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Question: What type of pool payouts do you prefer?
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Author Topic: [150+ PH] SlushPool (slushpool.com); World's First Mining Pool  (Read 4319506 times)
gourmet
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June 29, 2013, 07:57:17 AM
 #10781

Mining at the beginning of a round is better no matter what. It's better because if you find a block before anyone else submits a share, you get the same reward as if you were solo mining and if a block is found shortly after you submit a share, you get a non-zero payout. Thus mining at the very beginning of a round is better than solo mining and clearly it cannot always be better than solo mining.

All you must do to show that a pool is vulnerable to hopping is show that there is some point that an attacker can identify at which the expected return exceeds the expected return for solo mining. If I understand this payout method correctly, it has such a point -- before the first share is submitted in a round.

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Besides, in your example, if someone else submits a share and you mine a block very shortly after, you only get part of it - thats not better than solo.
I agree. That's why the pool is vulnerable to hopping.

That's why it is not.

Besides, in your example, if someone else submits a share and you mine a block very shortly after, you only get part of it - thats not better than solo.

That's the point.

You have to take into account all possibilities.

Consider the first two shares in the round, one of them being the block.
  • You 1st, block, other 2nd, no block
  • You 1st, no block, other 2nd, block
  • Other 1st, block, you 2nd, no block
  • Other 1st, no block, you 2nd, block
When you find a block, your payout is worse than in solo, as you have to share your reward.
When you don't find, you're better, you get some share on the reward.
Together, it's like solo.
You can't just select one of the possibilities and omit the others. They're all equaly (im)probable. Smiley
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JoelKatz
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June 29, 2013, 08:03:01 AM
 #10782

Consider the first two shares in the round, one of them being the block.
  • You 1st, block, other 2nd, no block
  • You 1st, no block, other 2nd, block
  • Other 1st, block, you 2nd, no block
  • Other 1st, no block, you 2nd, block
When you find a block, your payout is worse than in solo, as you have to share your reward.
When you don't find, you're better, you get some share on the reward.
Together, it's like solo.
You can't just select one of the possibilities. They're all equaly (un)probable. Smiley
They're not equally probable. The probability depends on latency to the pool and mining speed. All that's necessary to prove that a pool is not hop proof is to show that there exists some time an attacker can identify where the payout is greater than the payout from solo mining. The claim is that the payout method is mathematically proven to be hop proof. That seems impossible, again, unless I misunderstand the method.

All that's needed is for my latency and mining rate to be sufficiently good that the reward I expect for my first share if I don't find a block outweighs the risk that someone else will submit a share before I find my first share. If I understand this method correctly, it cannot be mathematically proven to be hop proof because you have to make assumptions about latency and mining rate.

I am an employee of Ripple. Follow me on Twitter @JoelKatz
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Tsunamirain
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June 29, 2013, 08:36:59 AM
 #10783

Are we down. I cannot connect to server.

gourmet
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June 29, 2013, 08:41:20 AM
 #10784

They're not equally probable. The probability depends on latency to the pool and mining speed. All that's necessary to prove that a pool is not hop proof is to show that there exists some time an attacker can identify where the payout is greater than the payout from solo mining. The claim is that the payout method is mathematically proven to be hop proof. That seems impossible, again, unless I misunderstand the method.

All that's needed is for my latency and mining rate to be sufficiently good that the reward I expect for my first share if I don't find a block outweighs the risk that someone else will submit a share before I find my first share. If I understand this method correctly, it cannot be mathematically proven to be hop proof because you have to make assumptions about latency and mining rate.


Well, then try your method on the pool. And don't forget to report your success here.
Good luck!
:-)))))))))))))))
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June 29, 2013, 08:57:49 AM
 #10785

Well, then try your method on the pool. And don't forget to report your success here.
Good luck!
:-)))))))))))))))
I don't think it's exploitable under most practical conditions. You'd need to control a significant fraction of the mining power in the pool and probably also have better latency to the pool than every other miner. Nevertheless, it's a poor choice of methods given that it's so easy to construct a method that's provably hop proof. Again, assuming I understand the payout method correctly, which seems very hard to believe given that the pool claims to have a payout method mathematically proven to be hop-proof and the method as explained on their web page clearly isn't.

I am an employee of Ripple. Follow me on Twitter @JoelKatz
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Tsunamirain
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June 29, 2013, 09:05:33 AM
 #10786

Well, then try your method on the pool. And don't forget to report your success here.
Good luck!
:-)))))))))))))))
I don't think it's exploitable under most practical conditions. You'd need to control a significant fraction of the mining power in the pool and probably also have better latency to the pool than every other miner. Nevertheless, it's a poor choice of methods given that it's so easy to construct a method that's provably hop proof. Again, assuming I understand the payout method correctly, which seems very hard to believe given that the pool claims to have a payout method mathematically proven to be hop-proof and the method as explained on their web page clearly isn't.
alot of spam huh

Tsunamirain
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June 29, 2013, 09:07:30 AM
 #10787

Really guys. Is the pool down. I cannot get work with stratum.
Been down 5 1/2 hrs? What's the deal?

gourmet
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June 29, 2013, 09:14:21 AM
 #10788

alot of spam huh

Unlike other themes, at least this discussion has been about Slush's pool, about its payout scheme.
Tsunamirain
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June 29, 2013, 09:25:40 AM
 #10789

alot of spam huh

Unlike other themes, at least this discussion has been about Slush's pool, about its payout scheme.
I kid I Kid. But I'm being ignored. Is the pool down?

natbyte
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June 29, 2013, 09:36:42 AM
 #10790

Seems fine for me at the moment.
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June 29, 2013, 11:07:39 AM
 #10791

Maybe your definition of hoppable is too specific.  I successfully "hop" Slush from time to time (when I have the time to monitor things on a minute-by-minute basis), especially when the pool's luck is running under 100%.  I define hoppable as:

Pool x is hoppable if there exists a scheme that allows you to switch between mining on pool x and some other pool y in some manner that nets you  more by mining on the combination of x and y than straight mining on pool x alone would pay out if you were mining there full time.
nottm28
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June 29, 2013, 11:14:59 AM
 #10792

Really guys. Is the pool down. I cannot get work with stratum.
Been down 5 1/2 hrs? What's the deal?

Up here - check your network, bounce your miners

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Tsunamirain
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June 29, 2013, 12:21:40 PM
 #10793

I got it it was my network!  Some way the wireless hub stopped working. Didn't realize it till I tried to search web. Man. I was worried for a while there

jamesc760
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June 29, 2013, 12:55:56 PM
 #10794

Slush's over 200 Th/s right now!
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June 29, 2013, 01:22:25 PM
 #10795

Slush's over 200 Th/s right now!

Really?  You saw the pool hashrate at over 200,000.0000 Gh/s?  Amazing!  Why, that's more than the combined hashrate of the entire Bitcoin network (currently around 170 Th/s) just in one pool.  I wonder how that happened?
ibfr33k
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June 29, 2013, 01:28:09 PM
 #10796

Slush's over 200 Th/s right now!

Sorry. It was me.  I fired up my Rage 128VR farm to see what it could do and it was awesome.  Grin

I'm a noob just starting, all donations are welcome.  13DXKRXQncUnWAFtemSwNH7boRZfEfsg5a
jamesc760
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June 29, 2013, 01:53:01 PM
 #10797

noob mistake:

20.8 Th/s

 Cool
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June 29, 2013, 02:14:18 PM
 #10798

noob mistake:

20.8 Th/s

 Cool

On the bright side, our luck is running almost like there WAS 200 Th/s working.   You've got to LOVE that string of short blocks we just hit.
bspurloc
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June 29, 2013, 02:31:36 PM
 #10799

happy diff increase everyone!
21335329  woohooo!
21th/s yum!
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June 29, 2013, 04:28:17 PM
 #10800

What's the odd zero here and there - I think he meant 20TH/s Smiley

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