Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[jspielberg]

This argument has been going on quite a while, which I perceive as a good thing. It means that new people are still entering the bitcoin community.

The whole ROI discussion depends on your initial frame of reference.  If you are fiat centered then it is easy to get distorted by exchange rates and what not.

I prefer a BTC centric view when dealing with mining. 
Lets say you "invest" 50BTC at time t0 (roughly current Gox pricing for Jupiter to be on topic), and at the end of its useful life, t1 it has returned only 40 BTC. The miner investment was not a good decision as at time t0, you would have been better off in the long run (by 10 BTC) to have not "invested" in the miner. 

Now... if the hardware at the end of its useful life returns 60 BTC, then your investment was a good one and you made a 20% return.

If you start with a BTC frame of reference, then the math is easy... 40 (output) is less than 50 (input), ergo bad investment.  60 (output) is greater than 50 (input), congrats, great investment.  It is irrelevant if the exchange rate with your fiat of choice went to .0001 or 1,000,000. 

If you are in BTC only for profit, then I recommend buying BTC outright at an exchange.  If you are the kind of technical person that finds networking and system administration fun, get some miners you can comfortably afford and enjoy it. 

[1714218665]

1714218665

[markm]

This argument has been going on quite a while, which I perceive as a good thing. It means that new people are still entering the bitcoin community.

The whole ROI discussion depends on your initial frame of reference.  If you are fiat centered then it is easy to get distorted by exchange rates and what not.

I prefer a BTC centric view when dealing with mining.  
Lets say you "invest" 50BTC at time t0 (roughly current Gox pricing for Jupiter to be on topic), and at the end of its useful life, t1 it has returned only 40 BTC. The miner investment was not a good decision as at time t0, you would have been better off in the long run (by 10 BTC) to have not "invested" in the miner.  

Now... if the hardware at the end of its useful life returns 60 BTC, then your investment was a good one and you made a 20% return.

If you start with a BTC frame of reference, then the math is easy... 40 (output) is less than 50 (input), ergo bad investment.  60 (output) is greater than 50 (input), congrats, great investment.  It is irrelevant if the exchange rate with your fiat of choice went to .0001 or 1,000,000.  

If you are in BTC only for profit, then I recommend buying BTC outright at an exchange.  If you are the kind of technical person that finds networking and system administration fun, get some miners you can comfortably afford and enjoy it.  

Good luck buying at an exchange all the i0coins, coiledcoins, geistgeld or even groupcoins that a miner could have been mining for you using merged mining.

Heck you are even forgetting to mention buying some namecoins and devcoins and ixcoins along with bitcoins to make up for what you could have (merged) mined...

Its too late now to rake in lots of low difficulty i0coins and groupcoins with a miner, but coiledcoins and geistgeld a miner still gets them easier than buying them on an exchange as far as I know...

-MarkM-

[Bitcoinorama]

I wonder if there will be any problem combining several old power supplies to power knc miners, since I have few lying around.

Dude I would stick with the 80+ standard certification, downtime costs coin, killing your machine is also not profitable. Play it safe man. Love the username.

--

Also with regards to all this ROI nonsense. Two things;

1. Did the OG CPU/GPU miners know Bitcoin would increase the way it has? No. They were hoping it would, it's only now just began to gain momentum, and that depends on innovating mainstream uptake, ease of transaction, and availability to exchange, which is pretty sad most people concentrate on mining over this, it's where the profit really is.

This is because it takes brainpower to innovate and turning a box on takes none, and as a lot of the comments here prove Bitcoin mining is now full of the latter. I can only assume most are n00bs that have become interested subsequent to the media interest from the Cypriot ECB theft fallout, or were just plain daft prior, but I find it hard to believe many of the recent posts are from individuals, capable of handling command line code and GPU rig assembly, handle heat, etc. Clearly plugging in, and flicking 'on' is testing the limits of their intelligence, if they cannot navigate the reasoning behind recent hashrate multiples being the result of thr transition of GPU rigs --> what few ASICs devices have actually surfaced after the fraud that's occurred with BFL, and Bitsyncom.

Therefore you are still purchasing with the intention Bitcoin will move north over time, that is your real ROI if you must fixate. You'd have to be stupid to believe whilst profit margins over electricity exist people won't keep piling in to profit over a box they just plug in. How can you not expect this to got the way GPU farms once were? Oh right you were never there in the first place.

2. Ever heard of FinCEN (the US Finacial Crimes Enforcement Network), or the FSA (UK'sFinacial Services Auhority)?

NO Bitcoin mining company can promise a 'return on investment', promise to 'protection for your investment', or even mention the word; 'INVESTMENT', unless they have met ALL the requirements of a heavily regulated finacial services product. None of them have. It is illegal. This is why under Bitsyncom's 'No Bullshit Terms', they should actively be packing their pants, as they are a US incorporated company that promised just that, and claimed to price accordingly. This is very, very serious and any company offering such terms is quite frankly, screwed, and lying to their customers.

If I purchase Avalon Unit right now when can I expect to receive my unit?

At the time of writing Batch #3 is expect to start shipping early May.

How is each batch’s unit price determined?

The price of each unit is the current mining difficulty which at the time of writing, just got readjusted to about 6,695,826. We take that number and multiply it by two ( predicting the network speed will double. ) and calculate the return in a thirty day window, which is about 75 bitcoins. See this site for more details.

Avalon ASIC Chip
The no bullshit, no fine print terms of sale
the only payment accepted is Bitcoin.
these chips will be available until at least end of the year, 2013.
spec and various information is available on the wiki
the chips being sold are packaged and tested.
the lead time on the chips is 9 to 10 weeks,
made to order from TSMC foundry, this also means no refunds.
the order quantity is 10,000 chips.
the chips are identical to those in the Avalon units.
communication protocol, reference board design can be found on github.
everything will be open source from FPGA to PCB design.
30 sample chips will be provided 4 weeks into ordering per 10,000 chips.
we do not offer technical support of any kind, this is final.
if you do not know what to do with the reference design / packaged chips, please do not purchase.
Please read the above carefully, as with all things Bitcoin one should treat this as an investment and make the decision best for you based on the liquid-able funds available at the moment when placing an order.

I accept the terms and the potential risks involved with placing an order.

[Biomech]

Why even try to reason with a troll?  They're like Democrats - they don't let inconveinient things like facts interfere with their vision of reality...

On the other hand, as we all know Republicans are widely known for their rationality.

I consider it a good day when I manage to piss off a Democrat and a Republican in the same sentence. It usually involves logic

[klee]

Why even try to reason with a troll?  They're like Democrats - they don't let inconveinient things like facts interfere with their vision of reality...

On the other hand, as we all know Republicans are widely known for their rationality.

I consider it a good day when I manage to piss off a Democrat and a Republican in the same sentence. It usually involves logic

Your foto reminds me of Al Jourgensen  

[Biomech]

Wait your image shows that you will ROI by start of Jan? What the F are you on about then?

Yes you will get a return of a whole $400 for Saturn, and $1,500 for Jupiter!!! GREAT SUCCESS!!!!

That's not merely ROI, which is in fact ANY income generated, it's a profit ABOVE breakeven, even given the cost of electricity. That time frame of breakeven and positive ROI is an accountant's wet dream, not a pessimistic outlook. Three months to see a profit above breakeven on expensive equipment is stupendous. You aren't merely spreading FUD here, you are showing a complete lack of any sort of business sense.

That is in addition to the other less tangible profits, such as making bitcoin more secure, more available, and more tradeable. All of these are possible, even likely outcomes of the massive influx of ASIC based mining equipment. I personally would be happy to hit breakeven or a bit above in six months on ANY fuckin' investment, let alone something as speculative as this. And as has been pointed out repeatedly, those are rather pessimistic numbers.

On the subject of Return on Investment, I have to say that most of you are misusing the term rather badly. Even those who I agree with Return on investment is simply making an income from your investment, whether or not it reaches breakeven or profitability. Breakeven seems to be the term most of you are referring to as ROI, whereas anything above that is profit, or positive ROI. There are basically three scenarios in which these devices will make zero ROI.

1. You give up and never plug the bitch in.

2. It's a total scam. Just a box of fans, in which case it won't mine.

3. It's broken on delivery. In which case a reputable company will try to make you whole. Given the nature and declining profitability of such devices, I would hope they offer some additional boards for the loss of time in such a case. Not all companies are BFL, and unlike many here, I don't think even they started out with the intention of fraud.

[Biomech]

Did you even listen to anything I said? Harder to double by Feb/march onwards. And did you even look at my mining cal link?

And you do realise a Jup will most likely run faster than 400 yeah?

http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/a/46d15997b5

Still ROI with hosting, with oct del instead of late sept, with lowest predicted hash rate of miner (400), with constant doubling.

You know what. F it. Another idiot added to ignore.

He can't do basic math, he thinks percentages rule the difficulty. He doesn't understand end game concepts.

It is such an easy concept, thousands of people understand it but he does not.

You need to stop trying to teach the retard, instead just point laugh and walk away.

^^ pointing and Laughing, "End Game Concepts" Did you learn that in Plox teach Engrishes fast?

actually Theory of Games is where the term comes from. That's the theoretical underpinnings of military intelligence, as well as most advanced games, Chaos (Complexity) Theory, and several other useful data models for modeling and loosely predicting wide scale events.

My knowledge of English is exhaustive, and yours is pathetic. You should not step into a battle of wits unarmed, as not all of us are gentlemen enough not to accept the easy victory.

[Biomech]

This argument has been going on quite a while, which I perceive as a good thing. It means that new people are still entering the bitcoin community.

The whole ROI discussion depends on your initial frame of reference.  If you are fiat centered then it is easy to get distorted by exchange rates and what not.

I prefer a BTC centric view when dealing with mining. 
Lets say you "invest" 50BTC at time t0 (roughly current Gox pricing for Jupiter to be on topic), and at the end of its useful life, t1 it has returned only 40 BTC. The miner investment was not a good decision as at time t0, you would have been better off in the long run (by 10 BTC) to have not "invested" in the miner. 

Now... if the hardware at the end of its useful life returns 60 BTC, then your investment was a good one and you made a 20% return.

If you start with a BTC frame of reference, then the math is easy... 40 (output) is less than 50 (input), ergo bad investment.  60 (output) is greater than 50 (input), congrats, great investment.  It is irrelevant if the exchange rate with your fiat of choice went to .0001 or 1,000,000. 

If you are in BTC only for profit, then I recommend buying BTC outright at an exchange.  If you are the kind of technical person that finds networking and system administration fun, get some miners you can comfortably afford and enjoy it. 

Well said, sir! +1

[Biomech]

Why even try to reason with a troll?  They're like Democrats - they don't let inconveinient things like facts interfere with their vision of reality...

On the other hand, as we all know Republicans are widely known for their rationality.

I consider it a good day when I manage to piss off a Democrat and a Republican in the same sentence. It usually involves logic

Your foto reminds me of Al Jourgensen  

I really should know that name. But it's not coming to me Several people have told me I look like Tommy Shaw, and I'm good with that! 

[plasmoske]

Yeah well I know what the term ROI means but pretty much here assumes / acknowledges that it means profit past break even.

How that came to be? No idea but it beats writing

WHEre are the profits pAst break evEn? Where ArE da CHiPs??? etc 

[crumbs]

...
That's not merely ROI, which is in fact ANY income generated, it's a profit ABOVE breakeven, even given the cost of electricity. That time frame of breakeven and positive ROI is an accountant's wet dream, not a pessimistic outlook. Three months to see a profit above breakeven on expensive equipment is stupendous. You aren't merely spreading FUD here, you are showing a complete lack of any sort of business sense. ...

First, a simple ROI formula: ROI = (Gains – Cost)/Cost.  That's the definition.  The term is otherwise defined by context.  When ROI is given in dollars instead of percentage or fraction, assume ROI = Gains - Cost.

Breakeven in three month is great for investments which do not depreciate over time, or depreciate slowly.
Mining gear depreciates quickly.  
Its profitability over time also drops at an exponential rate.  If its costs are not completely recouped within three months, it is unlikely that the costs will ever be recouped.

Example for the math-challenged:

If you slaughter a cow, and take the beef to the market, most of your profits will happen in the first few hours.  At the end of the day, the meat will be suitable only for dogs, and profits will be insignificant.  Do not expect any more profits the following day, the day after that, or the day after that day -- your meat is rotten, no moar monyz 4 U.

If you do not make ROI on your slaughtered cow in the first day, you don't make ROI in a month, two months, or even a year.  

Math.

[Biomech]

Yeah well I know what the term ROI means but pretty much here assumes / acknowledges that it means profit past break even.

How that came to be? No idea but it beats writing

WHEre are the profits pAst break evEn? Where ArE da CHiPs??? etc 

Noted. I come from a management background, and the precise use of the terms is important in that context. The way it's used here is a bit confusing. Obviously I did get it, though I still don't understand the people that want to breakeven the day they get their machine. Ok, I understand the desire, I just don't see how they can reasonably expect it. Early adopters, maybe, but those days were gone before I ever investigated bitcoin. Which is unfortunate for me, but it's my own ignorance and or lack of due diligence about three years back. I am not actually in the race on the first ones shipped, as I was unable to raise the money. I might be in for their November price drop, though, and I expect a fair ROI pretty quickly, with a breakeven within a year even reinvesting my earnings into more mining equipment. And that is even under the assumption that the hashrate and difficulty continue their parabolic climb for some time.

I want to be in this for the long run, as I find Bitcoin to be immensely interesting and possibly even to be a new way of exchanging goods and services outside of the ever present bankster/Government Cabal that currently drives business models. I think it has the potential to lead to a great deal of decentralization of small entrepreneurs and of money itself. I'll never see it as equivalent to precious metals as a store of value, but as a means of exchange and easy liquidity, it has pretty fantastic potential. It is my hope to make sufficient gains in both standard fiat and precious metals over the course of a year or so that I can start to use BTC as my primary means of acquisition of goods and services. I also hope to be better involved in promoting that very thing, thus creating wider acceptance of bitcoin. It's not a hobby, per se, but an extension of my agorist leanings and dislike of central authorities. I see bitcoin as very subversive to the established and decaying order, and therefore think it worth accepting even if there are short term losses.

That being said, I think most everyone who gets a large scale ASIC device is likely to make a profit in a very reasonable time frame.

I've also been awake for better than fifty hours, so I apologize if this is a bit disjointed

[kano]

Summer just ended here in Aus ...

[titomane]

Summer just ended here in Aus ...

Not to sound pedantic. But to be exact the summer ends on 21th September  +-12hrs in the northern hemisphere

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=170332.msg3043021#msg3043021

[kano]

Summer just ended here in Aus ...

Not to sound pedantic. But to be exact the summer ends on 21th September  +-12hrs in the northern hemisphere

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=170332.msg3043021#msg3043021

You could be even more pedantic and point out that Winter just ended here in Aus

[titomane]

Summer just ended here in Aus ...

Not to sound pedantic. But to be exact the summer ends on 21th September  +-12hrs in the northern hemisphere

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=170332.msg3043021#msg3043021

You could be even more pedantic and point out that Winter just ended here in Aus

When u writing Aus ... I do not know if it's Australia or Austria

[kano]

Summer just ended here in Aus ...

Not to sound pedantic. But to be exact the summer ends on 21th September  +-12hrs in the northern hemisphere

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=170332.msg3043021#msg3043021

You could be even more pedantic and point out that Winter just ended here in Aus

When u writing Aus ... I do not know if it's Australia or Austria

The Matrix (first movie) was in Australia - Sydney ...
... yes I'm referring to my Avatar

[DPoS]

Summer just ended here in Aus ...

I think they already thanked you and went ahead and got 30% gain tweaking

With all these ROI pissing on here, what hashrate are you all using?  Jupiter's will probably be 480-520Gh

[Loredo]

You could be even more pedantic and point out that Winter just ended here in Aus

When u writing Aus ... I do not know if it's Australia or Austria

Well...no.  I just consulted a globe and a calendar, and...know what?  Winter isn't just about to end in Austria.  And certainly, if you check what the weather has been in Texas, not in Austin, either.   

[kkooks]

Where can I read up on the product development status of KNC Miners? Im curious why there seems to be so little chatter abut deliveries since they are supposed to start shipping in October-- are they on track?

Your help is greatly appreciated!