Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[raskul]

16nm is next, which they also began in October with allchip.

Eric!

good to see you've caught up! finally!

Yeah, I'm a "Glutton for punishment"  I was busy spending all my coin... lol.

what'd ya buy? I'm gonna use some of mine to get a holiday via expedia... thinking Israel for xmas  

A zero-Turn John-Deere mower...
and a 2005 Silverado 2500 HD 4x4 crew I get Saturday if all goes right...

sweet, what's the w/gh on the mower?  
I used to have an old 'apache' (i think that was the name of it) for the acre in lincolnshire - after the council ordered us to destroy the ragwort or face prosecution, it was a must - along-with the strimmer and the tin of petrol to get the bonfire going.

Yeah. lol... Nothing works quite like incineration, but I like my place actually.... hehe It's a 48' deck, which replaces an old LT2000 craftsman regular crappy 36" rider that I've ran into the rocks a few too many times until the deck rusted apart, and the mandrel sent the blade thru the deck... time for a noob.... 3 acres to mow. Now at least I have something to show from the Jupiters... although I'll keep the mower, the silvrado is an investment for resale

cool, best luck getting the wagon at a good price.

[Phoenix1969]

16nm is next, which they also began in October with allchip.

Eric!

good to see you've caught up! finally!

Yeah, I'm a "Glutton for punishment"  I was busy spending all my coin... lol.

what'd ya buy? I'm gonna use some of mine to get a holiday via expedia... thinking Israel for xmas  

A zero-Turn John-Deere mower...
and a 2005 Silverado 2500 HD 4x4 crew I get Saturday if all goes right...

sweet, what's the w/gh on the mower?  
I used to have an old 'apache' (i think that was the name of it) for the acre in lincolnshire - after the council ordered us to destroy the ragwort or face prosecution, it was a must - along-with the strimmer and the tin of petrol to get the bonfire going.

Yeah. lol... Nothing works quite like incineration, but I like my place actually.... hehe It's a 48' deck, which replaces an old LT2000 craftsman regular crappy 36" rider that I've ran into the rocks a few too many times until the deck rusted apart, and the mandrel sent the blade thru the deck... time for a noob.... 3 acres to mow. Now at least I have something to show from the Jupiters... although I'll keep the mower, the silvrado is an investment for resale

cool, best luck getting the wagon at a good price.

thx..  also...  The mower's 0-Gh/s has a better btc return than any Miner I see right now...lol
Yeah... the wagon is a "Good deal". A divorcee who has to liquidate selling @ 1/2 Blue book price and I was a "Goodwrench"
Mech for many years... So the plan is to turn it over before all the BTC liquidations happen to be ready to buy back in.

[raskul]

thx..  also...  The mower's 0-Gh/s has a better btc return than any Miner I see right now...lol

meh, nothing in-stock worth looking at just now; and i just plain refuse to go down any alt-route.
hence just buying up more coins today - gotta put friday the 13th to some use huh?

[jimmothy]

So far, the Chinese have been evolutionary in their approach. This is probably because they haven't had the capital, or expectations of reasonable returns, to invest in large die 20nm ASIC development. They deploy 'old technology' at scale, with tuning to meet short term market demands. After this current generation of Chinese mining technology, they will be faced with the choice of either having to make significant investment in their own 20nm ASICs or exit the market. My guess is that several Chinese manufacturers will join together in a consortium to fund the needed investment and share the results. Eventually, they will consolidate.

I agree that the chinese have been revolutionary but it is not because they lacked capital (hence no preorders). They did not go with 20nm for the same reason everyone else didn't, which is because the costs outweigh the benefits.

KNC was fortunate in their timing and invested profit from their successful first products and their mining revenue into large die 20nm technology. We'll soon discover what kind of performance this yields. My guess is a 1st in Class machine that they can then node shrink to 14nm without a lot of risk or expense to enable them to stay competitive well into the point on the mining profitability curve where others can not compete because there is too much risk to capital returns.

KNC 20nm will be ~0.7w/gh at the wall assuming the 30% increased efficiency per die shrink. This puts their 20nm chip on par with bitfuries 55nm chip in terms of efficiency. If bitfury makes a 28nm chip it will certainly destroy everything on the market today.

Also large die 20nm technology is not the ideal solution for bitcoin mining. Each chip will need a powerful cooler (most likely water cooled). A bunch of small and efficient 8mm chips with a shared heatsink is a much more cost effective solution.

Other existing mining equipment manufacturers fall somewhere between these two cases, some relying on die shrinks of old technology to stay competitive, others investing in 28nm and 40nm designs and mostly falling on their faces leaving a trail of unhappy pre-order investors in their wake.

The face falling has to do with the preorders not the process size.

So, the long and short of it is that we are getting to the point on the profitability curve where if a company hasn't already made the very large investments needed to stay competitive over the next few years, they are out of business. Its is clear to me that KNC, so far, has made all the correct strategic moves to ensure that they are a leader in this market for the foreseeable future.

Completely disagree. I think they are shooting themselves in the foot by going with a die shrink to 20nm instead of improving their design.

[Phoenix1969]

thx..  also...  The mower's 0-Gh/s has a better btc return than any Miner I see right now...lol

meh, nothing in-stock worth looking at just now; and i just plain refuse to go down any alt-route.
hence just buying up more coins today - gotta put friday the 13th to some use huh?

Oh shizzle... Friday the 13th.....  Good thing it's tomorrow.... lol

***Weren't we told by KNC there would be news by today on the Cloud-hashing contracts?  
("Later this week" in the news)
Looks like yet another broken promise.....  I wonder now if they actually WANT people to refund...?
and where the hell are the pics of our 20nm wafers when they taped out weeks ago?
Any cutting edge chip developer should have been proud to post the pics of something like that I'd think...?

I keep coming to the well for water, but finding it dry when I was promised the most refreshing water ever.
They left a note though... "We got the water! more news about the best water ever coming later this week".
and although I paid in advance for my best water ever, there are people walking by with water from 7-11 that was cheaper and delivered sooner. That's okay, because they've promised to give me double the water I paid for, even though I may die of dehydration(Difficulty) before they arrive and meanwhile the 7-11 guys are enjoying Big-Gulps hoping my well never has water in it, hovering like vultures, cursing my beloved water provider when I just know they are as pure as the driven snow.  
and its now the last day of the week... no sign of moisture even.

[greghawk]

thx..  also...  The mower's 0-Gh/s has a better btc return than any Miner I see right now...lol

meh, nothing in-stock worth looking at just now; and i just plain refuse to go down any alt-route.
hence just buying up more coins today - gotta put friday the 13th to some use huh?

Oh shizzle... Friday the 13th.....  Good thing it's tomorrow.... lol

***Weren't we told by KNC there would be news by today on the Cloud-hashing contracts?  
("Later this week" in the news)
Looks like yet another broken promise.....  I wonder now if they actually WANT people to refund...?
and where the hell are the pics of our 20nm wafers when they taped out weeks ago?
Any cutting edge chip developer should have been proud to post the pics of something like that I'd think...?

I keep coming to the well for water, but finding it dry when I was promised the most refreshing water ever.
They left a note though... "We got the water! more news about the best water ever coming later this week".
and although I paid in advance for my best water ever, there are people walking by with water from 7-11 that was cheaper and delivered sooner. That's okay, because they've promised to give me double the water I paid for, even though I may die of dehydration(Difficulty) before they arrive and meanwhile the 7-11 guys are enjoying Big-Gulps hoping my well never has water in it, hovering like vultures, cursing my beloved water provider when I just know they are as pure as the driven snow.  
and its now the last day of the week... no sign of moisture even.

lol 

ya, hard to see the dark side is

Still, I´m hoping, although I´m very thursty now

[Phoenix1969]

lol  

ya, hard to see the dark side is

Still, I´m hoping, although I´m very thursty now

There's always the chance they are diverting a fater-fall... or a hefty storm coming....(very small chance) fingers crossed
Frustrating all this secrecy it is....

[RoadStress]

I am waiting to see what KNC and Bitmain do in the next month or so before I commit any more money to equipment.
The SP30 could well be still born ...

I thought we are supposed to see what KNC will to THIS month, not next month! That means a nice 1 month delay for Neptune pre-orders. Very nice! Shill more for your fail company please!

[s1gs3gv]

I am waiting to see what KNC and Bitmain do in the next month or so before I commit any more money to equipment.
The SP30 could well be still born ...

I thought we are supposed to see what KNC will to THIS month, not next month! That means a nice 1 month delay for Neptune pre-orders. Very nice! Shill more for your fail company please!

Neptune this month, S3 next month dumb ass.

[s1gs3gv]

So, the long and short of it is that we are getting to the point on the profitability curve where if a company hasn't already made the very large investments needed to stay competitive over the next few years, they are out of business. Its is clear to me that KNC, so far, has made all the correct strategic moves to ensure that they are a leader in this market for the foreseeable future.

Completely disagree. I think they are shooting themselves in the foot by going with a die shrink to 20nm instead of improving their design.

Completely disagree with you. They aren't going with a die shrink, they are improving their design and building it on a 20nm process.
This will provide the foundation for continuous future evolution via die shrinks of their products without additional large capital investments of the sort Neptune required. As mining profitability shrinks into the single digit % ROI, its going to be very hard for equipment companies to invest large sums in future R&D. Now is probably the last window of opportunity for major re-designs of equipment. KNC knows mining and they did the right thing at the right time.

[RoadStress]

I am waiting to see what KNC and Bitmain do in the next month or so before I commit any more money to equipment.
The SP30 could well be still born ...

I thought we are supposed to see what KNC will to THIS month, not next month! That means a nice 1 month delay for Neptune pre-orders. Very nice! Shill more for your fail company please!

Neptune this month, S3 next month dumb ass.

Just 15 days left for this month. Care to have a 0.5 bet on KnC delivering Neptune this month?

[jimmothy]

Completely disagree with you. They aren't going with a die shrink, they are improving their design and building it on a 20nm process.

Didn't know they changed the design. Got a source for that?

I have only heard that 20nm is not cost effective as you can see here:

[SgtMoth]

Did anyone find someone that fixes these franken jupiter boards?

[rograz]

I have only heard that 20nm is not cost effective as you can see here:

Doesn't really matter since they used crowd funding to pay for the NRE (the big drawback of 20 vs 28nm), long term for KNC they got a win since they are on a "better" process node than the competition and the only ones that lost out on the development time were their customers (KNC were happily mining away with old gear anyway). Unless BTC price goes up considerably it is going to be really hard for another HW manufacturer to justify/raise the money to go 20nm once the mining market is saturated (at least until the mask costs comes down).

[RoadStress]

I have only heard that 20nm is not cost effective as you can see here:

Doesn't really matter since they used crowd funding to pay for the NRE (the big drawback of 20 vs 28nm), long term for KNC they got a win since they are on a "better" process node than the competition and the only ones that lost out on the development time were their customers (KNC were happily mining away with old gear anyway). Unless BTC price goes up considerably it is going to be really hard for another HW manufacturer to justify/raise the money to go 20nm once the mining market is saturated (at least until the mask costs comes down).

A better/smaller process node is equal to zero if the performance is worse than a bigger process node. There is no advantage there. Why would I choose a 20nm Neptune that has ~0.7W/GH (just an assumption) when I can choose the 28nm SP30 chip that has 0.5W/GH at system level?

[Phoenix1969]

Completely disagree with you. They aren't going with a die shrink, they are improving their design and building it on a 20nm process.

Didn't know they changed the design. Got a source for that?

I have only heard that 20nm is not cost effective as you can see here:

image pulled

They did mention re-submitting the code during the Christmas week... Which is part of the shuttle-service during the design phase; so I think Jimmothy is right...
they may use 20nm to 16 nm shrikage plan, lol....   wonder if it will employ Finfet 3-D as well.....   hmmmm
I'm also thinking that "cost effectiveness" won't be determined until we know for sure about our ROI possibilities.
Yeah, I know most think Neptune will never ROI, but you never know what the future holds until it has arrived.
KNC also have alot to "make up" for, and they just might "pull it off".
*Barring the FrankenJupiter mess*... That was Freakishly bad for PR, but now those guys are now hashing and have been hashing for how long now?
Anyone care to share what they've made BTC wize with FrankenJupiter so far? 

[s1gs3gv]

I have only heard that 20nm is not cost effective as you can see here:

Jimmothy, that chart only tells a very small part of the story - the impact of node scaling on transistor cost given certain assumptions about wafer cost and yield that are typical of Nvidia's processes.

When each one of those transistors is producing BTC instead of drawing pixels on the screen, analysis of relative transistor costs is a secondary factor compared to hashing speed and power consumption.

[s1gs3gv]

I have only heard that 20nm is not cost effective as you can see here:

Here is a link you might find interesting. It provides information on geometry, die size, transistor count and performance of some recent AMD GPUs from the R9 2XX series. It clearly illustrates how scaling geometry (40nm -> 28nm etc) effects performance and transistor count. Some of the latest 28nm designs contain over 6 billion transistors and provide over 5 tera-flops single precision performance in a 438 square millimeter  die size.  When AMD introduce a 20nm node GPU, it'll be a monster.

The same holds true for ASICS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_GPUs#Volcanic_Islands_.28Rx_200.29_Series

[Searing]

Did anyone find someone that fixes these franken jupiter boards?

i got a guy that supposedly can do it...only one of 3 in my state that can repair the newest of TV's *unfortunately it hardly pays to use a microscope to fix 'tossable' walmart LCD TV's etc made by robots etc

but then again you have to trust me trust him to try to do it ...trust he could do it....etc etc

i suppose if you just are at the point it is 'all junk' in your opinion or your techs you could send it to me

but might be like doing heart surgery by a vet on a stray cat you hit with a car....may not be worth the effort

pm me if it really really unsalvageable and you could ship it to me and we could look at it..but then again that whole trust issue

(all you guys have to move across town so we could have  beers and really really get a PH farm going! too much distance!)

anyway all I have..some? security that if my Titan shows up as a brick I have an 'option' with him getting it going..if he can't do so
well..that means you got something the local EE dept at your univ can't do either for beer and pizza

another option chase down the electronics dept at a local school/univ etc  beer and pizza an access to state of the art equip might
help pull something like this out...and you could get some newbie bitcoin recruits

all i got

good luck

Searing

[xstr8guy]

Did anyone find someone that fixes these franken jupiter boards?

A few people received a pile of trash. Others received unassembled yet working miners once assembled. The luckiest received (poorly) assembled miners and extra ASIC boards. Many needed beagle/controller board flashing, heatsink repositioning, fan replacement, etc.

I'm going out on a limb here but I think most people got them working to some extent and some have them working near perfectly and have bonus hash from the extra boards.

I actually think much of the rage was because of the poor quality of the product assembly and the shameful packaging of the shipments. And everyone who received these abortions had to work way too hard to get them running. But ultimately most people got near the hash that they (over)paid for.


edit... I misread your post and gave a completely unrelated answer. Sorry!