Bitcoin Forum
July 18, 2018, 12:12:19 AM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.16.1  [Torrent]. (New!)
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Poll
Question: What type of pool payouts do you prefer?
Bitcoins - 3235 (80.5%)
Bank transfer / USD - 415 (10.3%)
Gold/silver coins and bars - 371 (9.2%)
Total Voters: 4019

Pages: « 1 ... 479 480 481 482 483 484 485 486 487 488 489 490 491 492 493 494 495 496 497 498 499 500 501 502 503 504 505 506 507 508 509 510 511 512 513 514 515 516 517 518 519 520 521 522 523 524 525 526 527 528 [529] 530 531 532 533 534 535 536 537 538 539 540 541 542 543 544 545 546 547 548 549 550 551 552 553 554 555 556 557 558 559 560 561 562 563 564 565 566 567 568 569 570 571 572 573 574 575 576 577 578 579 ... 1144 »
  Print  
Author Topic: [4+ EH] Slush Pool (slushpool.com); Overt AsicBoost; World First Mining Pool  (Read 4328448 times)
trasla
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 713
Merit: 500



View Profile
June 24, 2013, 08:45:16 PM
 #10561

One block (by design) is found every 10 mins.
Do you see this?

There we go, thats the point.
This "by design" - how do you think it works?

It does via adjusting the difficulty. If an increase in hashrate lets the network find blocks more often, difficulty is increased to a value which leads to one block every ten minutes on average, with the current hasrate. If the hasrate drops, and the networks finds blocks too slowly, difficulty is lowered. So "every ten minutes by design" does not work instantly, but is periodically adjusted via the difficulty value.
1531872739
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1531872739

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1531872739
Reply with quote  #2

1531872739
Report to moderator
1531872739
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1531872739

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1531872739
Reply with quote  #2

1531872739
Report to moderator
1531872739
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1531872739

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1531872739
Reply with quote  #2

1531872739
Report to moderator
The World's Betting Exchange

Bet with play money. Win real Bitcoin. 5BTC Prize Fund for World Cup 2018.

Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1531872739
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1531872739

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1531872739
Reply with quote  #2

1531872739
Report to moderator
1531872739
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1531872739

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1531872739
Reply with quote  #2

1531872739
Report to moderator
nottm28
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 588
Merit: 500



View Profile
June 24, 2013, 08:47:52 PM
 #10562

One block (by design) is found every 10 mins.
Do you see this?

There we go, thats the point.
This "by design" - how do you think it works?

It does via adjusting the difficulty. If an increase in hashrate lets the network find blocks more often, difficulty is increased to a value which leads to one block every ten minutes on average, with the current hasrate. If the hasrate drops, and the networks finds blocks too slowly, difficulty is lowered. So "every ten minutes by design" does not work instantly, but is periodically adjusted via the difficulty value.

Ok trasla, no worries, I tried Smiley

donations not accepted
trasla
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 713
Merit: 500



View Profile
June 24, 2013, 08:49:16 PM
 #10563

You want to give up?
If you dont agree, just explain to me how the network makes sure one block is found every ten minutes.
nottm28
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 588
Merit: 500



View Profile
June 24, 2013, 08:53:41 PM
 #10564

You want to give up?
If you dont agree, just explain to me how the network makes sure one block is found every ten minutes.

Ok, difficulty is set to 'try' and maintain one block find every 10 mins. If suddenly the total network hash rate was doubled (due to a massive sudden addition of asics say). Then difficulty woud stay the same for a few days. Blocks would suddenly be found every 5 mins not 10 for a few days. Until the guys who develop the code say - hey 'we need to increase difficulty' - 'blocks are being found too often'. In the mean time, your reward will have dropped. I'm trying to explain that hash rate is the driver - and difficulty is the compensator...

donations not accepted
Trongersoll
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 490
Merit: 500



View Profile
June 24, 2013, 08:56:44 PM
 #10565

One block (by design) is found every 10 mins.
Do you see this?

There we go, thats the point.
This "by design" - how do you think it works?

It does via adjusting the difficulty. If an increase in hashrate lets the network find blocks more often, difficulty is increased to a value which leads to one block every ten minutes on average, with the current hasrate. If the hasrate drops, and the networks finds blocks too slowly, difficulty is lowered. So "every ten minutes by design" does not work instantly, but is periodically adjusted via the difficulty value.

Ok trasla, no worries, I tried Smiley

heh, this is like tag team.

I think that the problem is that we are looking at long term and you are looking short term. Yes, until the difficulty increase the time to find a block would decrease. And you would continue to find them at a constant rate. But, when he difficulty does go up, it will more than compensate for the previous "gift". At least i think it will. there are those that speculate that the date the last Bitcoin is mined is slowly moving closer.
nottm28
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 588
Merit: 500



View Profile
June 24, 2013, 08:59:09 PM
 #10566

One block (by design) is found every 10 mins.
Do you see this?

There we go, thats the point.
This "by design" - how do you think it works?

It does via adjusting the difficulty. If an increase in hashrate lets the network find blocks more often, difficulty is increased to a value which leads to one block every ten minutes on average, with the current hasrate. If the hasrate drops, and the networks finds blocks too slowly, difficulty is lowered. So "every ten minutes by design" does not work instantly, but is periodically adjusted via the difficulty value.

Ok trasla, no worries, I tried Smiley

heh, this is like tag team.

I think that the problem is that we are looking at long term and you are looking short term. Yes, until the difficulty increase the time to find a block would decrease. And you would continue to find them at a constant rate. But, when he difficulty does go up, it will more than compensate for the previous "gift". At least i think it will. there are those that speculate that the date the last Bitcoin is mined is slowly moving closer.

I think the 'end date' is coming closer Trong. There's loads of debate about increasing the life span of btc - some complicated maths the likes of organofcorti and a few others understand...

[EDIT] trasla - please pm me - we need to take this offline. I don't wanna bloat this thread any worse - sorry guys

donations not accepted
trasla
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 713
Merit: 500



View Profile
June 24, 2013, 09:04:52 PM
 #10567


I think that the problem is that we are looking at long term and you are looking short term. Yes, until the difficulty increase the time to find a block would decrease. And you would continue to find them at a constant rate. But, when he difficulty does go up, it will more than compensate for the previous "gift". At least i think it will. there are those that speculate that the date the last Bitcoin is mined is slowly moving closer.

I completely agree - but thats exactly what i said before. If someone else adds hashrate, my reward stays the same _until difficulty adjusts_.


nottm28:

Okay, we are getting near.
Lets say we have two pools, each with half the hasrate (say, 10 GH/s each).
Both find a block every 20 minutes, totalling for one block every 10 minutes.
Now one pool adds 20 GH/s. Network hashrate is doubled, blocks are found every 5 minutes.
One pool has 30 GH/s, tripled hashrate, finds 3 blocks in 20 minutes.
The other pool stays at 10 GH/s, finds one block every 20 minutes.
In total, 4 blocks in 20 minutes -> one block in 5.

One pool gets same number of blocks with same hasrate, so same income as before for all its miners.
The other pool gets three times the blocks, but every miner in it now has only one third of the relative hashing power, so he gets one third of his usual rewar per block -> same income as before.

I agree with you, only "in the meantime, your reward will have dropped" i cant see.

EDIT: Well, yes, might be good not to spam the thread, of course you can reply via pm.
nottm28
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 588
Merit: 500



View Profile
June 24, 2013, 09:25:12 PM
 #10568


I think that the problem is that we are looking at long term and you are looking short term. Yes, until the difficulty increase the time to find a block would decrease. And you would continue to find them at a constant rate. But, when he difficulty does go up, it will more than compensate for the previous "gift". At least i think it will. there are those that speculate that the date the last Bitcoin is mined is slowly moving closer.

I completely agree - but thats exactly what i said before. If someone else adds hashrate, my reward stays the same _until difficulty adjusts_.


nottm28:

Okay, we are getting near.
Lets say we have two pools, each with half the hasrate (say, 10 GH/s each).
Both find a block every 20 minutes, totalling for one block every 10 minutes.
Now one pool adds 20 GH/s. Network hashrate is doubled, blocks are found every 5 minutes.
One pool has 30 GH/s, tripled hashrate, finds 3 blocks in 20 minutes.
The other pool stays at 10 GH/s, finds one block every 20 minutes.
In total, 4 blocks in 20 minutes -> one block in 5.

One pool gets same number of blocks with same hasrate, so same income as before for all its miners.
The other pool gets three times the blocks, but every miner in it now has only one third of the relative hashing power, so he gets one third of his usual rewar per block -> same income as before.

I agree with you, only "in the meantime, your reward will have dropped" i cant see.

EDIT: Well, yes, might be good not to spam the thread, of course you can reply via pm.

Before:

Pool A, 10 GH/s, 20 mins per block, 25 coins earned
Pool B, 10 GH/s, 20 mins per block, 25 coins earned

Me in pool A, 1 GH/s, 20 mins per block, 2.5 coins earned

After: (difficulty not increased)

Pool A, 10 GH/s, 30 mins per block, 25 coins earned
Pool B, 30 GH/s, 10 mins per block, 25 coins earned

Me in pool A, 1 GH/s, 30 mins per block, 2.5 coins earned

In your scenario, my own earnings jump down from 2.5 coins per 20 mins to 2.5 coins per 30 mins...

donations not accepted
gourmet
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 311
Merit: 250


View Profile
June 24, 2013, 09:35:35 PM
 #10569

Why should my reward go down?
The frequency in which i find blocks with a given difficulty does not depend on the network hashrate in any way.

If that 'someone' suddenly plugged in their 100 TH/s miner into slush's pool, you would see a smaller share of the pot - result - reward goes down. If they plugged it into another pool then slush's pool would find blocks less frequently (more competition) - result - reward goes down.


1) Reward per block found by the pool goes down, but number of blocks found goes up -> reward stays the same.
2) No, how many blocks slush' pool finds does not decrease when some other pool gets more hashing power, see the post i just wrote before yours.

If there was some mechanism to make our pool find less blocks if some other finds more, we would never need a difficulty adjustment.

There is nothing like "more competition".
You are rolling dice in a casino. You get a dollar on every 5 or 6.
If a thousand other people start doing it too, you still earn the same money.
Only when the casino decides to only pay out on 6 and no more on 5 (difficulty adjust), you suddenly earn less.

Thank you for your effort, Trasla.. It's been only a week since I've been trying to explain the same thing...
Trongersoll
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 490
Merit: 500



View Profile
June 24, 2013, 09:38:06 PM
 #10570

WWooHoo!!!! I've finally mined my first full bitcoin to completion. only took me, um... 2 months? well the next one should come quicker. (I hope) *kicks computer* "Hash faster!!" Shocked
gourmet
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 311
Merit: 250


View Profile
June 24, 2013, 09:58:00 PM
 #10571


I think that the problem is that we are looking at long term and you are looking short term. Yes, until the difficulty increase the time to find a block would decrease. And you would continue to find them at a constant rate. But, when he difficulty does go up, it will more than compensate for the previous "gift". At least i think it will. there are those that speculate that the date the last Bitcoin is mined is slowly moving closer.

I completely agree - but thats exactly what i said before. If someone else adds hashrate, my reward stays the same _until difficulty adjusts_.


nottm28:

Okay, we are getting near.
Lets say we have two pools, each with half the hasrate (say, 10 GH/s each).
Both find a block every 20 minutes, totalling for one block every 10 minutes.
Now one pool adds 20 GH/s. Network hashrate is doubled, blocks are found every 5 minutes.
One pool has 30 GH/s, tripled hashrate, finds 3 blocks in 20 minutes.
The other pool stays at 10 GH/s, finds one block every 20 minutes.
In total, 4 blocks in 20 minutes -> one block in 5.

One pool gets same number of blocks with same hasrate, so same income as before for all its miners.
The other pool gets three times the blocks, but every miner in it now has only one third of the relative hashing power, so he gets one third of his usual rewar per block -> same income as before.
(emphasis by gourmet)

I agree with you, only "in the meantime, your reward will have dropped" i cant see.

EDIT: Well, yes, might be good not to spam the thread, of course you can reply via pm.

Before:

Pool A, 10 GH/s, 20 mins per block, 25 coins earned
Pool B, 10 GH/s, 20 mins per block, 25 coins earned

Me in pool A, 1 GH/s, 20 mins per block, 2.5 coins earned

After: (difficulty not increased)

Pool A, 10 GH/s, 30 mins per block, 25 coins earned
Pool B, 30 GH/s, 10 mins per block, 25 coins earned

Me in pool A, 1 GH/s, 30 mins per block, 2.5 coins earned

In your scenario, my own earnings jump down from 2.5 coins per 20 mins to 2.5 coins per 30 mins...

Why you have changed trasla's numbers???

The calculation should look like this:

Before:

Pool A, 10 GH/s, 20 mins per block, 25 coins earned
Pool B, 10 GH/s, 20 mins per block, 25 coins earned

Me in pool A, 1 GH/s, 20 mins per block, 2.5 coins earned

After: (difficulty not increased)

Pool A, 10 GH/s, 30 mins per block, 25 coins earned (your nonsense change)
Pool A, 10 GH/s, still 20 mins per block, 25 coins earned (real)
Pool B, 30 GH/s, 10 mins per block, 25 coins earned (your nonsense change)
Pool B, 30 GH/s, 20 mins per 3 blocks, 75 coins earned (real)

Me in pool A, 1 GH/s, 20 mins per block, 2.5 coins earned as before
nottm28
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 588
Merit: 500



View Profile
June 24, 2013, 10:10:04 PM
 #10572

Actually they were my numbers but there you go... we were just discussing things - now offline...

donations not accepted
gourmet
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 311
Merit: 250


View Profile
June 24, 2013, 10:34:53 PM
 #10573

Pools hashrate does not matter, really.
The higher it is, the smoother your earnings will be, but its either bigger parts of fewer blocks or smaller parts of more blocks, average the same, as long as the difficulty stays the same.

The only one who should care is Slush, as he gets his %% from the pool blocks... ;-)
5120-01-518-6126
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 175
Merit: 100


< My mining rig >


View Profile
June 24, 2013, 10:38:46 PM
 #10574


I think that the problem is that we are looking at long term and you are looking short term. Yes, until the difficulty increase the time to find a block would decrease. And you would continue to find them at a constant rate. But, when he difficulty does go up, it will more than compensate for the previous "gift". At least i think it will. there are those that speculate that the date the last Bitcoin is mined is slowly moving closer.


If you mean the last bitcoin mined by design, that won't happen until sometime in 2041 -- but there are things that could shut down the network before then, and somebody will be the last to find a block.
trasla
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 713
Merit: 500



View Profile
June 24, 2013, 10:45:14 PM
 #10575

Pool A, 10 GH/s, 20 mins per block, 25 coins earned
Pool B, 10 GH/s, 20 mins per block, 25 coins earned

After: (difficulty not increased)

Pool A, 10 GH/s, 30 mins per block, 25 coins earned
Pool B, 30 GH/s, 10 mins per block, 25 coins earned

First, your "after" scenario would have 4 blocks per 30 minutes, thats one block in 7.5 minutes instead of one in 5. But thats not the point.
Different approach (all before difficulty adjusts):

We have only one pool. 10 GH/s, and it finds a block every ten minutes.
If we double the hashing power, thats 20 GH/s, and it will find double the number of blocks in the same time, thats 2 blocks per ten minutes.
If we let it have 100 GH/s, it will find ten times the blocks, thats 10 blocks per ten minutes.
Agreed?

Now imagine we split this 100 GH/s pool into two.
If we let both have the same hashing power, thats 50 GH/s each, and each will find half of the total number of blocks, thats 5 per ten minutes for each pool.
If we split 40-60, the pool with 40 GH/s will find 40% of blocks, thats 4 per ten minutes, and the other finds 60%, thats 6 blocks per ten minutes.
Agreed?

If we do split it 10-90, we will have one pool with 10 GH/s, finding 10% of total blocks, thats 1 in 10 minutes.
And one pool with 90 GH/s, finding 90% of blocks, thats 9 every ten minutes.
Agreed?

If so, compare beginning and end.
First: We have one pool with 10 GH/s, and it finds a block every ten minutes.
End: We still have one pool with 10 GH/s, and it still finds a block every ten minutes, although we suddenly have a second pool with 9 times the hashing power.

Conclusion: With the difficulty unchanged, the pool with 10 GH/s will find a block every ten minutes, no matter whether other pools exist or how fast they hash.

Only when difficulty is adjusted, the total network will again only find one block each ten minutes.
If we have one pool with 100 GH/s, it will now need 100 minutes instead of 10 to find its ten blocks, totalling one block per ten minutes.
If we instead have a pool with 10 GH/s and one with 90 GH/s, one will need 100 minutes for one block, the other needs 100 minutes for 9 blocks, total 10 blocks / 100 minutes.
After difficulty increase, the earnings of our 10 GH/s pool drop to 1/10.
Before the increase, earnings stay stable.


I can think of no more ways to explain this right now.
If you still dont believe, just explain this to me:

How is my pool supposed to even know about other pools hashrates?
Even if it would, why should my pool work slow on purpose, and find less blocks, just because some other pool did find more?

There is no function in the bitcoin client doing something like:
"Fuck, ASICMINER found a block _again_, thats definitely too many right now, lets just not report the next valid hash, to keep blocks/minutes stable!"
gourmet
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 311
Merit: 250


View Profile
June 24, 2013, 10:58:19 PM
 #10576

Actually they were my numbers but there you go... we were just discussing things - now offline...

They were not.

You have changed the A Pool "after" from 1 block in 20 min to 1 block in 30 min
You have changed the B Pool "after" from 3 blocks in 20 min to 1 block in 10 min

Trasla's post starts with Lets say we have two pools and continues with his numbers that you have eventually changed. They're definitely not yours.

So do not be lying here.
nottm28
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 588
Merit: 500



View Profile
June 24, 2013, 11:01:33 PM
 #10577

Actually they were my numbers but there you go... we were just discussing things - now offline...

They were not.

You have changed the A Pool "after" from 1 block in 20 min to 1 block in 30 min
You have changed the B Pool "after" from 3 blocks in 20 min to 1 block in 10 min

Trasla's post starts with Lets say we have two pools and continues with his numbers that you have eventually changed. They're definitely not yours.

So do not be lying here.

Okays, I will not be doing the lying. You win I give up.

donations not accepted
gourmet
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 311
Merit: 250


View Profile
June 24, 2013, 11:15:15 PM
 #10578

Different approach (all before difficulty adjusts):

We have only one pool. 10 GH/s, and it finds a block every ten minutes.
If we double the hashing power, thats 20 GH/s, and it will find double the number of blocks in the same time, thats 2 blocks per ten minutes.
If we let it have 100 GH/s, it will find ten times the blocks, thats 10 blocks per ten minutes.
Agreed?

Now imagine we split this 100 GH/s pool into two.
If we let both have the same hashing power, thats 50 GH/s each, and each will find half of the total number of blocks, thats 5 per ten minutes for each pool.
If we split 40-60, the pool with 40 GH/s will find 40% of blocks, thats 4 per ten minutes, and the other finds 60%, thats 6 blocks per ten minutes.
Agreed?

If we do split it 10-90, we will have one pool with 10 GH/s, finding 10% of total blocks, thats 1 in 10 minutes.
And one pool with 90 GH/s, finding 90% of blocks, thats 9 every ten minutes.
Agreed?

If so, compare beginning and end.
First: We have one pool with 10 GH/s, and it finds a block every ten minutes.
End: We still have one pool with 10 GH/s, and it still finds a block every ten minutes, although we suddenly have a second pool with 9 times the hashing power.

Conclusion: With the difficulty unchanged, the pool with 10 GH/s will find a block every ten minutes, no matter whether other pools exist or how fast they hash.

Only when difficulty is adjusted, the total network will again only find one block each ten minutes.
If we have one pool with 100 GH/s, it will now need 100 minutes instead of 10 to find its ten blocks, totalling one block per ten minutes.
If we instead have a pool with 10 GH/s and one with 90 GH/s, one will need 100 minutes for one block, the other needs 100 minutes for 9 blocks, total 10 blocks / 100 minutes.
After difficulty increase, the earnings of our 10 GH/s pool drop to 1/10.
Before the increase, earnings stay stable.

This post should be remembered. And carved in stone for next generations.
gourmet
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 311
Merit: 250


View Profile
June 25, 2013, 12:16:37 AM
 #10579

For those who're telling their reward goes down immediately as network power increases, it should do so. :-)))
(And we who're trying hard to explain should get the difference. Smiley )
visdude
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1020
Merit: 1001


View Profile
June 25, 2013, 12:40:45 AM
 #10580

Down and not pay. I'm worked 5hours for nothing, but Sulsh collected rewards.
18739   2013-06-24 13:11:51   0:00:14   41528      none   none   
18738   2013-06-24 13:11:37   5:25:06   35542283      4469   0.00000000   
18737   2013-06-24 07:46:31   1:48:18   28239829      2130   0.00313965

Same here.  I don't get much anyways and working for 5 hours for 0 is bad. Then I missed the fast one afterwards.  Angry

Same here:

18739    2013-06-24 13:11:51    0:00:14    41528         none    none
18738    2013-06-24 13:11:37    5:25:06    35542283    2853    0.00000000

Hm, none of them has reached the 55 activity limit... So no wonder...
(See activity values inserted in quote headers.)
And your point is...?  I don't know what you're talking about.  Is this something significant?  Significant enough that it would help me and others get paid for the 5+ hours of work?
Pages: « 1 ... 479 480 481 482 483 484 485 486 487 488 489 490 491 492 493 494 495 496 497 498 499 500 501 502 503 504 505 506 507 508 509 510 511 512 513 514 515 516 517 518 519 520 521 522 523 524 525 526 527 528 [529] 530 531 532 533 534 535 536 537 538 539 540 541 542 543 544 545 546 547 548 549 550 551 552 553 554 555 556 557 558 559 560 561 562 563 564 565 566 567 568 569 570 571 572 573 574 575 576 577 578 579 ... 1144 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!