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Question: What type of pool payouts do you prefer?
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Author Topic: [150+ PH] SlushPool (slushpool.com); World's First Mining Pool  (Read 3981922 times)
nottm28
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June 24, 2013, 09:25:12 PM
 #10581


I think that the problem is that we are looking at long term and you are looking short term. Yes, until the difficulty increase the time to find a block would decrease. And you would continue to find them at a constant rate. But, when he difficulty does go up, it will more than compensate for the previous "gift". At least i think it will. there are those that speculate that the date the last Bitcoin is mined is slowly moving closer.

I completely agree - but thats exactly what i said before. If someone else adds hashrate, my reward stays the same _until difficulty adjusts_.


nottm28:

Okay, we are getting near.
Lets say we have two pools, each with half the hasrate (say, 10 GH/s each).
Both find a block every 20 minutes, totalling for one block every 10 minutes.
Now one pool adds 20 GH/s. Network hashrate is doubled, blocks are found every 5 minutes.
One pool has 30 GH/s, tripled hashrate, finds 3 blocks in 20 minutes.
The other pool stays at 10 GH/s, finds one block every 20 minutes.
In total, 4 blocks in 20 minutes -> one block in 5.

One pool gets same number of blocks with same hasrate, so same income as before for all its miners.
The other pool gets three times the blocks, but every miner in it now has only one third of the relative hashing power, so he gets one third of his usual rewar per block -> same income as before.

I agree with you, only "in the meantime, your reward will have dropped" i cant see.

EDIT: Well, yes, might be good not to spam the thread, of course you can reply via pm.

Before:

Pool A, 10 GH/s, 20 mins per block, 25 coins earned
Pool B, 10 GH/s, 20 mins per block, 25 coins earned

Me in pool A, 1 GH/s, 20 mins per block, 2.5 coins earned

After: (difficulty not increased)

Pool A, 10 GH/s, 30 mins per block, 25 coins earned
Pool B, 30 GH/s, 10 mins per block, 25 coins earned

Me in pool A, 1 GH/s, 30 mins per block, 2.5 coins earned

In your scenario, my own earnings jump down from 2.5 coins per 20 mins to 2.5 coins per 30 mins...

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gourmet
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June 24, 2013, 09:35:35 PM
 #10582

Why should my reward go down?
The frequency in which i find blocks with a given difficulty does not depend on the network hashrate in any way.

If that 'someone' suddenly plugged in their 100 TH/s miner into slush's pool, you would see a smaller share of the pot - result - reward goes down. If they plugged it into another pool then slush's pool would find blocks less frequently (more competition) - result - reward goes down.


1) Reward per block found by the pool goes down, but number of blocks found goes up -> reward stays the same.
2) No, how many blocks slush' pool finds does not decrease when some other pool gets more hashing power, see the post i just wrote before yours.

If there was some mechanism to make our pool find less blocks if some other finds more, we would never need a difficulty adjustment.

There is nothing like "more competition".
You are rolling dice in a casino. You get a dollar on every 5 or 6.
If a thousand other people start doing it too, you still earn the same money.
Only when the casino decides to only pay out on 6 and no more on 5 (difficulty adjust), you suddenly earn less.

Thank you for your effort, Trasla.. It's been only a week since I've been trying to explain the same thing...
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June 24, 2013, 09:38:06 PM
 #10583

WWooHoo!!!! I've finally mined my first full bitcoin to completion. only took me, um... 2 months? well the next one should come quicker. (I hope) *kicks computer* "Hash faster!!" Shocked

*insert appropriate begging line here* 
BTC: 1CS6AV7VnjcPLxaTFoUhTjXK4mQCTzfSxE
Doge: DB22tiynvXKg7SyPpnH9jyfitKLTZb6ejc
gourmet
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June 24, 2013, 09:58:00 PM
 #10584


I think that the problem is that we are looking at long term and you are looking short term. Yes, until the difficulty increase the time to find a block would decrease. And you would continue to find them at a constant rate. But, when he difficulty does go up, it will more than compensate for the previous "gift". At least i think it will. there are those that speculate that the date the last Bitcoin is mined is slowly moving closer.

I completely agree - but thats exactly what i said before. If someone else adds hashrate, my reward stays the same _until difficulty adjusts_.


nottm28:

Okay, we are getting near.
Lets say we have two pools, each with half the hasrate (say, 10 GH/s each).
Both find a block every 20 minutes, totalling for one block every 10 minutes.
Now one pool adds 20 GH/s. Network hashrate is doubled, blocks are found every 5 minutes.
One pool has 30 GH/s, tripled hashrate, finds 3 blocks in 20 minutes.
The other pool stays at 10 GH/s, finds one block every 20 minutes.
In total, 4 blocks in 20 minutes -> one block in 5.

One pool gets same number of blocks with same hasrate, so same income as before for all its miners.
The other pool gets three times the blocks, but every miner in it now has only one third of the relative hashing power, so he gets one third of his usual rewar per block -> same income as before.
(emphasis by gourmet)

I agree with you, only "in the meantime, your reward will have dropped" i cant see.

EDIT: Well, yes, might be good not to spam the thread, of course you can reply via pm.

Before:

Pool A, 10 GH/s, 20 mins per block, 25 coins earned
Pool B, 10 GH/s, 20 mins per block, 25 coins earned

Me in pool A, 1 GH/s, 20 mins per block, 2.5 coins earned

After: (difficulty not increased)

Pool A, 10 GH/s, 30 mins per block, 25 coins earned
Pool B, 30 GH/s, 10 mins per block, 25 coins earned

Me in pool A, 1 GH/s, 30 mins per block, 2.5 coins earned

In your scenario, my own earnings jump down from 2.5 coins per 20 mins to 2.5 coins per 30 mins...

Why you have changed trasla's numbers???

The calculation should look like this:

Before:

Pool A, 10 GH/s, 20 mins per block, 25 coins earned
Pool B, 10 GH/s, 20 mins per block, 25 coins earned

Me in pool A, 1 GH/s, 20 mins per block, 2.5 coins earned

After: (difficulty not increased)

Pool A, 10 GH/s, 30 mins per block, 25 coins earned (your nonsense change)
Pool A, 10 GH/s, still 20 mins per block, 25 coins earned (real)
Pool B, 30 GH/s, 10 mins per block, 25 coins earned (your nonsense change)
Pool B, 30 GH/s, 20 mins per 3 blocks, 75 coins earned (real)

Me in pool A, 1 GH/s, 20 mins per block, 2.5 coins earned as before
nottm28
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June 24, 2013, 10:10:04 PM
 #10585

Actually they were my numbers but there you go... we were just discussing things - now offline...

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gourmet
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June 24, 2013, 10:34:53 PM
 #10586

Pools hashrate does not matter, really.
The higher it is, the smoother your earnings will be, but its either bigger parts of fewer blocks or smaller parts of more blocks, average the same, as long as the difficulty stays the same.

The only one who should care is Slush, as he gets his %% from the pool blocks... ;-)
5120-01-518-6126
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June 24, 2013, 10:38:46 PM
 #10587


I think that the problem is that we are looking at long term and you are looking short term. Yes, until the difficulty increase the time to find a block would decrease. And you would continue to find them at a constant rate. But, when he difficulty does go up, it will more than compensate for the previous "gift". At least i think it will. there are those that speculate that the date the last Bitcoin is mined is slowly moving closer.


If you mean the last bitcoin mined by design, that won't happen until sometime in 2041 -- but there are things that could shut down the network before then, and somebody will be the last to find a block.
trasla
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June 24, 2013, 10:45:14 PM
 #10588

Pool A, 10 GH/s, 20 mins per block, 25 coins earned
Pool B, 10 GH/s, 20 mins per block, 25 coins earned

After: (difficulty not increased)

Pool A, 10 GH/s, 30 mins per block, 25 coins earned
Pool B, 30 GH/s, 10 mins per block, 25 coins earned

First, your "after" scenario would have 4 blocks per 30 minutes, thats one block in 7.5 minutes instead of one in 5. But thats not the point.
Different approach (all before difficulty adjusts):

We have only one pool. 10 GH/s, and it finds a block every ten minutes.
If we double the hashing power, thats 20 GH/s, and it will find double the number of blocks in the same time, thats 2 blocks per ten minutes.
If we let it have 100 GH/s, it will find ten times the blocks, thats 10 blocks per ten minutes.
Agreed?

Now imagine we split this 100 GH/s pool into two.
If we let both have the same hashing power, thats 50 GH/s each, and each will find half of the total number of blocks, thats 5 per ten minutes for each pool.
If we split 40-60, the pool with 40 GH/s will find 40% of blocks, thats 4 per ten minutes, and the other finds 60%, thats 6 blocks per ten minutes.
Agreed?

If we do split it 10-90, we will have one pool with 10 GH/s, finding 10% of total blocks, thats 1 in 10 minutes.
And one pool with 90 GH/s, finding 90% of blocks, thats 9 every ten minutes.
Agreed?

If so, compare beginning and end.
First: We have one pool with 10 GH/s, and it finds a block every ten minutes.
End: We still have one pool with 10 GH/s, and it still finds a block every ten minutes, although we suddenly have a second pool with 9 times the hashing power.

Conclusion: With the difficulty unchanged, the pool with 10 GH/s will find a block every ten minutes, no matter whether other pools exist or how fast they hash.

Only when difficulty is adjusted, the total network will again only find one block each ten minutes.
If we have one pool with 100 GH/s, it will now need 100 minutes instead of 10 to find its ten blocks, totalling one block per ten minutes.
If we instead have a pool with 10 GH/s and one with 90 GH/s, one will need 100 minutes for one block, the other needs 100 minutes for 9 blocks, total 10 blocks / 100 minutes.
After difficulty increase, the earnings of our 10 GH/s pool drop to 1/10.
Before the increase, earnings stay stable.


I can think of no more ways to explain this right now.
If you still dont believe, just explain this to me:

How is my pool supposed to even know about other pools hashrates?
Even if it would, why should my pool work slow on purpose, and find less blocks, just because some other pool did find more?

There is no function in the bitcoin client doing something like:
"Fuck, ASICMINER found a block _again_, thats definitely too many right now, lets just not report the next valid hash, to keep blocks/minutes stable!"
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June 24, 2013, 10:58:19 PM
 #10589

Actually they were my numbers but there you go... we were just discussing things - now offline...

They were not.

You have changed the A Pool "after" from 1 block in 20 min to 1 block in 30 min
You have changed the B Pool "after" from 3 blocks in 20 min to 1 block in 10 min

Trasla's post starts with Lets say we have two pools and continues with his numbers that you have eventually changed. They're definitely not yours.

So do not be lying here.
nottm28
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June 24, 2013, 11:01:33 PM
 #10590

Actually they were my numbers but there you go... we were just discussing things - now offline...

They were not.

You have changed the A Pool "after" from 1 block in 20 min to 1 block in 30 min
You have changed the B Pool "after" from 3 blocks in 20 min to 1 block in 10 min

Trasla's post starts with Lets say we have two pools and continues with his numbers that you have eventually changed. They're definitely not yours.

So do not be lying here.

Okays, I will not be doing the lying. You win I give up.

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gourmet
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June 24, 2013, 11:15:15 PM
 #10591

Different approach (all before difficulty adjusts):

We have only one pool. 10 GH/s, and it finds a block every ten minutes.
If we double the hashing power, thats 20 GH/s, and it will find double the number of blocks in the same time, thats 2 blocks per ten minutes.
If we let it have 100 GH/s, it will find ten times the blocks, thats 10 blocks per ten minutes.
Agreed?

Now imagine we split this 100 GH/s pool into two.
If we let both have the same hashing power, thats 50 GH/s each, and each will find half of the total number of blocks, thats 5 per ten minutes for each pool.
If we split 40-60, the pool with 40 GH/s will find 40% of blocks, thats 4 per ten minutes, and the other finds 60%, thats 6 blocks per ten minutes.
Agreed?

If we do split it 10-90, we will have one pool with 10 GH/s, finding 10% of total blocks, thats 1 in 10 minutes.
And one pool with 90 GH/s, finding 90% of blocks, thats 9 every ten minutes.
Agreed?

If so, compare beginning and end.
First: We have one pool with 10 GH/s, and it finds a block every ten minutes.
End: We still have one pool with 10 GH/s, and it still finds a block every ten minutes, although we suddenly have a second pool with 9 times the hashing power.

Conclusion: With the difficulty unchanged, the pool with 10 GH/s will find a block every ten minutes, no matter whether other pools exist or how fast they hash.

Only when difficulty is adjusted, the total network will again only find one block each ten minutes.
If we have one pool with 100 GH/s, it will now need 100 minutes instead of 10 to find its ten blocks, totalling one block per ten minutes.
If we instead have a pool with 10 GH/s and one with 90 GH/s, one will need 100 minutes for one block, the other needs 100 minutes for 9 blocks, total 10 blocks / 100 minutes.
After difficulty increase, the earnings of our 10 GH/s pool drop to 1/10.
Before the increase, earnings stay stable.

This post should be remembered. And carved in stone for next generations.
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June 25, 2013, 12:16:37 AM
 #10592

For those who're telling their reward goes down immediately as network power increases, it should do so. :-)))
(And we who're trying hard to explain should get the difference. Smiley )
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June 25, 2013, 12:40:45 AM
 #10593

Down and not pay. I'm worked 5hours for nothing, but Sulsh collected rewards.
18739   2013-06-24 13:11:51   0:00:14   41528      none   none   
18738   2013-06-24 13:11:37   5:25:06   35542283      4469   0.00000000   
18737   2013-06-24 07:46:31   1:48:18   28239829      2130   0.00313965

Same here.  I don't get much anyways and working for 5 hours for 0 is bad. Then I missed the fast one afterwards.  Angry

Same here:

18739    2013-06-24 13:11:51    0:00:14    41528         none    none
18738    2013-06-24 13:11:37    5:25:06    35542283    2853    0.00000000

Hm, none of them has reached the 55 activity limit... So no wonder...
(See activity values inserted in quote headers.)
And your point is...?  I don't know what you're talking about.  Is this something significant?  Significant enough that it would help me and others get paid for the 5+ hours of work?
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June 25, 2013, 01:14:50 AM
 #10594

The bottom line is if you don't like the reward you are getting, the only thing you can do is enter the arms race and add more hashing power. Undecided

Changing the subject:

What's up with Namecoins?  Are they dead?
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June 25, 2013, 02:23:29 AM
 #10595

Wondering the same. ??

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nice


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June 25, 2013, 05:02:20 AM
 #10596

mmmm....namecoins....   Roll Eyes

Help me fund my hardware!:  1HwurVTu5cPpKqhgmD5wgGk4qhGJsX2AZT
For the love of Pete, before difficulty increases again!!
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June 25, 2013, 05:35:49 AM
 #10597

Why should my reward go down?
The frequency in which i find blocks with a given difficulty does not depend on the network hashrate in any way.

If that 'someone' suddenly plugged in their 100 TH/s miner into slush's pool, you would see a smaller share of the pot - result - reward goes down. If they plugged it into another pool then slush's pool would find blocks less frequently (more competition) - result - reward goes down.

[EDIT] bottom line is hash rate rules, difficulty follows in order to try and keep 1 block found every 10 mins.

exactly....
IF the Pool hashrate stays at 18th/s and we do 15 blocks a day we all get the same pay out.
if the diff goes up tomorrow and we do 15 blocks a day hashrate is 18th/s we all get the same pay out as the previous increase.
if the diff goes up again and we do 15 blocks a day hashrate still at 18th/s we get the same pay out as the previous, previous increase.

  and note that is exactly what is going on... LUCK dictates if we get less blocks more over the diff, due to we have 18th/s working.
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June 25, 2013, 05:58:03 AM
 #10598

Are we still having problems with incorrect rewards?!

18745   2013-06-24 18:20:26   0:58:13   13854655   5595   0.00049284   243130   25.29840001    27 confirmations left
18744   2013-06-24 17:22:13   1:35:26   23063864   11274   0.00541303   243124   25.51660776    21 confirmations left


Unless my math skills are failing me (again) my reward should be - 18745 = 0.0100120614403485 and 18744 = 0.0122234830715493
I've flicked back a few pages but can't see anyone reporting the same problem for these blocks :S

**EDIT**
Forgot to minus 2% for fees.
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June 25, 2013, 08:04:19 AM
 #10599

Earnings are not distributed based on number of shares, but based on score.
Note that shares submitted later in the round earn higher scores.
Thats not to say you shouldnt have earned more, but just checking the ratio own shares / total shares isnt enough.
Smiley
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June 25, 2013, 08:17:44 AM
 #10600

I´m new in this pool.
I´m earning BTCs but no Namecoins.
What shoud I do to earn Namecoins?
Is this not possible at the moment but in the future?
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