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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3049457 times)
vulgartrendkill
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September 10, 2013, 09:22:30 PM
 #9041

Which makes me wonder - are we going to also need a separate 5v power supply adaptor? Or is there such an adaptor that can convert one of the connectors from a PSU to that fitting?

Possibly the molex to the right provides power for it?

I believe that is the case
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September 10, 2013, 09:26:15 PM
 #9042

Which makes me wonder - are we going to also need a separate 5v power supply adaptor? Or is there such an adaptor that can convert one of the connectors from a PSU to that fitting?

Possibly the molex to the right provides power?

I assume so as well, since we have a psu for the asics already in place.
The small 5V connector might be used in cases (not in ours) where you run the SoC board and nothing else....like a Rpi.

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September 10, 2013, 09:27:36 PM
 #9043

I happen to have one of these PSUs kicking around. I've looked at the specs and it seems like it would fit the bill, but I'd appreciate a 2nd set of eyes. Any glaring reason that this unit wouldn't be a decent PSU for a Jupiter?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817103088

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September 10, 2013, 09:28:33 PM
 #9044

Alright guys, some of you have a lot more knowledge then me in the PSU area, so if you could help me out here, I'd appreciate it.
I have a Saturn on order, which I plan to upgrade to Jupiter once they start offering the modules separately. The PSU that I have picked out seems like a perfect fit to me, and at a fairly good price. If you guys could look it over and let me know, that would be great. And if it is a good one, it could turn out to be a good deal for everyone.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139011

Should be the minimum acceptable wattage for a power supply.  I'd recommend going with something around 1kw... They are much more efficient at 50 % load versus 80 - 90 % load.

That hasn't been true for the last decade but it is a myth which dies hard.

The minimum efficiency for an 80-Gold PSU is 90% at 50% load and 87% at 100% load.  The curve is very flat.

For example here is the test for the PSU linked to:
http://www.plugloadsolutions.com/psu_reports/CORSAIR_CMPSU-850HX_ECOS%201464_850W_Report.pdf

50% load = 90.38% efficiency
75% load = ~90.0% efficiency (estimated due to their horribly low res chart)
100% load = 87.06% efficiency

So using a larger PSU would save you maybe 1% in power, 3% under the extreme example of 100% load vs 50% load.  At 1% power on 600W 24/7 would save you 53 kWh per year.  At $0.10 per kWh we are talking $5.  Spending $50 more on a PSU makes the break even 10+ years. At once time PSU were pretty shitty with narrow "sweet spot" (40% to 60% of peak power) and horribly efficiency outside of that (<70%).  Those days have been gone for a long time with most quality PSU having an almost flat efficiency "curve" from 20% to 100%.  It is nice companies keep making more and more efficient PSU (Platinum and Titanium are also possible) but once you get to ~90% it starts being diminishing returns.    Still Google and facebook use 12V only PSU and the get about 95%+ efficiency.  Really there is no reason for PC PSU to be as complex as they are.  Maybe some future standard will improve that. 




Thank you very much for that. That was similar to my line of thinking. I couldn't justify the $50 difference in price, when the efficiency of the unit won't be that huge.

My mind is now set to that unit. :-)
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September 10, 2013, 09:38:49 PM
 #9045

Which makes me wonder - are we going to also need a separate 5v power supply adaptor? Or is there such an adaptor that can convert one of the connectors from a PSU to that fitting?

Yes, I think you will need a 5v connector as well.  I believe all ATX power supplies have them.  When KNC announced the case, they mentioned the 5v connector as well as the 12v.

https://www.kncminer.com/news/news-28
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September 10, 2013, 09:41:46 PM
Last edit: September 10, 2013, 10:54:21 PM by Wesly
 #9046

Alright guys, some of you have a lot more knowledge then me in the PSU area, so if you could help me out here, I'd appreciate it.
I have a Saturn on order, which I plan to upgrade to Jupiter once they start offering the modules separately. The PSU that I have picked out seems like a perfect fit to me, and at a fairly good price. If you guys could look it over and let me know, that would be great. And if it is a good one, it could turn out to be a good deal for everyone.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139011

Should be the minimum acceptable wattage for a power supply.  I'd recommend going with something around 1kw... They are much more efficient at 50 % load versus 80 - 90 % load.

That hasn't been true for the last decade but it is a myth which dies hard.

The minimum efficiency for an 80-Gold PSU is 90% at 50% load and 87% at 100% load.  The curve is very flat.

For example here is the test for the PSU linked to:
http://www.plugloadsolutions.com/psu_reports/CORSAIR_CMPSU-850HX_ECOS%201464_850W_Report.pdf

50% load = 90.38% efficiency
75% load = ~90.0% efficiency (estimated due to their horribly low res chart)
100% load = 87.06% efficiency

So using a larger PSU would save you maybe 1% in power, 3% under the extreme example of 100% load vs 50% load.  At 1% power on 600W 24/7 would save you 53 kWh per year.  At $0.10 per kWh we are talking $5.  Spending $50 more on a PSU makes the break even 10+ years. At once time PSU were pretty shitty with narrow "sweet spot" (40% to 60% of peak power) and horribly efficiency outside of that (<70%).  Those days have been gone for a long time with most quality PSU having an almost flat efficiency "curve" from 20% to 100%.  It is nice companies keep making more and more efficient PSU (Platinum and Titanium are also possible) but once you get to ~90% it starts being diminishing returns.    Still Google and facebook use 12V only PSU and the get about 95%+ efficiency.  Really there is no reason for PC PSU to be as complex as they are.  Maybe some future standard will improve that.  


There has been quite a bit of discussion on which PSU to purchase at the KNC forum.  The bigger 1000+ Watts PSU will not only offer better efficiency at around 50% load, but the lighter load (relative to max load) will also be easier on the PSU, extending its life and reliability.  The extra wattage headroom might also be useful in case the KNC chip turns out to be highly-overclockable.  On the same PSU KNC forum thread, one of the KNC staff has already leaked that Jupiter will run at an expected speed of 500 GH/s!

http://forum.kncminer.com/forum/main-category/hardware/107-psu-recommendation-jupiter-the-largest-planet/page3
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September 10, 2013, 09:44:55 PM
 #9047

Which makes me wonder - are we going to also need a separate 5v power supply adaptor? Or is there such an adaptor that can convert one of the connectors from a PSU to that fitting?

Yes, I think you will need a 5v connector as well.  I believe all ATX power supplies have them.  When KNC announced the case, they mentioned the 5v connector as well as the 12v.

https://www.kncminer.com/news/news-28

Have read this too, but I guess the 12V are the asic power supply.
Molex is 12V and 5V, so you have the choice => http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molex#Molex_connector

Does your psu have such a small 5V connector ? Did they mention we need anything in addition to the psu (except for the 'paper-clip') ?
Both no, isn't it ?

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September 10, 2013, 09:55:33 PM
 #9048

Which makes me wonder - are we going to also need a separate 5v power supply adaptor? Or is there such an adaptor that can convert one of the connectors from a PSU to that fitting?

Yes, I think you will need a 5v connector as well.  I believe all ATX power supplies have them.  When KNC announced the case, they mentioned the 5v connector as well as the 12v.

https://www.kncminer.com/news/news-28

Have read this too, but I guess the 12V are the asic power supply.
Molex is 12V and 5V, so you have the choice => http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molex#Molex_connector

Does your psu have such a small 5V connector ? Did they mention we need anything in addition to the psu (except for the 'paper-clip') ?
Both no, isn't it ?
I think that's it. The molex to the right of the beaglebone is probably providing the juice (through the +5v red wire that you point out). So that's all good, will just be using regular PSU connectors.

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September 10, 2013, 10:12:30 PM
 #9049

There has been quite a bit of discussion on which PSU to purchase at the KNC forum.  The bigger 1000+ Watts PSU will not only offer better efficiency at around 50% load, but the lighter load (relative to max load) will also be easier on the PSU, extending its life and reliability.  The extra wattage headroom might also be useful in case the KNC chip turns out to be highly-overclockable.  On the same PSU KNC forum thread, one of the KNC staff has already l leaked Jupiter will run at an expected speed of 500 GH/s!

True and maybe some people can just wait for more info but there is a point of diminishing returns.  Lets say the Jupiter is 500 MH/s.  >850W @ 12VDC would mean >944W @ 120VAC.  That is >1.8 J/GH.  Already close to double what bitfury does @ 55nm and more than double all other 28nm offerings.  I certainly hope it doesn't require even MORE power than that, I am hoping it will be significantly less power even when overclocked.  Then again it isn't like more capacity hurts I was just pointing out the "much lower efficiency" at high load is pretty much a misnomer at this point.

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September 10, 2013, 10:16:51 PM
 #9050

I happen to have one of these PSUs kicking around. I've looked at the specs and it seems like it would fit the bill, but I'd appreciate a 2nd set of eyes. Any glaring reason that this unit wouldn't be a decent PSU for a Jupiter?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817103088

Should be good.  Has 4 pairs of 2 PCIE connectors so you can use 1 from each pair without any worries of overloading the wiring.  Has a single 83A 12V rail which should be more than enough.  80-Gold efficiency and more headroom then KNC recommends.  Can never know for sure until you test it but I can't see any reason it wouldn't work.
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September 10, 2013, 11:03:07 PM
 #9051

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/17/us/as-worries-over-the-power-grid-rise-a-drill-will-simulate-a-knockout-blow.html?pagewanted=all&_r=2&
whoa, maybe better get some solar panels..image they blow something up by accident during the drill  Cheesy

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September 10, 2013, 11:21:52 PM
 #9052


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/17/us/as-worries-over-the-power-grid-rise-a-drill-will-simulate-a-knockout-blow.html?pagewanted=all&_r=2&
whoa, maybe better get some solar panels..image they blow something up by accident during the drill  Cheesy

  One thing that sucks about solar panels.  Is if its a grid tide system like mine and most are.    They do not work when the power go out.    Its a safety future so you don't feed electricity back in to the lines and end up frying the guy working on them on the other end.   But you can always do a battery backup.  Witch in that case they would still work.  But cost and maintenance of batteries   Can be costly,  So most people don't bother.    Easier to just have a generator for a black out.
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September 10, 2013, 11:25:14 PM
 #9053


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/17/us/as-worries-over-the-power-grid-rise-a-drill-will-simulate-a-knockout-blow.html?pagewanted=all&_r=2&
whoa, maybe better get some solar panels..image they blow something up by accident during the drill  Cheesy

  One thing that sucks about solar panels.  Is if its a grid tide system like mine and most are.    They do not work when the power go out.    Its a safety future so you don't feed electricity back in to the lines and end up frying the guy working on them on the other end.   But you can always do a battery backup.  Witch in that case they would still work.  But cost and maintenance of batteries   Can be costly,  So most people don't bother.    Easier to just have a generator for a black out.
You can buy hybrid inverters that will grid feed and charge batteries so you can continue to mine if the grid goes out. They obviously wont feed the grid from the batteries for safety.


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September 10, 2013, 11:28:08 PM
 #9054


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/17/us/as-worries-over-the-power-grid-rise-a-drill-will-simulate-a-knockout-blow.html?pagewanted=all&_r=2&
whoa, maybe better get some solar panels..image they blow something up by accident during the drill  Cheesy

  One thing that sucks about solar panels.  Is if its a grid tide system like mine and most are.    They do not work when the power go out.    Its a safety future so you don't feed electricity back in to the lines and end up frying the guy working on them on the other end.   But you can always do a battery backup.  Witch in that case they would still work.  But cost and maintenance of batteries   Can be costly,  So most people don't bother.    Easier to just have a generator for a black out.

usually when the power goes out, it's not very sunny Cheesy

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September 11, 2013, 12:26:21 AM
 #9055

It makes sense that KnC in partnership with ORSoC would use an ORSoC Linux solution.

If they use the SO-DIMM pictured:
(FYI, SO-DIMM is the form factor typically found for laptop memory)

It's NOT a CPU powerhouse, at only 166MHz.
It does not need to be!

It _IS_ a perephial powerhouse!

It has 5 USB ports.

It has 5 ethernet ports and can do GiG ethernet.

It has an Altera FPGA on it for lots of helpful miner specific things.

Lets consider each in a bit more detail.

The SO-DIMM:
Only 1 connector needed for the brain, everything needing connection to the rest of the system is handled by the PCB that it rides on.
You just snap em in, possibly with screws to retain it.
You can preconfigure/program them on existing dedicated programming stations instead of having to hook up each miner for programming. FAST!
It is an industry standard 'module' in use for many years. (unlike the Pi and BBB form factor)
Most servers have SO-DIMM sockets so you can add a PC to your server to monitor the health etc.

The FPGA:
They are like magical reconfigurable printed circuit boards. (their most basic feature)
All you have to do during design is make sure you have a trace leading from the reconfigurable I/O pins to each external device and you can worry about the exact details as needed.
The FPGA in question has many additional features that address a miners needs.
Mainly lots of configurable logic (22,000 LUT's), clocks, and high speed communication, along with coordinating that communication.
I'm not suggesting that it will(no massive heatsink), but it is in theory possible that a miner with ZERO modules could still hash on the FPGA all by it's lonesome.
They chose a Linux solution that already has an FPGA onboard that the competition has had to add to their controller boards.
An FPGA primer linked below
http://www.ni.com/white-paper/6983/en/para4


The Ethernet Transceivers and Switch Engine:
Ethernet is a good choice for interfacing with the, wait for it,,, internet!
USB has a length limitation that ethernet solves with ease.
Hosting USB units would be a pain and need lots of additional components.

USB onboard:
5ports, 4 for ASICS and one for 'users'.
Utilize existing software that primarily uses USB to communicate with mining units.
We don't know the detail of the 5th port but it is possible that it could support a WiFi connection.

166MHz CPU:
It does not take much brain power to interface with a specialized team of perephials.
Consider "seemingly" incompetent middle managers(very rare but they exist), they are successful because their job is coordination not necessarily whatever specialty they manage.

Here is a link to the info for the pictured(by KnC) solution
http://www.orsoc.se/?page_id=484


In my mind KnC have demonstrated good component choices for getting an ASIC solution to market FAST! Imagine being an employed FPGA engineer with an interest in mining. You take your idea to your boss and they not only listen but say YES. The Mars FPGA evidently did well enough to convince the team to decide to throw down on the competition.

So far the execution of the 'margins on top of margins' KnC plan appears to be on target.
All ASIC vendors are at the mercy of their chosen foundry. An orginization with a long established relationship with a foundry reduces this risk. They can hold future business over their head to help insure timelines are met. They can get production scheduling and predict delivery based on past performance. This is a 'margin' the competition may not have.

We will know one way or the other shortly.

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September 11, 2013, 12:33:30 AM
 #9056


<snip>


TL;DR the ORSoC embedded card is overkill for the miner application.
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September 11, 2013, 12:41:02 AM
Last edit: September 11, 2013, 01:59:37 AM by DeathAndTaxes
 #9057

It has 5 USB ports.

None of which are used.

Quote
It has 5 ethernet ports and can do GiG ethernet.
Only one would be used the rest is just wasted spec.

Quote
It has an Altera FPGA on it for lots of helpful miner specific things.
Completely useless and expensive.  

Quote
Ethernet is a good choice for interfacing with the, wait for it,,, internet!
Lots of cheaper alternatives have Ethernet.  Nobody would use usb for a standalone rig.  Nobody has (Bitfury, Avalon, ASICMiner)

Quote
The SO-DIMM: You can preconfigure/program them on existing dedicated programming stations instead of having to hook up each miner for programming. FAST!
An SD card can be loaded with a linux distro.  No need to connect the miner to a programming station.  

Quote
USB onboard:
5ports, 4 for ASICS and one for 'users'.
We don't know the detail of the 5th port but it is possible that it could support a WiFi connection.

We know none of the ASIC boards connect to the host by USB.  Hint: take a look at the PCB photo.  They are connected to the host using low speed, low cost serial.  If simple works why go complicated.    The same connectivity that Avalon, ASICMiner, and Bitfury use.  


The host simply needs:
Small amount of computing power and memory to run a stripped down single purpose linux distro
Enough storage/flash to store OS, mining software, and optionally webserver for reporting/management
low speed serial interface to the ASICs (we are talking slower than a modem is fine).
Ethernet connectivity
Cheap.  No embedded board is going to cost less than a rPi.

Hate to break it to you but looking at the photos it would appear that KNC ended up going with rPi beaglebone instead of the expensive overkill SO-DIMM system on a board.
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September 11, 2013, 12:44:40 AM
 #9058

DeathAndTaxes sure seems to know alot about the KNCMiner... Do you have a inside hookup or do you work for them? Huh

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September 11, 2013, 12:46:33 AM
 #9059

DeathAndTaxes sure seems to know alot about the KNCMiner... Do you have a inside hookup or do you work for them? Huh

Nope I just read a lot (and have an eidetic memory).
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September 11, 2013, 12:51:48 AM
 #9060

I forget, what does eidetic mean?
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