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June 19, 2014, 08:21:45 AM
 #35137

That still doesn't justifies throwing a couple of millions $ for the R&D and for the mask.

Without knowing how many millions they will spend on wafers, thats not a conclusion you can draw. What you can probably safely conclude, is that they intend to order a shitload of wafers. Lets make some guesses. Lets say the mask set cost $5M and lets say per TH cost scales linearly with node/transistor size. 20²/28²~=0.5. So if they intend to order >$5M worth of wafers, it  makes sense excluding even the improved power efficiency.

Sure, but with $5M they could order a shitload of 28nm wafers in December and mine much more than they will mine now with the 20nm chips. Assuming all the other hardware costs are the same the power difference isn't that big to justify their move.

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June 19, 2014, 08:25:35 AM
 #35138

My new worthless prediction (I'm batting .000, lol)...

After all of the 5 piece preorders are delivered (or maybe before), KNC will introduce a new product that uses more chips but is much more efficient. They're going to have to do this to compete with Spondoolies.

IMO, they are only shipping 5 board Neptunes because this was the cheapest configuration to get to the 3THs target. But my guess it isn't what they had originally planned nor what is optimal for the new ASIC.

There is some very compelling evidence that supports this hypothesis. But the most glaringly obvious is the single PCI power connector. They're not so stupid to design it to handle 420w. But they were compelled to squeeze as much hash out of each chip that they threw away common sense.

Remember "under promise, over deliver"? Yeah, not to so much anymore. The new motto... "We deliver dangerous crap because we're cheap bastards."
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June 19, 2014, 08:50:16 AM
 #35139

My new worthless prediction (I'm batting .000, lol)...

After all of the 5 piece preorders are delivered (or maybe before), KNC will introduce a new product that uses more chips but is much more efficient. They're going to have to do this to compete with Spondoolies.

IMO, they are only shipping 5 board Neptunes because this was the cheapest configuration to get to the 3THs target. But my guess it isn't what they had originally planned nor what is optimal for the new ASIC.

There is some very compelling evidence that supports this hypothesis. But the most glaringly obvious is the single PCI power connector. They're not so stupid to design it to handle 420w. But they were compelled to squeeze as much hash out of each chip that they threw away common sense.

Remember "under promise, over deliver"? Yeah, not to so much anymore. The new motto... "We deliver dangerous crap because we're cheap bastards."

1 month ago (after I saw the picture of the PCB with only one 6-pin power connector) I wrote an alarming email to Sam directly. Sam replied within one hour, and replied he would discuss the issue with the developers.  
My guess is that they have added a second power-connector (on the opposite side, so you cannot see it on the box photos), or.... they calculated that one connector was still appropriate, which would mean that only 200 to 250 watt is used per PCB.  If this last is the case then they have a rabbit-in-the-hat : one box gives 600 Ghs running 250 Watt gives 0.41 W/Ghs............

But my fear is that they didn't either add a connector nor have a 0.41 W/Gs.....
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June 19, 2014, 10:40:43 AM
 #35140

Knc Cloud: https://www.knccloud.com/blog/archive

"Dear ,

As you are a Neptune customer, you are entitled to take up our Plan B offer to “Hash While You Wait”, or to convert your Neptune order to a KnC Titan.

To activate your account please click the following URL/Link where you can choose your option and setup your KnCCloud account.

Your hashing will begin on Monday the 23rd of June from 9am UTC, provided you’ve made that choice on the Neptune Order Options.

To ensure you receive all the power you've paid for, please ensure that your account is up to date with your wallet address to receive your Plan B mined Bitcoins.

Hashing will stop as soon as your unit ships out from our factory.

If you have any questions please contact: info@kncminer.com

Thanks
KnC Miner Team"

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