(Closed) Butter Bot!: Premier Bitstamp, and BTC-E EMA Trading Platform (Closed)

[PuertoLibre]

@ Pablo

I took notice yesterday when trying to build a B-Bot simulator in excel, that your bot actually takes 3 "update cycles" to actually execute an action. I have to ask why? Shouldn't it execute (ideally) when the second update cycle takes place? Why wait until the third cycle?

I used to think two things about B-Bot which were dispelled when trying to build my own version in Excel.

A) The idea that B-bot will act immediately if you set the first pair of thresholds to 0. Not the case. It actually still uses it, and there doesn't seem to be a way to disregard the first pair of threshold values. (Not a problem, but it is something worth knowing if you are using very long update periods (i.e. 1 hour 2 hour etc..)

B) This means that even if B-Bot noticed a correction in the market at 1 hour intervals it won't actually execute anything until 3 update periods. (3 hours) At 2 hours it should take 6 hours and this is only 1 way.

So between a buy and sell order, if you have your settings at 1 hour update intervals, then B-bot has a Buy and Sell period of about 6 hours. At 2 hours it should be double that. That was kind of alarming to figure that out. It seems like a pretty long turn around period...

(1 hour, Buy threshold 1 check, YES/NO)
(1 hour, Buy threshold 2 check, YES/NO)
(1 hour, Buy Execute, YES)

(1 hour, Sell threshold 1 check, YES/NO)
(1 hour, Sell threshold 2 check, YES/NO)
(1 hour, Sell Execute, YES)

=======[Discount Code for Butter (10% off)]=========

https://butter-bot.com/?r=f5a17f5b

Use my referal code cause' im sooo cute!  



You'll get an extra month free, it's all on me!

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[fible1]

Pablo,

When altcoins are released, how will the bot know how much of the single pool of fiat to spend on each pool of different coins?

Would I suddenly find myself with all altcoins & no btc one day?

Do we get to assign percentages of the fiat pool for each altcoin?

How does the bot manage that?

Hi Ngin ,
   We are still working out the mechanics of altcoins, but I feel that it would make sense if each currency pair had a pool of currency allotted to it and that it would trade that way. I'm not saying that's how it's going to work, it just seems intuitive to me; thoughts?

Pablo.

[upup]

So know one will share their settings?

[fible1]

Wondering what everyone uses to backtest?  When I set the charts at bitcoincharts.com to EMA 9/20 and hourly interval over the course of the last 10 days.  I only see ONE instance where, at those values, the bot should have sold short and possibly made a slight loss.  Other then that, the only other time I see a cross over was on Nov 10th with the correction that would've made some good profits.

http://www.bitcoincharts.com/charts/bitstampUSD#rg10zigHourlyztgSza1gEMAzm1g9za2gEMAzm2g20zv

Hi Butch ,
   Butter has it's own back testing engine; please feel free to download a demo and give it a try.

Don't hesitate to let me know if you need anything at all .

Pablo.

[NginUS]

So know one will share their settings?

People already have shared their settings here in the thread. They're not going to share them again just because you won't go back & read through the thread & find them a few pages back.

[papaminer]

Please prioritize ALT-COINS over Hosted trading?

Litecoin is TAKING OFF already... it might be too late soon..

[fible1]

@ Pablo

I took notice yesterday when trying to build a B-Bot simulator in excel, that your bot actually takes 3 "update cycles" to actually execute an action. I have to ask why? Shouldn't it execute (ideally) when the second update cycle takes place? Why wait until the third cycle?

I used to think two things about B-Bot which were dispelled when trying to build my own version in Excel.

A) The idea that B-bot will act immediately if you set the first pair of thresholds to 0. Not the case. It actually still uses it, and there doesn't seem to be a way to disregard the first pair of threshold values. (Not a problem, but it is something worth knowing if you are using very long update periods (i.e. 1 hour 2 hour etc..)

B) This means that even if B-Bot noticed a correction in the market at 1 hour intervals it won't actually execute anything until 3 update periods. (3 hours) At 2 hours it should take 6 hours and this is only 1 way.

So between a buy and sell order, if you have your settings at 1 hour update intervals, then B-bot has a Buy and Sell period of about 6 hours. At 2 hours it should be double that. That was kind of alarming to figure that out. It seems like a pretty long turn around period...

(1 hour, Buy threshold 1 check, YES/NO)
(1 hour, Buy threshold 2 check, YES/NO)
(1 hour, Buy Execute, YES)

(1 hour, Sell threshold 1 check, YES/NO)
(1 hour, Sell threshold 2 check, YES/NO)
(1 hour, Sell Execute, YES)

=======[Discount Code for Butter (10% off)]=========

https://butter-bot.com/?r=f5a17f5b

Use my referal code cause' im sooo cute!  



You'll get an extra month free, it's all on me!

Hey ,
  That's not quite accurate:

Butter will execute immediately when threshold 1 and threshold 2 are met (so after 2 hours in your 1 hour interval example).

As for disabling the first threshold (which you set to 0) you need to set it to a negative value, so that it will always be lower than the actual difference. That should void the first threshold for all intents and purposes.

I hope that helps .

[NginUS]

Pablo,

When altcoins are released, how will the bot know how much of the single pool of fiat to spend on each pool of different coins?

Would I suddenly find myself with all altcoins & no btc one day?

Do we get to assign percentages of the fiat pool for each altcoin?

How does the bot manage that?

Hi Ngin ,
   We are still working out the mechanics of altcoins, but I feel that it would make sense if each currency pair had a pool of currency allotted to it and that it would trade that way. I'm not saying that's how it's going to work, it just seems intuitive to me; thoughts?

Seems logical. Will the bot also be taking into consideration the curves associated with BTC/LTC, etc in addition to LTC/USD? Maybe sometimes it would be cheaper to buy LTC with BTC than USD, and vice versa, I don't know. Either way, I'd want to be able to set limits on how much USD &/or BTC the bot could spend on LTC.

But that amount I set would have to allow for gains due to the bot trading LTC, too.
For example if I say to the bot don't spend more than $100 USD, or 0.3 BTC, and by trading that amount it earns $165 USD, or 1.6 BTC, it should be able to trade with all that it has earned, and not be limited by my settings anymore. See what I mean? How can you do that?

[PuertoLibre]

@ Pablo

I took notice yesterday when trying to build a B-Bot simulator in excel, that your bot actually takes 3 "update cycles" to actually execute an action. I have to ask why? Shouldn't it execute (ideally) when the second update cycle takes place? Why wait until the third cycle?

I used to think two things about B-Bot which were dispelled when trying to build my own version in Excel.

A) The idea that B-bot will act immediately if you set the first pair of thresholds to 0. Not the case. It actually still uses it, and there doesn't seem to be a way to disregard the first pair of threshold values. (Not a problem, but it is something worth knowing if you are using very long update periods (i.e. 1 hour 2 hour etc..)

B) This means that even if B-Bot noticed a correction in the market at 1 hour intervals it won't actually execute anything until 3 update periods. (3 hours) At 2 hours it should take 6 hours and this is only 1 way.

So between a buy and sell order, if you have your settings at 1 hour update intervals, then B-bot has a Buy and Sell period of about 6 hours. At 2 hours it should be double that. That was kind of alarming to figure that out. It seems like a pretty long turn around period...

(1 hour, Buy threshold 1 check, YES/NO)
(1 hour, Buy threshold 2 check, YES/NO)
(1 hour, Buy Execute, YES)

(1 hour, Sell threshold 1 check, YES/NO)
(1 hour, Sell threshold 2 check, YES/NO)
(1 hour, Sell Execute, YES)

=======[Discount Code for Butter (10% off)]=========

https://butter-bot.com/?r=f5a17f5b

Use my referal code cause' im sooo cute!  



You'll get an extra month free, it's all on me!

Hey ,
  That's not quite accurate:

Butter will execute immediately when threshold 1 and threshold 2 are met (so after 2 hours in your 1 hour interval example).

As for disabling the first threshold (which you set to 0) you need to set it to a negative value, so that it will always be lower than the actual difference. That should void the first threshold for all intents and purposes.

I hope that helps .

You are definitely right, I accidentally mixed two different data sets with different EMA values when comparing how butter does things.

One data set reads one way, the other has slightly different values. (Thank God, will save me a ton of time!)

[fible1]

Pablo,

When altcoins are released, how will the bot know how much of the single pool of fiat to spend on each pool of different coins?

Would I suddenly find myself with all altcoins & no btc one day?

Do we get to assign percentages of the fiat pool for each altcoin?

How does the bot manage that?

Hi Ngin ,
   We are still working out the mechanics of altcoins, but I feel that it would make sense if each currency pair had a pool of currency allotted to it and that it would trade that way. I'm not saying that's how it's going to work, it just seems intuitive to me; thoughts?

Seems logical. Will the bot also be taking into consideration the curves associated with BTC/LTC, etc in addition to LTC/USD? Maybe sometimes it would be cheaper to buy LTC with BTC than USD, and vice versa, I don't know. Either way, I'd want to be able to set limits on how much USD &/or BTC the bot could spend on LTC.

But that amount I set would have to allow for gains due to the bot trading LTC, too.
For example if I say to the bot don't spend more than $100 USD, or 0.3 BTC, and by trading that amount it earns $165 USD, or 1.6 BTC, it should be able to trade with all that it has earned, and not be limited by my settings anymore. See what I mean? How can you do that?

Ngin,
   I see what you're saying. I will forward your comments over to the developer and we will see what we can come up with. I imagine the first release of altcoins will use a simpler system to allot funds for trading than we are currently discussing, but I think you have some good points for more advanced development and work flow.

I'd be interested to know if you have any other suggestions for how you would like this to be handled?

Pablo.

[simiane]

As good as Ngin's feature would be, if it's likely to slow development I'd rather see a release that can just deal with Alt-coin currency pairs the same way BB currently does for now... I'm happy to just run separate accounts for LTC and BTC while you work on a more involved solution for the future.

[NginUS]

All I can think of now is for there to be a way for it to seperate seed funds from capital gains. I'll chime in with more ideas as they come to me.

[NginUS]

Pablo,

When altcoins are released, how will the bot know how much of the single pool of fiat to spend on each pool of different coins?

Would I suddenly find myself with all altcoins & no btc one day?

Do we get to assign percentages of the fiat pool for each altcoin?

How does the bot manage that?

Hi Ngin ,
   We are still working out the mechanics of altcoins, but I feel that it would make sense if each currency pair had a pool of currency allotted to it and that it would trade that way. I'm not saying that's how it's going to work, it just seems intuitive to me; thoughts?

Seems logical. Will the bot also be taking into consideration the curves associated with BTC/LTC, etc in addition to LTC/USD? Maybe sometimes it would be cheaper to buy LTC with BTC than USD, and vice versa, I don't know. Either way, I'd want to be able to set limits on how much USD &/or BTC the bot could spend on LTC.

But that amount I set would have to allow for gains due to the bot trading LTC, too.
For example if I say to the bot don't spend more than $100 USD, or 0.3 BTC, and by trading that amount it earns $165 USD, or 1.6 BTC, it should be able to trade with all that it has earned, and not be limited by my settings anymore. See what I mean? How can you do that?

Ngin,
   I see what you're saying. I will forward your comments over to the developer and we will see what we can come up with. I imagine the first release of altcoins will use a simpler system to allot funds for trading than we are currently discussing, but I think you have some good points for more advanced development and work flow.

I'd be interested to know if you have any other suggestions for how you would like this to be handled?

Pablo.

Yes, another detail comes to mind.

Currently the bot can be in 1 of 2 states. Loaded with BTC waiting to sell it for USD, or loaded with USD waiting to buy BTC.

When a LTC sell opportunity presents itself, it ought to choose to sell itself for whatever currency I'm currently loaded with, in order to help maximize the next use of those funds in their cycle.

Once the USD or BTC has cycled to its next position, being loaded with either BTC or USD, the bot ought to allocate the LTC buy funds out of either of whatever currency its sale helped optimize.

See what I'm saying? I hope I'm being clear.

[PuertoLibre]

All I can think of now is for there to be a way for it to seperate seed funds from capital gains. I'll chime in with more ideas as they come to me.

I mentioned something like that to Pablo in private a few days ago. A sort of Butter BookKeeper. (Simple Accounting)

I think if Pablo's team could work out a way to employ entirely different strategies within one account, then the losses in one strategy can be offset by the win's of another. A crop of the best, settings, working side by side to make some profit.

It's an alternative to a "one strategy fits all". I don't know what came out of it or if he found anything useful in the ideas I presented. But hopefully it inspires some future version. (Considering they are moving to a hosted solution, it just puts a little more money in their pocket if they can sell a wider array of techniques.)

I just hope they consider that most accounts on exchanges need to be KYC verified so it makes it impractical to run multiple accounts with each one having different strategies. With a little simple book keeping you could probably eliminate that problem by keeping numerical tabs on trades being conducted. Even if there is one pool of "seed" funds, it can conceivably be sub-divided. Each subdivision of seed funds inside one account can then be accounted for.

Since any USD from a single account pool is perfectly interchangeable with any other USD from anothe rinstance there wouldn't be a problem as long as the book keeper keeps numerical tabs so it doesn't overdraw seed funds between instances. Same is true for BTC within one account. The only thing distinguishing one BTC from another is just the book keeper.

===================

If you analyze the market carefully you can pick out people using bots to trade with and these bots run on fixed settings. (Heck, you can even use the bots trades to your advantage! (I made a few K today and yesterday just identifying them)

If butter could be retooled for various parallel strategies (even if it is EMA based) it might prove to be a bit more profitable. I am currently trying it out myself to see how it handles.

[NginUS]

It would have to keep track constantly of how much of its working capital is from seed fund, & how much is earned, so that when you want to add more it knows how much its allowed to use.

[PuertoLibre]

It would have to keep track constantly of how much of its working capital is from seed fund, & how much is earned, so that when you want to add more it knows how much its allowed to use.

Like so?

[NginUS]

Maybe. I don't know if it makes sense for each altcoin to have its own engine settings or not though.

[papaminer]

Please prioritize ALT-COINS over Hosted trading?

Litecoin is TAKING OFF already... it might be too late soon..

BUMP

[hamneggs]

Is there a way to get a refund?

I've been running the bot for about 2 weeks. In that time, the only thing that's happened is I've lost about 30%. After configuring and running various simulations, I opened the bot up or live action. The bot immediately executed a buy instead of waiting for a reverse crossover. Later, after some particularly volatile action, it sold at a loss due to a crossover. During the reverse crossover, it bought after the price had increased drastically, diminishing any gains that would have negated the original losses. During a subsequent crossover, following more volatile market action, it again sold well below levels that would make its trades profitable.

During the same time frame, I made a 200% increase by manually trading.

Fortunately, my losses by the bot were ultimately minimized because I used the bot with a small test amount ($150). Had I just jumped right in, my losses would have been compounded.

I know two weeks isn't a good indication for trades based on ema indicators, but using one of the weeks I used the bot for back testing, the bot says I should have made 46% using the same settings I did during live trading.


Thanks.

[boozezela]

I know two weeks isn't a good indication for trades based on ema indicators, but using one of the weeks I used the bot for back testing, the bot says I should have made 46% using the same settings I did during live trading.

And in this market by just holding on the coins you would have made more, still not the bot's fault.