nottm28


June 24, 2013, 09:25:12 PM 

I think that the problem is that we are looking at long term and you are looking short term. Yes, until the difficulty increase the time to find a block would decrease. And you would continue to find them at a constant rate. But, when he difficulty does go up, it will more than compensate for the previous "gift". At least i think it will. there are those that speculate that the date the last Bitcoin is mined is slowly moving closer.
I completely agree  but thats exactly what i said before. If someone else adds hashrate, my reward stays the same _until difficulty adjusts_. nottm28: Okay, we are getting near. Lets say we have two pools, each with half the hasrate (say, 10 GH/s each). Both find a block every 20 minutes, totalling for one block every 10 minutes. Now one pool adds 20 GH/s. Network hashrate is doubled, blocks are found every 5 minutes. One pool has 30 GH/s, tripled hashrate, finds 3 blocks in 20 minutes. The other pool stays at 10 GH/s, finds one block every 20 minutes. In total, 4 blocks in 20 minutes > one block in 5. One pool gets same number of blocks with same hasrate, so same income as before for all its miners. The other pool gets three times the blocks, but every miner in it now has only one third of the relative hashing power, so he gets one third of his usual rewar per block > same income as before. I agree with you, only "in the meantime, your reward will have dropped" i cant see. EDIT: Well, yes, might be good not to spam the thread, of course you can reply via pm. Before: Pool A, 10 GH/s, 20 mins per block, 25 coins earned Pool B, 10 GH/s, 20 mins per block, 25 coins earned Me in pool A, 1 GH/s, 20 mins per block, 2.5 coins earned After: (difficulty not increased) Pool A, 10 GH/s, 30 mins per block, 25 coins earned Pool B, 30 GH/s, 10 mins per block, 25 coins earned Me in pool A, 1 GH/s, 30 mins per block, 2.5 coins earned In your scenario, my own earnings jump down from 2.5 coins per 20 mins to 2.5 coins per 30 mins...

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gourmet


June 24, 2013, 09:35:35 PM 

Why should my reward go down? The frequency in which i find blocks with a given difficulty does not depend on the network hashrate in any way.
If that 'someone' suddenly plugged in their 100 TH/s miner into slush's pool, you would see a smaller share of the pot  result  reward goes down. If they plugged it into another pool then slush's pool would find blocks less frequently (more competition)  result  reward goes down. 1) Reward per block found by the pool goes down, but number of blocks found goes up > reward stays the same. 2) No, how many blocks slush' pool finds does not decrease when some other pool gets more hashing power, see the post i just wrote before yours. If there was some mechanism to make our pool find less blocks if some other finds more, we would never need a difficulty adjustment. There is nothing like "more competition". You are rolling dice in a casino. You get a dollar on every 5 or 6. If a thousand other people start doing it too, you still earn the same money. Only when the casino decides to only pay out on 6 and no more on 5 (difficulty adjust), you suddenly earn less. Thank you for your effort, Trasla.. It's been only a week since I've been trying to explain the same thing...




Trongersoll


June 24, 2013, 09:38:06 PM 

WWooHoo!!!! I've finally mined my first full bitcoin to completion. only took me, um... 2 months? well the next one should come quicker. (I hope) *kicks computer* "Hash faster!!"




gourmet


June 24, 2013, 09:58:00 PM 

I think that the problem is that we are looking at long term and you are looking short term. Yes, until the difficulty increase the time to find a block would decrease. And you would continue to find them at a constant rate. But, when he difficulty does go up, it will more than compensate for the previous "gift". At least i think it will. there are those that speculate that the date the last Bitcoin is mined is slowly moving closer.
I completely agree  but thats exactly what i said before. If someone else adds hashrate, my reward stays the same _until difficulty adjusts_. nottm28: Okay, we are getting near. Lets say we have two pools, each with half the hasrate (say, 10 GH/s each). Both find a block every 20 minutes, totalling for one block every 10 minutes. Now one pool adds 20 GH/s. Network hashrate is doubled, blocks are found every 5 minutes. One pool has 30 GH/s, tripled hashrate, finds 3 blocks in 20 minutes. The other pool stays at 10 GH/s, finds one block every 20 minutes. In total, 4 blocks in 20 minutes > one block in 5. One pool gets same number of blocks with same hasrate, so same income as before for all its miners. The other pool gets three times the blocks, but every miner in it now has only one third of the relative hashing power, so he gets one third of his usual rewar per block > same income as before. (emphasis by gourmet)I agree with you, only "in the meantime, your reward will have dropped" i cant see. EDIT: Well, yes, might be good not to spam the thread, of course you can reply via pm. Before: Pool A, 10 GH/s, 20 mins per block, 25 coins earned Pool B, 10 GH/s, 20 mins per block, 25 coins earned Me in pool A, 1 GH/s, 20 mins per block, 2.5 coins earned After: (difficulty not increased) Pool A, 10 GH/s, 30 mins per block, 25 coins earned Pool B, 30 GH/s, 10 mins per block, 25 coins earned Me in pool A, 1 GH/s, 30 mins per block, 2.5 coins earned In your scenario, my own earnings jump down from 2.5 coins per 20 mins to 2.5 coins per 30 mins... Why you have changed trasla's numbers???The calculation should look like this: Before: Pool A, 10 GH/s, 20 mins per block, 25 coins earned Pool B, 10 GH/s, 20 mins per block, 25 coins earned Me in pool A, 1 GH/s, 20 mins per block, 2.5 coins earned After: (difficulty not increased) Pool A, 10 GH/s, 30 mins per block, 25 coins earned (your nonsense change) Pool A, 10 GH/s, still 20 mins per block, 25 coins earned (real) Pool B, 30 GH/s, 10 mins per block, 25 coins earned (your nonsense change) Pool B, 30 GH/s, 20 mins per 3 blocks, 75 coins earned (real) Me in pool A, 1 GH/s, 20 mins per block, 2.5 coins earned as before




nottm28


June 24, 2013, 10:10:04 PM 

Actually they were my numbers but there you go... we were just discussing things  now offline...

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gourmet


June 24, 2013, 10:34:53 PM 

Pools hashrate does not matter, really. The higher it is, the smoother your earnings will be, but its either bigger parts of fewer blocks or smaller parts of more blocks, average the same, as long as the difficulty stays the same.
The only one who should care is Slush, as he gets his %% from the pool blocks... ;)




5120015186126


June 24, 2013, 10:38:46 PM 

I think that the problem is that we are looking at long term and you are looking short term. Yes, until the difficulty increase the time to find a block would decrease. And you would continue to find them at a constant rate. But, when he difficulty does go up, it will more than compensate for the previous "gift". At least i think it will. there are those that speculate that the date the last Bitcoin is mined is slowly moving closer.
If you mean the last bitcoin mined by design, that won't happen until sometime in 2041  but there are things that could shut down the network before then, and somebody will be the last to find a block.




trasla


June 24, 2013, 10:45:14 PM 

Pool A, 10 GH/s, 20 mins per block, 25 coins earned Pool B, 10 GH/s, 20 mins per block, 25 coins earned
After: (difficulty not increased)
Pool A, 10 GH/s, 30 mins per block, 25 coins earned Pool B, 30 GH/s, 10 mins per block, 25 coins earned
First, your "after" scenario would have 4 blocks per 30 minutes, thats one block in 7.5 minutes instead of one in 5. But thats not the point. Different approach (all before difficulty adjusts): We have only one pool. 10 GH/s, and it finds a block every ten minutes. If we double the hashing power, thats 20 GH/s, and it will find double the number of blocks in the same time, thats 2 blocks per ten minutes. If we let it have 100 GH/s, it will find ten times the blocks, thats 10 blocks per ten minutes. Agreed? Now imagine we split this 100 GH/s pool into two. If we let both have the same hashing power, thats 50 GH/s each, and each will find half of the total number of blocks, thats 5 per ten minutes for each pool. If we split 4060, the pool with 40 GH/s will find 40% of blocks, thats 4 per ten minutes, and the other finds 60%, thats 6 blocks per ten minutes. Agreed? If we do split it 1090, we will have one pool with 10 GH/s, finding 10% of total blocks, thats 1 in 10 minutes. And one pool with 90 GH/s, finding 90% of blocks, thats 9 every ten minutes. Agreed? If so, compare beginning and end. First: We have one pool with 10 GH/s, and it finds a block every ten minutes. End: We still have one pool with 10 GH/s, and it still finds a block every ten minutes, although we suddenly have a second pool with 9 times the hashing power. Conclusion: With the difficulty unchanged, the pool with 10 GH/s will find a block every ten minutes, no matter whether other pools exist or how fast they hash. Only when difficulty is adjusted, the total network will again only find one block each ten minutes. If we have one pool with 100 GH/s, it will now need 100 minutes instead of 10 to find its ten blocks, totalling one block per ten minutes. If we instead have a pool with 10 GH/s and one with 90 GH/s, one will need 100 minutes for one block, the other needs 100 minutes for 9 blocks, total 10 blocks / 100 minutes. After difficulty increase, the earnings of our 10 GH/s pool drop to 1/10. Before the increase, earnings stay stable. I can think of no more ways to explain this right now. If you still dont believe, just explain this to me:
How is my pool supposed to even know about other pools hashrates? Even if it would, why should my pool work slow on purpose, and find less blocks, just because some other pool did find more?There is no function in the bitcoin client doing something like: "Fuck, ASICMINER found a block _again_, thats definitely too many right now, lets just not report the next valid hash, to keep blocks/minutes stable!"




gourmet


June 24, 2013, 10:58:19 PM 

Actually they were my numbers but there you go... we were just discussing things  now offline...
They were not. You have changed the A Pool "after" from 1 block in 20 min to 1 block in 30 min You have changed the B Pool "after" from 3 blocks in 20 min to 1 block in 10 min Trasla's post starts with Lets say we have two pools and continues with his numbers that you have eventually changed. They're definitely not yours. So do not be lying here.




nottm28


June 24, 2013, 11:01:33 PM 

Actually they were my numbers but there you go... we were just discussing things  now offline...
They were not. You have changed the A Pool "after" from 1 block in 20 min to 1 block in 30 min You have changed the B Pool "after" from 3 blocks in 20 min to 1 block in 10 min Trasla's post starts with Lets say we have two pools and continues with his numbers that you have eventually changed. They're definitely not yours. So do not be lying here. Okays, I will not be doing the lying. You win I give up.

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gourmet


June 24, 2013, 11:15:15 PM 

Different approach (all before difficulty adjusts):
We have only one pool. 10 GH/s, and it finds a block every ten minutes. If we double the hashing power, thats 20 GH/s, and it will find double the number of blocks in the same time, thats 2 blocks per ten minutes. If we let it have 100 GH/s, it will find ten times the blocks, thats 10 blocks per ten minutes. Agreed?
Now imagine we split this 100 GH/s pool into two. If we let both have the same hashing power, thats 50 GH/s each, and each will find half of the total number of blocks, thats 5 per ten minutes for each pool. If we split 4060, the pool with 40 GH/s will find 40% of blocks, thats 4 per ten minutes, and the other finds 60%, thats 6 blocks per ten minutes. Agreed?
If we do split it 1090, we will have one pool with 10 GH/s, finding 10% of total blocks, thats 1 in 10 minutes. And one pool with 90 GH/s, finding 90% of blocks, thats 9 every ten minutes. Agreed?
If so, compare beginning and end. First: We have one pool with 10 GH/s, and it finds a block every ten minutes. End: We still have one pool with 10 GH/s, and it still finds a block every ten minutes, although we suddenly have a second pool with 9 times the hashing power.
Conclusion: With the difficulty unchanged, the pool with 10 GH/s will find a block every ten minutes, no matter whether other pools exist or how fast they hash.
Only when difficulty is adjusted, the total network will again only find one block each ten minutes. If we have one pool with 100 GH/s, it will now need 100 minutes instead of 10 to find its ten blocks, totalling one block per ten minutes. If we instead have a pool with 10 GH/s and one with 90 GH/s, one will need 100 minutes for one block, the other needs 100 minutes for 9 blocks, total 10 blocks / 100 minutes. After difficulty increase, the earnings of our 10 GH/s pool drop to 1/10. Before the increase, earnings stay stable.
This post should be remembered. And carved in stone for next generations.




gourmet


June 25, 2013, 12:16:37 AM 

For those who're telling their reward goes down immediately as network power increases, it should do so. :))) (And we who're trying hard to explain should get the difference. )




visdude


June 25, 2013, 12:40:45 AM 

Down and not pay. I'm worked 5hours for nothing, but Sulsh collected rewards. 18739 20130624 13:11:51 0:00:14 41528 none none 18738 20130624 13:11:37 5:25:06 35542283 4469 0.00000000 18737 20130624 07:46:31 1:48:18 28239829 2130 0.00313965
Same here. I don't get much anyways and working for 5 hours for 0 is bad. Then I missed the fast one afterwards. Same here:
18739 20130624 13:11:51 0:00:14 41528 none none 18738 20130624 13:11:37 5:25:06 35542283 2853 0.00000000
Hm, none of them has reached the 55 activity limit... So no wonder... (See activity values inserted in quote headers.) And your point is...? I don't know what you're talking about. Is this something significant? Significant enough that it would help me and others get paid for the 5+ hours of work?




bitzip
Jr. Member
Offline
Activity: 54


June 25, 2013, 01:14:50 AM 

The bottom line is if you don't like the reward you are getting, the only thing you can do is enter the arms race and add more hashing power. Changing the subject: What's up with Namecoins? Are they dead?




Tsunamirain


June 25, 2013, 02:23:29 AM 

Wondering the same. ??




Zarthalyn
Newbie
Offline
Activity: 5
nice


June 25, 2013, 05:02:20 AM 

mmmm....namecoins....

Help me fund my hardware!: 1HwurVTu5cPpKqhgmD5wgGk4qhGJsX2AZT For the love of Pete, before difficulty increases again!!



bspurloc


June 25, 2013, 05:35:49 AM 

Why should my reward go down? The frequency in which i find blocks with a given difficulty does not depend on the network hashrate in any way.
If that 'someone' suddenly plugged in their 100 TH/s miner into slush's pool, you would see a smaller share of the pot  result  reward goes down. If they plugged it into another pool then slush's pool would find blocks less frequently (more competition)  result  reward goes down. [EDIT] bottom line is hash rate rules, difficulty follows in order to try and keep 1 block found every 10 mins. exactly.... IF the Pool hashrate stays at 18th/s and we do 15 blocks a day we all get the same pay out. if the diff goes up tomorrow and we do 15 blocks a day hashrate is 18th/s we all get the same pay out as the previous increase. if the diff goes up again and we do 15 blocks a day hashrate still at 18th/s we get the same pay out as the previous, previous increase. and note that is exactly what is going on... LUCK dictates if we get less blocks more over the diff, due to we have 18th/s working.




SJet2003
Newbie
Offline
Activity: 14


June 25, 2013, 05:58:03 AM 

Are we still having problems with incorrect rewards?!
18745 20130624 18:20:26 0:58:13 13854655 5595 0.00049284 243130 25.29840001 27 confirmations left 18744 20130624 17:22:13 1:35:26 23063864 11274 0.00541303 243124 25.51660776 21 confirmations left
Unless my math skills are failing me (again) my reward should be  18745 = 0.0100120614403485 and 18744 = 0.0122234830715493 I've flicked back a few pages but can't see anyone reporting the same problem for these blocks :S
**EDIT** Forgot to minus 2% for fees.




trasla


June 25, 2013, 08:04:19 AM 

Earnings are not distributed based on number of shares, but based on score. Note that shares submitted later in the round earn higher scores. Thats not to say you shouldnt have earned more, but just checking the ratio own shares / total shares isnt enough.




solari


June 25, 2013, 08:17:44 AM 

I´m new in this pool. I´m earning BTCs but no Namecoins. What shoud I do to earn Namecoins? Is this not possible at the moment but in the future?




