Biodom
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June 14, 2014, 03:11:56 PM |
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The cost/transistor for 20nm will most likely drop below 28nm in 6-12months time and then KNC will have an advantage over the competitors who still are stuck on 28nm as long as they can match them on efficiency/density.
They will not have any advantage because they were never interested in designing the most efficient machine, they were interested in taking money for pre-orders to do OTHER projects (aka datorhall).
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The Avenger
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June 14, 2014, 06:24:38 PM |
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Firstly, what happened to Plan B and CD batch Neptune customers getting cloud hashing in "early June"?
Did anyone really fall for this promise? KNC always wait until the last minute, then make excuses to cover their lies. They knew very well in early October (looking at how many units they had to ship and how many were coming off the production line each day) there was no way they could ship all Jupiters by the 15th October, like they promised. Rather than tell people when they knew it, they didn't announce this until after they missed this date - 16th October. Likewise with November Jupiters, they didn't announce until the day they were supposed to start shipping (i.e. 15th November) that there would be 2 weeks delay. They always mislead people into thinking everything is going just fine, then wait to the last moment to announce delays/fuckups. This will be especially true when it comes to them having to give away a single bitcoin to their competitors, i.e. customers. So don't expect anything until the July 1st "unexpected delays" newsletter
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"I am not The Avenger" 1AthxGvreWbkmtTXed6EQfjXMXXdSG7dD6
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smoothrunnings
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June 14, 2014, 06:43:53 PM |
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Completely disagree with you. They aren't going with a die shrink, they are improving their design and building it on a 20nm process. Didn't know they changed the design. Got a source for that? I have only heard that 20nm is not cost effective as you can see here: A 20nm GPU has a different design than a ASIC 20nm chip. I can see Nvidia having troubles designing and manufacturing their own custom 20nm chips, that's likely, but comparing them to KNC's chip is like comparing an apple to orange. There is an IC company that has or is in the process of completing a 15 or 14nm chip but it too isn't an ASIC or GPU design.
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rograz
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June 14, 2014, 07:36:17 PM |
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There is an IC company that has or is in the process of completing a 15 or 14nm chip but it too isn't an ASIC or GPU design.
Ofc there is since the industry never stands still, only Intel (however their 14nm launches has been delayed) is currently moving over anything major to 14nm and they are usually 12-18 months ahead of the rest of the industry when it comes to production. Usually when foundries starts talking about a node you can be sure that their mass production is still 12 months+ away. Samsung will probably start their 14nm production next year, good luck getting access to their fabs for something like btc mining however. 20/16nm at TSMC/Globalfoundries will be as good as it's get for 2014/2015. The only opening I can see in that time frame iirc is that GF struck some kind of deal with Samsung on 14nm tech utilization, so they could be converting sooner rather than later. However converting a fab is not something that you do overnight exactly. Also doesn't change the fact that for every new process node the costs have increased exponentially for RND while the gains in power reduction/performance increases have been decreasing. It used to be that you should jump on a new process node asap since you could offer a product with better performance metrics at a lower price, these days however it makes more sense to wait until the new tech has matured unless performance/density are your only concerns. The whole argument has been about why you should go 20nm instead of 28nm when the NRE costs are higher while the cost for performance x with efficiency y is the same on both processes. Currently it costs more to develop for 20nm than 28 while you gain almost nothing in terms of performance/$, this will change with time however when the process matures and price comes down for manufacturing. However if you like KNC simply make someone else pay for your NRE costs it made a lot more sense to jump directly to 20 vs 28nm. They could have offered the same kind of performance at the same price with a new better 28nm design and delivered it sooner, they wouldn't have filled up their orders as easily however since "OMG 20NM SO GUD MUST HAVE" mentality. In the long term KNC will be the winners since costs of 20nm wafers will go down faster than the cost of 28nm so they will be able to fill their datorhall(s) with higher density chips paying less/GH, and we paid for it pretty much.
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jimmothy
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June 14, 2014, 08:26:48 PM |
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There is an IC company that has or is in the process of completing a 15 or 14nm chip but it too isn't an ASIC or GPU design.
Ofc there is since the industry never stands still, only Intel (however their 14nm launches has been delayed) is currently moving over anything major to 14nm and they are usually 12-18 months ahead of the rest of the industry when it comes to production. Usually when foundries starts talking about a node you can be sure that their mass production is still 12 months+ away. Samsung will probably start their 14nm production next year, good luck getting access to their fabs for something like btc mining however. 20/16nm at TSMC/Globalfoundries will be as good as it's get for 2014/2015. The only opening I can see in that time frame iirc is that GF struck some kind of deal with Samsung on 14nm tech utilization, so they could be converting sooner rather than later. However converting a fab is not something that you do overnight exactly. Also doesn't change the fact that for every new process node the costs have increased exponentially for RND while the gains in power reduction/performance increases have been decreasing. It used to be that you should jump on a new process node asap since you could offer a product with better performance metrics at a lower price, these days however it makes more sense to wait until the new tech has matured unless performance/density are your only concerns. The whole argument has been about why you should go 20nm instead of 28nm when the NRE costs are higher while the cost for performance x with efficiency y is the same on both processes. Currently it costs more to develop for 20nm than 28 while you gain almost nothing in terms of performance/$, this will change with time however when the process matures and price comes down for manufacturing. However if you like KNC simply make someone else pay for your NRE costs it made a lot more sense to jump directly to 20 vs 28nm. They could have offered the same kind of performance at the same price with a new better 28nm design and delivered it sooner, they wouldn't have filled up their orders as easily however since "OMG 20NM SO GUD MUST HAVE" mentality. In the long term KNC will be the winners since costs of 20nm wafers will go down faster than the cost of 28nm so they will be able to fill their datorhall(s) with higher density chips paying less/GH, and we paid for it pretty much. To simplify what you said: Jumping to 20nm using customer funds = great idea Jumping to 20nm using your own funds = possibly a good idea In terms of $/gh, knc will definitely have an advantage as soon as manufacturing costs for 20nm come down, but I am sure we will see plenty of competing 20/16/14nm and even some highly optimized 28nm chips by then. Not sure how knc's 20nm chip will fare in terms of $/GH and W/GH but I doubt that they come out on top for both efficiency and cost. At least without a design improvement. Also you mentioned that knc chips are capable of ~0.7w/gh at the wall. Got a source?
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RoadStress
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June 14, 2014, 09:16:08 PM |
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Also you mentioned that knc chips are capable of ~0.7w/gh at the wall. Got a source?
This comes from KnC's statement that the Neptune will require 30% less power than the Jupiter. No final/real numbers yet because there are no Neptunes.
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jimmothy
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June 14, 2014, 09:26:14 PM |
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Also you mentioned that knc chips are capable of ~0.7w/gh at the wall. Got a source?
This comes from KnC's statement that the Neptune will require 30% less power than the Jupiter. No final/real numbers yet because there are no Neptunes. No he said that the jupiter chips are capable of 0.7w/gh at the wall. If that is possible then 0.5w/gh at the wall on 20nm should be possible.
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RoadStress
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June 14, 2014, 09:36:20 PM |
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Also you mentioned that knc chips are capable of ~0.7w/gh at the wall. Got a source?
This comes from KnC's statement that the Neptune will require 30% less power than the Jupiter. No final/real numbers yet because there are no Neptunes. No he said that the jupiter chips are capable of 0.7w/gh at the wall. If that is possible then 0.5w/gh at the wall on 20nm should be possible. Oh didn't got the Jupiter part. Well ok, but even so...having a normal 3TH/s Neptune at 0.7W/Gh you will have ~2.2TH/s(or something close) if you downclock it to 0.5W/GH which would suck considering that it costs so much.
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jimmothy
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June 14, 2014, 09:47:40 PM |
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Oh didn't got the Jupiter part. Well ok, but even so...having a normal 3TH/s Neptune at 0.7W/Gh you will have ~2.2TH/s(or something close) if you downclock it to 0.5W/GH which would suck considering that it costs so much.
If they can achieve 0.5w/gh at the wall, there is no reason they couldn't give you enough chips for 3th/s. And if they give 3th/s worth of underclocked chips we might see 6th/s overclocked neptunes. It's pretty much up to knc how much hashrate they will give. Although they have shown they don't really give a shit about their customers so who knows.
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RoadStress
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June 14, 2014, 09:56:32 PM |
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Oh didn't got the Jupiter part. Well ok, but even so...having a normal 3TH/s Neptune at 0.7W/Gh you will have ~2.2TH/s(or something close) if you downclock it to 0.5W/GH which would suck considering that it costs so much.
If they can achieve 0.5w/gh at the wall, there is no reason they couldn't give you enough chips for 3th/s. And if they give 3th/s worth of underclocked chips we might see 6th/s overclocked neptunes. It's pretty much up to knc how much hashrate they will give. Although they have shown they don't really give a shit about their customers so who knows. There is no room in the case to put more chips so they can't do it. And even if they could why would they sell something underclocked? It means less chips for them and by now we all know that they are greedy cunts so they will never ship underclocked stuff.
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crashoveride54902
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June 14, 2014, 09:59:50 PM |
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Oh didn't got the Jupiter part. Well ok, but even so...having a normal 3TH/s Neptune at 0.7W/Gh you will have ~2.2TH/s(or something close) if you downclock it to 0.5W/GH which would suck considering that it costs so much.
If they can achieve 0.5w/gh at the wall, there is no reason they couldn't give you enough chips for 3th/s. And if they give 3th/s worth of underclocked chips we might see 6th/s overclocked neptunes. It's pretty much up to knc how much hashrate they will give. Although they have shown they don't really give a shit about their customers so who knows. There is no room in the case to put more chips so they can't do it. And even if they could why would they sell something underclocked? It means less chips for them and by now we all know that they are greedy cunts so they will never ship underclocked stuff. and what asic company isn't? if you name one yer brain dead
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Dreams of cyprto solving everything is slowly slipping away...Replaced by scams/hacks
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rograz
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June 14, 2014, 10:07:23 PM |
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Also you mentioned that knc chips are capable of ~0.7w/gh at the wall. Got a source?
Personal testing and guessing, I got mine to around 0,91-0,93w/GH at the wall while keeping it above 500GH, after that some of the cores started shutting down. So 0,7 should not be much of a problem since people underestimate how quickly efficiency diminishes/increases due to the exponential scaling with core voltage, all about how much performance you are prepared to sacrifice to get there. I can check out how low I can get it when I have physical access to my jupiter in case I mess something up and need to do a hard reset Depends as well on how low you are able to go for voltage in software as well on the Jupiter, not really a fan of doing hardware modifications to prove a point.
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samsonn25
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June 14, 2014, 10:32:11 PM |
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Energy use is secondary now that hashrate is 99.5 Billion and rising.
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jimmothy
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June 14, 2014, 10:44:31 PM |
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not really a fan of doing hardware modifications to prove a point. You don't need to, I was just curious if it had been done. And even if you couldn't reach 0.7w/gh with the old jupiter boards doesn't necessarily mean the chips can't. It is very possible the chips are capable of ~0.7w/gh but hashrate might suffer to the point that it's not worth it.
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s1gs3gv
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June 14, 2014, 11:08:00 PM |
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However if you like KNC simply make someone else pay for your NRE costs it made a lot more sense to jump directly to 20 vs 28nm.
Rogaz, sometimes you say something that encourages me to think you are a knowledgeable and insightful guy (forgive me if you are a girl) and sometimes you say something really stupid. KNC didn't make anybody pay for their NRE costs. People voluntarily entered into contracts for future delivery of a product (aka pre-order). This is no different that what Spondoolies is doing with the SP30. Given the economics of bitcoin mining and the difficulty in raising finance for bitcoin related activities from conventional sources, it is often the only way to go. Like Guy said in the Spondoolies thread IIRC … 'we don't have 27 million dollars to finance 3 SP30 batches.' No pre-orders, no SP30, no Neptune, no progress. There is a race on with bitcoin difficulty and there is no time to tinker around … ~L)L~
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raskul
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June 14, 2014, 11:25:16 PM Last edit: June 14, 2014, 11:45:08 PM by raskul |
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this thread used to be for the discussion about some Swedish lot - not a 'who's got the biggest dick' comparison thread.this should help; ps. before you even go there.. just because it's in my forking sig, it doesn't mean i'm currently discussing it. get.a.forking.life. now. KnC's 20nm process was never going to arrive on time - as per their fantasy-like 'schedule' and as a result I held off buying the Neptune (regardless of what happened in the meantime, i'm still mining - it's a hobby, it's not a life-and-death situation as some of these numpties seem to act as though it were). I am, however, more than happy with my 2nd hand Jupiter, which should still be keeping my house warm this winter, even if it's close to the bone on profitability by then. I just wanna keep in the loop with regards to these titanic thingiemajigs; I got friends who have bought into that one too, and I hope they do actually deliver. Whether something better comes out in the meantime, is yet to be seen. thanks for putting up with my rant.
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tips 1APp826DqjJBdsAeqpEstx6Q8hD4urac8a
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s1gs3gv
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ex uno plures
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June 14, 2014, 11:33:49 PM Last edit: June 14, 2014, 11:47:53 PM by s1gs3gv |
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this thread used to be for the discussion about some Swedish lot - not a 'who's got the biggest dick' comparison thread.this should help; ps. before you even go there.. just because it's in my fucking sig, it doesn't mean i'm currently discussing it. get.a.fucking.life. thanks. ^^^ abusive language ^^^ 'tis either the drink or the tourrette syndrome ^^^ forgive him dear lord he knows not what he does now … KNC's 20nm process is going to kick some butt soon. Stay tuned ... ~L)L~
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tolip_wen
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June 14, 2014, 11:40:59 PM |
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Oh didn't got the Jupiter part. Well ok, but even so...having a normal 3TH/s Neptune at 0.7W/Gh you will have ~2.2TH/s(or something close) if you downclock it to 0.5W/GH which would suck considering that it costs so much.
If they can achieve 0.5w/gh at the wall, there is no reason they couldn't give you enough chips for 3th/s. And if they give 3th/s worth of underclocked chips we might see 6th/s overclocked neptunes. It's pretty much up to knc how much hashrate they will give. Although they have shown they don't really give a shit about their customers so who knows. There is no room in the case to put more chips so they can't do it. And even if they could why would they sell something underclocked? It means less chips for them and by now we all know that they are greedy cunts so they will never ship underclocked stuff. I don't claim that KnCMiner can do it but, I can fit more ASIC in the case. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=313978.msg5535199#msg5535199I could fit 6-8 ASIC in a Oct./Nov. case WITH 2 PSU, 2 water pumps, 2 controller, and the radiator INSIDE the case. With external PSUs, pumps, and radiators cound get 12-16 ASIC in there. YMMV
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'twisted research and opinion' donations happily accepted @ 13362fxFAdrhagmCvSmFy4WoHrNRPG2V57 My sub 1337 vanity address
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s1gs3gv
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June 15, 2014, 12:20:57 AM |
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Just looking back through some of the goings on in this KNC thread. This one caught my eye: Raskul has proof that KNC won't get their 20nm chips until August … Yes, I would say that what I have, is proof that it will be august before they get their chips, however, it's my proof and you are not getting to see it seriously though ...because my source would get the sack and i'm not being held responsible for that. Information fed via me means it could be one of 300 employees who leaked this info - so my source is safe (well, until that employee resigns). Of course, we all know that it happened on the 2nd of June … http://forum.kncminer.com/forum/news-and-anouncments/44983-the-neptune-wafers-have-left-the-building~L)L~
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opentoe
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Personal text my ass....
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June 15, 2014, 12:26:38 AM |
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Fair warning to fellow KNCminers... Anyone holding BTC should beware that Gox will be liquidating coin soon to pay lawyer fees. Coinlab backed out, and Japan courts don't like Sunlot's (Brock Pierce & company) offer. date unknown, but the hearing is set for July 23rd.
How do I know they will be liquidating coin? Gox doesn't have the cash on hand to pay the fees, and they have entered liquidation proceedings according to Google Hangout and Gox notices. Being that the only other assets are a car, office furniture, and computer... there's no other option but to sell coin. There's simply nothing else to "liquidate" All this smells of coinage sell-off in late July, early August? Just be careful & ready.....
And who's going to give them the real money if they want to sell that much BTC? They couldn't even afford to pay the taxes on it if they tried to "cash" out. I think having Gox sink or swim and thinking about it is just paranoia. It's just another company in the blackhole of shit fraudulent bitcoin companies. They're old news now and I think their impact on the bitcoin community is pretty much over. Maybe just a tiny little bit repercussions and that's all now.
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