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Author Topic: [ANN][YAC] YACoin ongoing development  (Read 331966 times)
Beave162
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April 02, 2015, 01:05:53 AM
 #2781

Quote from: caston link=topic=206577.mfeasible.36#msg10940336 date=1427807778
Many other coins have been shown that a high PoS rate contributes to their success and attractiveness as an investment for example Maieuticoin gives 2014% PoS and holders of this coin make a nice little income just from PoS minting.

Will Yacoin developers ever consider increasing the PoS% (say as N factor rises) or is it forever going to be 5%?

Senj is a Yacoin developer... and is considering it above your post Smiley

I would say anything < 20% is certainly feasible

I wouldn't point to ANY coin now, and say "Look at its success." A lot of coins are pumped up in the beginning, and then they start a slow, downward fizzle. Besides, the market caps of all the other alt coins are not at all indicative of some kind of mainstream adoption soon.

In terms of the economics of money, anything above 5% would be a mistake in my opinion. Besides, what would be the point? I subscribe to the idea that you want inflation to match economic growth. However, you should always consider the velocity of money. And with PoS, that 5% PoS inflation is not increasing the velocity because people like me who are earning PoS are incentivized to not spend or sell those coins. Still, I think 5% is high enough. And I only say that because the destruction of fees and the fact that not everyone is staking all the time pushes that number lower.

Additionally, I'll point out the overall inflation (PoS + PoW) is currently hovering at 80%. http://explore.grokonet.com/?inflation=1

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caston
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April 03, 2015, 07:26:23 AM
 #2782

Some new Yacoin services would certainly be nice.

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alenevaa
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April 07, 2015, 06:03:41 PM
 #2783


We have reached block number 1 Million!

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senj
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April 07, 2015, 08:52:33 PM
 #2784

Here is the winning block:

Code:
Hash: 00000173fff346c1f83138ee23c15debb96eea78b63c8dea5e02da5e1a775a54
Previous Block: f3744f932ab6320fa6ce35ba654198ff2c95aa1ef9d690ba24f58455af4a6463
Next Block: 4758dfd44e76a89d437953ef187b684e45f9e058e3a559dc6cdbe584179e1fa6
Height: 1000000
Version: 3
Transaction Merkle Root: 9bb3b6cd154865c2de6ed9eed5e2c2a80c70875d16168cfd943103dc9dc9a6ab
Time: 1428428793 (2015-04-07 17:46:33)
Difficulty: 0.000 (Bits: 1e03ec8a)
Cumulative Difficulty: 239 759.604
Nonce: 70
Transactions: 1
Value out: 79.12
Average Coin Age: 186.742 days
Coin-days Destroyed: 0
Cumulative Coin-days Destroyed: 39.6314%

Raw transaction:
{
  "hash": "9bb3b6cd154865c2de6ed9eed5e2c2a80c70875d16168cfd943103dc9dc9a6ab",
  "in": [
    {
      "prev_out": {
        "hash": "0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000",
        "n": 4294967295
      },
      "raw_scriptSig": "0340420f062f503253482f04fd1724550837ff21a2000000000d2f6e6f64655374726174756d2f",
      "sequence": 0
    }
  ],
  "lock_time": 0,
  "out": [
    {
      "raw_scriptPubKey": "21021155cf11a9e494391e3bda52a0cd95629d2e3466ce8cd3e6fcd37c2ce0fcee3bac",
      "value": "79.120000"
    }
  ],
  "size": 138,
  "ver": 1,
  "vin_sz": 1,
  "vout_sz": 1
}



And we have breached 1G of blockchain+blockindex data (these numbers would be smaller without orphans):

585M    blk0001.dat
540M    blkindex.dat


EDIT: Money supply: 50M+ (50070902)

Now who is going to be user no. 1000000?



YAC: YGZRDNuey8MnN6GHVR1x7D3UY5TjDz2HCL
Beave162
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April 08, 2015, 09:48:45 AM
 #2785

senj, I'll attempt to break down your suggestions:

--Raise minimum stake amount To make minimum stake produced 1 YAC? Over time, will it not be extremely unlikely to occur anyway?
--Raise coin age growth from 3 months, which will require another security feature Could it be raised to 6 months? Is there a way to make this amount of time not so arbitrary?
--Amplifty NFactor for smaller PoS blocks(?), then allow consecutive PoS blocks Someone much smarter than can comment
--Increase PoS trust value (2-1000x (=f(coinage, NFactor))  Someone much smarter than me please comment
--Make PoW difficulty step up until PoS block is found then bring back down to lowest difficulty level Interesting. Smarter person should comment!

My overall questions is: can the points be addressed separately, or do you feel it has to all be part of the same package?

I believe with PoS, there is an inherent concern that the smaller stakeholders are at the mercy of the bigger stakeholders. However, any advantage given to the smaller stakeholders really doesn't address that concern because the bigger stakeholders can easily just create multiple inputs, wallets and play the system that way.

A few other points I'll simply highlight:
--The largest wallet at the moment is 6.4 million YAC, and it seems to have been in cold storage for over a year. http://explore.grokonet.com/?top1000=1
--Cryptsy is notorious for taking a looooong time to update their wallets with hard forks. We would also have to consider bter (scam site!)
--Any large stakeholders of a coin who try to manipulate do so at their own peril. There are a lot of options out there. Theoretically, if someone had 10% of all YACoin, there is an incentive to help YAC double in price vs trying to gain 20% of all YAC but cause the price to decrease by 80%. Similarly, if someone had enough resources to 50% attack Bitcoin, there is a much great incentive for that person to simply mine and hold or sell the Bitcoin for profit as opposed to attacking the network.
--In a future world where PoS is extremely profitable, there will surely be services where small stakeholders can pool their resources together to compete with large stakeholders, much like the mining pools, much like banks and credit unions actually! Would that necessarily be a bad thing? The network will still be secure; the PoS interest will still be limited to ~5% per year; the large 'staking pools' will definitely have an incentive to keep the price of YAC from crashing.

Those are my thoughts for now...

YaCoin: YL5kf54wPPXKsXd5T18xCaNkyUsS1DgY7z 
BitCoin: 14PFbLyUdTyxZg3V8hnvj5VXkx3dhthmDj
senj
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April 08, 2015, 12:42:03 PM
 #2786

    --Raise minimum stake amount To make minimum stake produced 1 YAC? Over time, will it not be extremely unlikely to occur anyway?

As it stands now, no. When I've written that, I did not know GetBlockTrust function does not give PoS coin with higher stake higher trust value. As it stands now, someone with modern computer could buy 1M YAC, split them to 2 coins and then leave it on. After a while his PoS blocks would flood the chain and the only thing that could be done is PoW miners to start ignoring all small PoS blocks.


    --Raise coin age growth from 3 months, which will require another security feature Could it be raised to 6 months? Is there a way to make this amount of time not so arbitrary?

I am aware this would mitigate but not solve the problem (generating a lot of small PoS blocks for small price). There is be a better way to solve this.


    --Amplifty NFactor for smaller PoS blocks(?), then allow consecutive PoS blocks
    --Increase PoS trust value (2-1000x (=f(coinage, NFactor))


I think raising small stake PoS block N factor can be done in some way.
But allowing consecutive PoS blocks is very delicate decision and this would really have to be seldom allowed. A am not sure we have the right algorithm for this now.


  -- Make PoW difficulty step up until PoS block is found then bring back down to lowest difficulty level

Perhaps this could be combined with allowing higher PoW reward for those who mine on top of PoS block.




As for the rest, I believe we should prepare Yacoin for mass adoption, without addressing critical issues after they occur. Real question is how many hard forks Cryptsy is willing to bear. Other than that there wouldn't probably be many complaints from currently (small) userbase.
I think the only way to gain credibility is to prevent any kind of misuse as soon as possible instead of relying on most people having good intentions.


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April 09, 2015, 08:05:14 PM
 #2787

I am mining for fun at https://www2.coinmine.pl but I don't understand what happened and since yesterday i cannot. The CPU looks like hashing but it doesn't (that was definitely working before) and the GPU (i am testing trying to make it work) is saying <low difficulty share of 0.00>.

any idea of what is going wrong? did something change and makes it impossible to mine at my very low rates?
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April 09, 2015, 09:50:38 PM
 #2788

Perhaps you are operating with wrong parameters.

-- CPU corei7 with 4 threads
https://github.com/Thirtybird/cpuminer/releases

Code:
cd C:\minerd-yacoin_stratum_x64_2_4_0
minerd-x64-corei7.exe -a scrypt-jane -t 4 -o stratum+tcp://yac.coinmine.pl:9088 -u myusername.myworker1 -p mypassword

-- GPU Radeon R7 240 4GB
https://github.com/Thirtybird/YACMiner/releases

Code:
cd C:\yacminer-3.5.0-yac2-x86
setx GPU_MAX_ALLOC_PERCENT 100
setx GPU_USE_SYNC_OBJECTS 1
yacminer --scrypt-chacha --lookup-gap 6 -R 1280 -B 3560 -o stratum+tcp://yac.coinmine.pl:9088 -u myusername.myworker2 -p mypassword




YAC: YGZRDNuey8MnN6GHVR1x7D3UY5TjDz2HCL
thdim
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April 09, 2015, 10:35:38 PM
 #2789

Perhaps you are operating with wrong parameters.

-- CPU corei7 with 4 threads
https://github.com/Thirtybird/cpuminer/releases

Code:
cd C:\minerd-yacoin_stratum_x64_2_4_0
minerd-x64-corei7.exe -a scrypt-jane -t 4 -o stratum+tcp://yac.coinmine.pl:9088 -u myusername.myworker1 -p mypassword

-- GPU Radeon R7 240 4GB
https://github.com/Thirtybird/YACMiner/releases

Code:
cd C:\yacminer-3.5.0-yac2-x86
setx GPU_MAX_ALLOC_PERCENT 100
setx GPU_USE_SYNC_OBJECTS 1
yacminer --scrypt-chacha --lookup-gap 6 -R 1280 -B 3560 -o stratum+tcp://yac.coinmine.pl:9088 -u myusername.myworker2 -p mypassword


Thanks for answering senj,

this is my settings for my i5 (i tolled you, it's an amateur mining Tongue),

Code:
minerd-x64-avx-i -a scrypt-jane -t 4 --url stratum+tcp://yac.coinmine.pl:9088 -u thdim.office -p xxx

how can the exact code works 2 days ago and now don't?

and this is my GPU

Code:
setx GPU_MAX_ALLOC_PERCENT 100
setx GPU_USE_SYNC_OBJECTS 1
yacminer --scrypt-chacha -o stratum+tcp://yac.coinmine.pl:9088 -u thdim.1 -p xxx -I 9 --lookup-gap 2

it seems like working and hashing with 314.0 h/s but nothing happens except "Stratum from pool 0 detected new block" every couples of minutes. The message <low difficulty share of 0.00> i discover it by trying to make it work with sgminer_v5.1_2015-03-09 (i don't have any idea if that is even compatible miner too be honest).
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April 10, 2015, 09:53:15 PM
 #2790

Does anyone know what happened with http://forum.yacoin.org ?

YAC: YGZRDNuey8MnN6GHVR1x7D3UY5TjDz2HCL
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April 12, 2015, 12:24:04 PM
 #2791

oh it's down? that's not good... we still have the alternate forum but we should try to get the main one back up

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Joe_Bauers
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April 13, 2015, 02:51:20 PM
 #2792

I'm not sure who maintains that one. Maybe sahtor?
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April 16, 2015, 01:49:19 PM
 #2793

When priced at 100$, 1$ would get destroyed with each transaction due hardcoded 0.01 yac transaction fee. Who would transact in amounts smaller than 10$ if one tenth would get destroyed with each transaction? I believe this rule in a way serves as limitation for maximum future price. My guess is that it could hardly get above 25$ per yac (25 cents destroyed with each transaction) and more reasonable target value could be between 0.1 and 10$.
I am aware people were paying high transaction fees when btc was at it's high, but that amount did not get destroyed.

Priced at 0.1$ YACoin would now have 5$ million market capitalization. Compare that to current Litecoin market cap (62$M) you can see how small "the push" must be to get us there.

And all that presuming dollar and other fiat money would preserve it's value:)

Hello Senj,

What about setting a min-max range for the Tx fee?  Minimum, say in terms of the minimum YAC unit, 0.000001YAC (or 0.0001CENT), a Satoshi or whatever we choose to call that minimum, say 100 Satoshis.  And some maximum, or a percentage of the Tx amount, of TX byte count size or whatever, whichever is smaller.   Doesn't seem hard to do.

Ron
                          

BTC: 1DPvP6WoZzaNQ9Nxzd64hjYad1kyQzTTbx YAC: Y3ZggXDvnRJaRwtVGyGJwt6DMLN3EPQpQf 
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senj
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April 16, 2015, 06:01:46 PM
 #2794

...
What about setting a min-max range for the Tx fee?  Minimum, say in terms of the minimum YAC unit, 0.000001YAC (or 0.00001CENT), a Satoshi or whatever we choose to call that minimum, say 100 Satoshis.  And some maximum, or a percentage of the Tx amount, of TX byte count size or whatever, whichever is smaller.   Doesn't seem hard to do.                          

Tx fee's function is to prevent blockchain bloat/spam attacks. Lowering it would mean removing this protection.

The only way it seems sensible to have it dynamic (and less than 0.01) is to somehow tie it to block reward.
More miners, consequently higher difficulty and lower reward would indicate possible higher price. In that case it would make sense to lower mandatory tx fee.

As it is now, at such low price, tx fee could even be 0.1 yac.
I admit it is challenging to estimate price from difficulty, especially considering N factor.
Besides, I think tx fee is perhaps even more an economical than security issue. And we've got enough of those to fix.





YAC: YGZRDNuey8MnN6GHVR1x7D3UY5TjDz2HCL
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April 23, 2015, 08:08:11 PM
 #2795

I'm not sure who maintains that one. Maybe sahtor?

Haven't heard any updates from anyone. I think the site was owned by someone that "moved on to other things" so we can either do a new site: I can add one on Yacoin hosting, designate Grokos site as the "new official forum" or do something else.
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April 30, 2015, 01:07:11 PM
 #2796

...
What about setting a min-max range for the Tx fee?  Minimum, say in terms of the minimum YAC unit, 0.000001YAC (or 0.00001CENT), a Satoshi or whatever we choose to call that minimum, say 100 Satoshis.  And some maximum, or a percentage of the Tx amount, of TX byte count size or whatever, whichever is smaller.   Doesn't seem hard to do.                         

Tx fee's function is to prevent blockchain bloat/spam attacks. Lowering it would mean removing this protection.

The only way it seems sensible to have it dynamic (and less than 0.01) is to somehow tie it to block reward.
More miners, consequently higher difficulty and lower reward would indicate possible higher price. In that case it would make sense to lower mandatory tx fee.


As it is now, at such low price, tx fee could even be 0.1 yac.
I admit it is challenging to estimate price from difficulty, especially considering N factor.
Besides, I think tx fee is perhaps even more an economical than security issue. And we've got enough of those to fix.


The highlighted part above needs to be addressed. Simply put, a static, minimum transaction fee of 0.01 is VERY limiting to the growth of the coin. Of course, the price per YAC has to be 1,000,000 fold above the current price for the fees to be significant, but the fact that there is that limitation suppresses the coin well before reaching that point.

YaCoin: YL5kf54wPPXKsXd5T18xCaNkyUsS1DgY7z 
BitCoin: 14PFbLyUdTyxZg3V8hnvj5VXkx3dhthmDj
Joe_Bauers
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April 30, 2015, 01:33:32 PM
 #2797

...
What about setting a min-max range for the Tx fee?  Minimum, say in terms of the minimum YAC unit, 0.000001YAC (or 0.00001CENT), a Satoshi or whatever we choose to call that minimum, say 100 Satoshis.  And some maximum, or a percentage of the Tx amount, of TX byte count size or whatever, whichever is smaller.   Doesn't seem hard to do.                         

Tx fee's function is to prevent blockchain bloat/spam attacks. Lowering it would mean removing this protection.

The only way it seems sensible to have it dynamic (and less than 0.01) is to somehow tie it to block reward.
More miners, consequently higher difficulty and lower reward would indicate possible higher price. In that case it would make sense to lower mandatory tx fee.


As it is now, at such low price, tx fee could even be 0.1 yac.
I admit it is challenging to estimate price from difficulty, especially considering N factor.
Besides, I think tx fee is perhaps even more an economical than security issue. And we've got enough of those to fix.


The highlighted part above needs to be addressed. Simply put, a static, minimum transaction fee of 0.01 is VERY limiting to the growth of the coin. Of course, the price per YAC has to be 1,000,000 fold above the current price for the fees to be significant, but the fact that there is that limitation suppresses the coin well before reaching that point.

MIN_TX_FEE is set to CENT/10 in testing.

When we get some of the other stuff that senj has mentioned worked out, that is what we'll go with for 0.4.5
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May 02, 2015, 06:39:08 PM
 #2798

I'm not sure who maintains that one. Maybe sahtor?

Haven't heard any updates from anyone. I think the site was owned by someone that "moved on to other things" so we can either do a new site: I can add one on Yacoin hosting, designate Grokos site as the "new official forum" or do something else.

https://forum.yacoin.org/ is working again. It needed a full replacement unpacking of smf files. The error logs were saying something related to socket permissions and stuff thats not fun to fix. The installation is hopefully working properly and safely.
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May 02, 2015, 06:47:36 PM
 #2799

did pocopoco create yacoin or windmaster?
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May 04, 2015, 03:16:49 PM
 #2800

did pocopoco create yacoin or windmaster?

pocopoco.
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