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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3046693 times)
samsonn25
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June 19, 2014, 06:36:22 AM
 #35121

The downsize with die shrinking is more heat when the frequency is run up
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June 19, 2014, 07:49:46 AM
 #35122

[The fact that KNC are running these chips at 0,7W/GH could mean a number of things.
1. Another hard copy rather than custom design (worse density/effiency)

Stop drinking Inaba's coolaid. 20nm structured asics (altera hardcopy etc) dont even exist yet.

Now given how new/experimental 20nm still is, I am sure its a standard cell implementation which will never be optimally efficient. But keep in mind that smaller process nodes offer 2 advantages; first is power efficiency, the second is transistor density which directly translates in to cost per TH.

NRE might have been sky high, but unless yields are in the toilet, 20nm chips should be cheaper to produce than 28nm chips per TH.

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June 19, 2014, 07:55:47 AM
 #35123

[The fact that KNC are running these chips at 0,7W/GH could mean a number of things.
1. Another hard copy rather than custom design (worse density/effiency)

Stop drinking Inaba's coolaid. 20nm structured asics (altera hardcopy etc) dont even exist yet.

Now given how new/experimental 20nm still is, I am sure its a standard cell implementation which will never be optimally efficient. But keep in mind that smaller process nodes offer 2 advantages; first is power efficiency, the second is transistor density which directly translates in to cost per TH.

NRE might have been sky high, but unless yields are in the toilet, 20nm chips should be cheaper to produce than 28nm chips per TH.

That still doesn't justifies throwing a couple of millions $ for the R&D and for the mask.

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June 19, 2014, 08:08:31 AM
 #35124

That still doesn't justifies throwing a couple of millions $ for the R&D and for the mask.

Without knowing how many millions they will spend on wafers, thats not a conclusion you can draw. What you can probably safely conclude, is that they intend to order a shitload of wafers. Lets make some guesses. Lets say the mask set cost $5M and lets say per TH cost scales linearly with node/transistor size. 20²/28²~=0.5. So if they intend to order >$5M worth of wafers, it  makes sense excluding even the improved power efficiency.
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June 19, 2014, 08:14:43 AM
 #35125

Does anyone know if they can tell if they really do have 20nm chips as opposed to 28nm if they are going to ship you 5 boxes? What if they shipped Nov jups at 700G underclocked to conserve power and put them in 5 shiny boxes that would equal 3T.

Well you could look inside, if there are 4 chips in each box its a Jupiter Roll Eyes

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June 19, 2014, 08:21:45 AM
 #35126

That still doesn't justifies throwing a couple of millions $ for the R&D and for the mask.

Without knowing how many millions they will spend on wafers, thats not a conclusion you can draw. What you can probably safely conclude, is that they intend to order a shitload of wafers. Lets make some guesses. Lets say the mask set cost $5M and lets say per TH cost scales linearly with node/transistor size. 20²/28²~=0.5. So if they intend to order >$5M worth of wafers, it  makes sense excluding even the improved power efficiency.

Sure, but with $5M they could order a shitload of 28nm wafers in December and mine much more than they will mine now with the 20nm chips. Assuming all the other hardware costs are the same the power difference isn't that big to justify their move.

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June 19, 2014, 08:25:35 AM
 #35127

My new worthless prediction (I'm batting .000, lol)...

After all of the 5 piece preorders are delivered (or maybe before), KNC will introduce a new product that uses more chips but is much more efficient. They're going to have to do this to compete with Spondoolies.

IMO, they are only shipping 5 board Neptunes because this was the cheapest configuration to get to the 3THs target. But my guess it isn't what they had originally planned nor what is optimal for the new ASIC.

There is some very compelling evidence that supports this hypothesis. But the most glaringly obvious is the single PCI power connector. They're not so stupid to design it to handle 420w. But they were compelled to squeeze as much hash out of each chip that they threw away common sense.

Remember "under promise, over deliver"? Yeah, not to so much anymore. The new motto... "We deliver dangerous crap because we're cheap bastards."
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June 19, 2014, 08:50:16 AM
 #35128

My new worthless prediction (I'm batting .000, lol)...

After all of the 5 piece preorders are delivered (or maybe before), KNC will introduce a new product that uses more chips but is much more efficient. They're going to have to do this to compete with Spondoolies.

IMO, they are only shipping 5 board Neptunes because this was the cheapest configuration to get to the 3THs target. But my guess it isn't what they had originally planned nor what is optimal for the new ASIC.

There is some very compelling evidence that supports this hypothesis. But the most glaringly obvious is the single PCI power connector. They're not so stupid to design it to handle 420w. But they were compelled to squeeze as much hash out of each chip that they threw away common sense.

Remember "under promise, over deliver"? Yeah, not to so much anymore. The new motto... "We deliver dangerous crap because we're cheap bastards."

1 month ago (after I saw the picture of the PCB with only one 6-pin power connector) I wrote an alarming email to Sam directly. Sam replied within one hour, and replied he would discuss the issue with the developers.  
My guess is that they have added a second power-connector (on the opposite side, so you cannot see it on the box photos), or.... they calculated that one connector was still appropriate, which would mean that only 200 to 250 watt is used per PCB.  If this last is the case then they have a rabbit-in-the-hat : one box gives 600 Ghs running 250 Watt gives 0.41 W/Ghs............

But my fear is that they didn't either add a connector nor have a 0.41 W/Gs.....
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June 19, 2014, 10:40:43 AM
 #35129

Knc Cloud: https://www.knccloud.com/blog/archive

"Dear ,

As you are a Neptune customer, you are entitled to take up our Plan B offer to “Hash While You Wait”, or to convert your Neptune order to a KnC Titan.

To activate your account please click the following URL/Link where you can choose your option and setup your KnCCloud account.

Your hashing will begin on Monday the 23rd of June from 9am UTC, provided you’ve made that choice on the Neptune Order Options.

To ensure you receive all the power you've paid for, please ensure that your account is up to date with your wallet address to receive your Plan B mined Bitcoins.

Hashing will stop as soon as your unit ships out from our factory.

If you have any questions please contact: info@kncminer.com

Thanks
KnC Miner Team"

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June 19, 2014, 10:46:08 AM
 #35130

There is an IC company that has or is in the process of completing a 15 or 14nm chip but it too isn't an ASIC or GPU design.

Ofc there is since the industry never stands still, only Intel (however their 14nm launches has been delayed) is currently moving over anything major to 14nm and they are usually 12-18 months ahead of the rest of the industry when it comes to production. Usually when foundries starts talking about a node you can be sure that their mass production is still 12 months+ away. Samsung will probably start their 14nm production next year, good luck getting access to their fabs for something like btc mining however. 20/16nm at TSMC/Globalfoundries will be as good as it's get for 2014/2015. The only opening I can see in that time frame iirc is that GF struck some kind of deal with Samsung on 14nm tech utilization, so they could be converting sooner rather than later. However converting a fab is not something that you do overnight exactly.

Also doesn't change the fact that for every new process node the costs have increased exponentially for RND while the gains in power reduction/performance increases have been decreasing. It used to be that you should jump on a new process node asap since you could offer a product with better performance metrics at a lower price, these days however it makes more sense to wait until the new tech has matured unless performance/density are your only concerns.

The whole argument has been about why you should go 20nm instead of 28nm when the NRE costs are higher while the cost  for performance x with efficiency y is the same on both processes. Currently it costs more to develop for 20nm than 28 while you gain almost nothing in terms of performance/$, this will change with time however when the process matures and price comes down for manufacturing.

However if you like KNC simply make someone else pay for your NRE costs it made a lot more sense to jump directly to 20 vs 28nm. They could have offered the same kind of performance at the same price with a new better 28nm design and delivered it sooner, they wouldn't have filled up their orders as easily however since "OMG 20NM SO GUD MUST HAVE" mentality. In the long term KNC will be the winners since costs of 20nm wafers will go down faster than the cost of 28nm so they will be able to fill their datorhall(s) with higher density chips paying less/GH, and we paid for it pretty much.

Actually your incorrect about Intel being the only silicon manufacture of 14nm size dies. So get your facts straight! LOL

TSMC does 14 and 16nm for selected clients.  They want to go to 10nm by 2015.

http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1264668

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June 19, 2014, 10:50:35 AM
 #35131

My new worthless prediction (I'm batting .000, lol)...

After all of the 5 piece preorders are delivered (or maybe before), KNC will introduce a new product that uses more chips but is much more efficient. They're going to have to do this to compete with Spondoolies.

IMO, they are only shipping 5 board Neptunes because this was the cheapest configuration to get to the 3THs target. But my guess it isn't what they had originally planned nor what is optimal for the new ASIC.

There is some very compelling evidence that supports this hypothesis. But the most glaringly obvious is the single PCI power connector. They're not so stupid to design it to handle 420w. But they were compelled to squeeze as much hash out of each chip that they threw away common sense.

Remember "under promise, over deliver"? Yeah, not to so much anymore. The new motto... "We deliver dangerous crap because we're cheap bastards."

unfortunately you are likely correct on the above....man knc had quite the rapid slide to the other side so to speak...$$$ talk we are irrelevant now off to do the BFL way...find 'more' newbies..hope they don't read bitcoin talk or google before they buy knc stuff

Searing
 

Old Style Legacy Plug & Play BBS System. Get it from www.synchro.net. Updated 1/1/19. It also works with Windows 10 and allows 16 bit DOS game doors on the same Win 10 Machine! Five Minute Install! Look it over uninstalls just as fast! Freeware! Full BBS System! It is a frigging hoot!:)
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June 19, 2014, 12:13:52 PM
 #35132

Just received this email now from KNC after asking them about the plan B.

From: Natalie [mailto:info@kncminer.com]
Sent: June-19-14 7:43 AM
To:
Subject: [kncminer] Re: Order # 17277

Hi,

We expect to ship to Batch 1 pre-order customers this week and to Batch 2 pre-order customers before the end of the month.
More news about this and hosted hashing will be released shortly.

Best regards 
Med vänlig hälsning
Natalie Forslund
Kncminer
www.kncminer.com
Office: +46 8559 253
20
smoothrunnings
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June 19, 2014, 12:28:25 PM
 #35133

My new worthless prediction (I'm batting .000, lol)...

After all of the 5 piece preorders are delivered (or maybe before), KNC will introduce a new product that uses more chips but is much more efficient. They're going to have to do this to compete with Spondoolies.

IMO, they are only shipping 5 board Neptunes because this was the cheapest configuration to get to the 3THs target. But my guess it isn't what they had originally planned nor what is optimal for the new ASIC.

There is some very compelling evidence that supports this hypothesis. But the most glaringly obvious is the single PCI power connector. They're not so stupid to design it to handle 420w. But they were compelled to squeeze as much hash out of each chip that they threw away common sense.

Remember "under promise, over deliver"? Yeah, not to so much anymore. The new motto... "We deliver dangerous crap because we're cheap bastards."

unfortunately you are likely correct on the above....man knc had quite the rapid slide to the other side so to speak...$$$ talk we are irrelevant now off to do the BFL way...find 'more' newbies..hope they don't read bitcoin talk or google before they buy knc stuff

Searing
 

RELAX! LOL

Neptune's aren't even shipping yet so no one can do anything but speculate the hashing rate. Smiley

As for KNC's fuck ups it happens with every company, you don't have to be a bitcoin hardware manufacture to fuck up...look at GM (or was Ford) who built cars that caused more than 13 deaths, that far out weighs KNC's fuck ups for sure! Smiley
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June 19, 2014, 12:35:10 PM
 #35134

Updated the Difficultly vs Return chart.



Document with various hardware manufactures and estimated shutdown time.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmeuPljmUNHCdEpqX2RmMDFwemJyLURVUWFtZ3J3aGc&usp=sharing
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June 19, 2014, 01:20:37 PM
 #35135

If the purchaser of the Products (referred to as the Customer) accepts KnCMiner’s offer and connects to KnCMiner’s Mining Services, the Customer automatically accepts that these General Terms shall apply for the provided Mining Services and that the Mining Services provided by KnCMiner shall constitute the Customer’s sole and only compensation due to the delay of the Products and shall supersede and extinguish all prior agreements relating to compensation for the delayed Products.

From KNC terms and conditions.  If you accept the hashing while you wait does this mean you do not get double your order?

1smracer15yDLhJG27fd7GV3tegcNjtg2
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June 19, 2014, 01:41:41 PM
 #35136

Knc had a lot of confusing I think

We need something more clear
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June 19, 2014, 01:44:50 PM
 #35137

If the purchaser of the Products (referred to as the Customer) accepts KnCMiner’s offer and connects to KnCMiner’s Mining Services, the Customer automatically accepts that these General Terms shall apply for the provided Mining Services and that the Mining Services provided by KnCMiner shall constitute the Customer’s sole and only compensation due to the delay of the Products and shall supersede and extinguish all prior agreements relating to compensation for the delayed Products.

From KNC terms and conditions.  If you accept the hashing while you wait does this mean you do not get double your order?


That is a very very good point.....imho you are making

Old Style Legacy Plug & Play BBS System. Get it from www.synchro.net. Updated 1/1/19. It also works with Windows 10 and allows 16 bit DOS game doors on the same Win 10 Machine! Five Minute Install! Look it over uninstalls just as fast! Freeware! Full BBS System! It is a frigging hoot!:)
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June 19, 2014, 02:09:18 PM
 #35138

I just received confirmation from KNC that that cloud hashing offer replaces the second miner offer. You cannot have both.
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June 19, 2014, 02:10:35 PM
 #35139

Is the cloud hashing being powered by old Jupiters of new Neptunes???
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June 19, 2014, 02:11:34 PM
 #35140

Knc had a lot of confusing I think

We need something more clear


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