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Author Topic: [ANN][YAC] YACoin ongoing development  (Read 323111 times)
Beave162
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August 24, 2014, 10:12:50 AM
 #2441

Incidentally only 30k YACs are mined everyday now, down from 100k/day when diff hovered around 0.004 a while back. I notice that YAC price has stablized in the period. There was even some increase in the last few days. This agrees with my conclusion that less new coin mined per day will mean less selling pressure, which in turn suggests that most YACs goes to mine-and-sell miners that don't have a long term interest in YAC.

You need to stop with this nonsense. I noticed that the amount of YAC being sold for a time was equal to the amount that one big miner was obtaining per day. Bad right? You want to change how much he could obtain, yea? It will reduce selling pressure and YAC will HAVE to go up, right? WRONG. Go check out UltraCoin. The CURRENT price may support your argument, but.not.future.prices. Alas, I don't think you will EVER understand even if 10 coins try that kind of manipulation and FAIL. If you have a lot of money on the sidelines waiting to invest in YAC, you should just wait until it is at 10 satoshis to buy TONS since you have predicted that. In fact, you can put the buy order now. If you aren't able or willing to pour money into YAC, it seems kind of silly to give much credence to your suggestion right? I mean you want buy pressure too--one would assume.

You do make one point. The difficulty attack is worrisome, but of course, if YAC was very popular and many more people mined it, the difficulty wouldn't be so much of an issue. I'm not extremely familiar with the Kimoto Gravity Well, but if that fixes the difficulty problem, I vote it is worth looking into.

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Beave162
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August 24, 2014, 10:21:56 AM
 #2442

Incidentally only 30k YACs are mined everyday now, down from 100k/day when diff hovered around 0.004 a while back. I notice that YAC price has stablized in the period. There was even some increase in the last few days. This agrees with my conclusion that less new coin mined per day will mean less selling pressure, which in turn suggests that most YACs goes to mine-and-sell miners that don't have a long term interest in YAC.

Here is a great explanation:

Gentlemen. Coin generation rate means nothing. Do you understand initial pricing on exchanges?

2,880,000 MYR per day x 0.00000500 MYR/BTC = 14.4BTC buy support to maintain 500 MYR assuming every miner dumps every day.

14.4BTC buy support. That's it. You can start to worry when the daily Mintpal volume approaches this number.

How do you increase the value of a coin? You give people reasons to inject their BTC in it. You don't artificially lower the coin generation rate. The innovation alone in this coin gave me a reason to inject my BTC into it on Poloniex. Now, we are doing as much as possible to build projects around Myriad so people feel confident acquiring MYR at a healthy rate.

If you artificially lower the coin generation rate, the price may "rise" initially to a proportional level (which is morally objectionable to even do in the first place), but then you still need the same number of BTC to sustain it at that level. The artificial price rise is equivalent to a pump and offers nothing to the coin except unfair advantage to everyone mining this coin in its early days.

If you invested 1BTC into Litecoin and 1BTC into Myriadcoin, you would need both to increase 100% to get 2BTC despite their relative price difference against BTC. LTC would need to jump from 0.025 LTC/BTC to 0.05 LTC/BTC while MYR would need to jump from 0.00000575 MYR/BTC to 0.00001050 MYR/BTC. Using this logic, I would actually argue that LTC's coin creation rate is way too high because we've only seen it hit 0.05 LTC/BTC once on a glorious pump. There clearly is not enough buy demand to sustain LTC anywhere above 0.03BTC

Argument over.

Please tell me you are done now. It would potentially be harmful to even SUGGEST completely changing generation rates/inflation at this point. YAC is small enough right now it probably doesn't matter--thankfully, I guess?

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mhps
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August 24, 2014, 02:44:24 PM
 #2443

Incidentally only 30k YACs are mined everyday now, down from 100k/day when diff hovered around 0.004 a while back. I notice that YAC price has stablized in the period. There was even some increase in the last few days. This agrees with my conclusion that less new coin mined per day will mean less selling pressure, which in turn suggests that most YACs goes to mine-and-sell miners that don't have a long term interest in YAC.

You need to stop with this nonsense. I noticed that the amount of YAC being sold for a time was equal to the amount that one big miner was obtaining per day. Bad right? You want to change how much he could obtain, yea? It will reduce selling pressure and YAC will HAVE to go up, right? WRONG. Go check out UltraCoin.

My argument in the last post is to show support evidence for technical conclusion. If you don't agree with it, maybe you can explain why I have to check UltraCoin while no one here could tell me why 100% inflation, with a 200% maximum, is nonsense for a cryptoCURRENCY?

Quote
The CURRENT price may support your argument, but.not.future.prices. Alas, I don't think you will EVER understand even if 10 coins try that kind of manipulation and FAIL. If you have a lot of money on the sidelines waiting to invest in YAC, you should just wait until it is at 10 satoshis to buy TONS since you have predicted that. In fact, you can put the buy order now. If you aren't able or willing to pour money into YAC, it seems kind of silly to give much credence to your suggestion right? I mean you want buy pressure too--one would assume.

All you have is a speculator's tactic and greed. I am not against speculation per se. But not all in the community are here to play that game.

Here is a great explanation:

How do you increase the value of a coin? You give people reasons to inject their BTC in it. You don't artificially lower the coin generation rate. The innovation alone in this coin gave me a reason to inject my BTC into it on Poloniex. Now, we are doing as much as possible to build projects around Myriad so people feel confident acquiring MYR at a healthy rate.

Did you actually think when you read the above? What gives people reason to keep inject fund into YAC at a healthy rate? Because they know their fund will be diluted at a highly unhealthy rate of 50% a year?

Quote
Please tell me you are done now. It would potentially be harmful to even SUGGEST completely changing generation rates/inflation at this point. YAC is small enough right now it probably doesn't matter--thankfully, I guess?

I am not done. Not until the community put on Yacoin.net a banner saying "This is a highly inflatory cryptocurrency in the next 30 years. And we like it." Why worrying something potentially harmful when current stake holders are being solidly harmed (and any suture stake holders in the next few decades)?

You are right that now is a good time to end this insanity, to reduce maximum inflation rate, for example to 50% pa by capping the block reward to 25.

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August 24, 2014, 05:26:24 PM
 #2444

If everything went EXACTLY how you ASSUME, you would have to agree that this scenario would occur if you CAP POW REWARD TO 25...
The price would go up 4-FOLD! 0.000004 to 0.000016 BTC!!! Marketcap from $60k to $240k!! YAC would be #67 in the rankings as of now. But now YAC will have the same problem as before because if you freaking listened, you would see we would understand it would need the SAME amount of buying pressure (in BTC) as before and the same people who are mining and dumping will continue to be mining and dumping. Understand?

100% inflation rate? What are you talking about? Multiple people have tried to explain this basic concept to you, and you obviously don't understand. The amount of YAC is what 27 million? So you are saying that in one year, there will be 54 million YAC? And then in another year there will be 108 million YAC? The supply is going to double every year? That is what 100% inflation means. Can you understand what 50% inflation means? What exactly do you want? Make block reward 0 and the inflation rate could be 5% (it won't though as we know 6.4 million YAC are not being staked at all).

You don't even have YAC in your signature line. You want YAC to be briefly pumped, so you can dump at a slightly higher price? I actually hope that is your motivation as opposed to plain stupidity.

YaCoin: YL5kf54wPPXKsXd5T18xCaNkyUsS1DgY7z 
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Joe_Bauers
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August 25, 2014, 01:50:24 PM
 #2445

Well, I think Beave162 and mhps have certainly made their position clear. Anyone else care to weigh in on this?
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August 25, 2014, 03:06:06 PM
 #2446

Well, I think Beave162 and mhps have certainly made their position clear. Anyone else care to weigh in on this?

I have to agree with Beave - I don't personally think changing the block reward is going to 'fix' anything.  IMOP its going to make it look like YAC favored the early adapters and generate an unnecessary hardfork.  Again, IMOP, the block reward doesn't really matter - what matters is the number of people that value the coin vs the number of people who dump.

My vote is the leave YAC the way it is - a well though-out coin, I don't think it needs to be changed in anyway. Smiley

 

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August 25, 2014, 03:42:15 PM
 #2447

In short: If you lower PoW reward , I will be forced to reverse my strategy and sell all of my YAC. And never buy nor mine one again.

But it would make me very happy if these two get into the hard fork:

- Critical patch for chaintrust calculation
- INCREASE of PoW reward after PoS blocks

My position is that those two would eliminate most of selling pressure in the long run Smiley

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August 25, 2014, 04:16:24 PM
 #2448

I have to agree with Beave - I don't personally think changing the block reward is going to 'fix' anything.  IMOP its going to make it look like YAC favored the early adapters and generate an unnecessary hardfork.  Again, IMOP, the block reward doesn't really matter - what matters is the number of people that value the coin vs the number of people who dump.

Having watched what happened with Ultracoin who did exactly what is being suggested (lowering the block reward) and watching the price rise - then people who held a bunch dumped at the new inflated price.  This type of change, even with the best intentions, can easily be perceived as a way to let people sell out coins they've been holding.


YACMiner: https://github.com/Thirtybird/YACMiner  N-Factor information : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aj3vcsuY-JFNdC1ITWJrSG9VeWp6QXppbVgxcm0tbGc&usp=drive_web#gid=0
BTC: 183eSsaxG9y6m2ZhrDhHueoKnZWmbm6jfC  YAC: Y4FKiwKKYGQzcqn3M3u6mJoded6ri1UWHa
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August 26, 2014, 05:46:23 AM
 #2449

If everything went EXACTLY how you ASSUME, you would have to agree that this scenario would occur if you CAP POW REWARD TO 25...
The price would go up 4-FOLD! 0.000004 to 0.000016 BTC!!! Marketcap from $60k to $240k!! YAC would be #67 in the rankings as of now. But now YAC will have the same problem as before because if you freaking listened, you would see we would understand it would need the SAME amount of buying pressure (in BTC) as before and the same people who are mining and dumping will continue to be mining and dumping. Understand?

Regardless of how price act inflation pressure will do its slow and steady work to water down the value of exsiting coinbase. Reduced block reward will reduce financial interest of mining and dumping.

Quote
100% inflation rate? What are you talking about? Multiple people have tried to explain this basic concept to you, and you obviously don't understand. The amount of YAC is what 27 million? So you are saying that in one year, there will be 54 million YAC? And then in another year there will be 108 million YAC? The supply is going to double every year? That is what 100% inflation means. Can you understand what 50% inflation means? What exactly do you want? Make block reward 0 and the inflation rate could be 5% (it won't though as we know 6.4 million YAC are not being staked at all).

You didn't even read what was written.  Here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=206577.msg8115111#msg8115111 I calculated that inflation was 118% pa now (then). Here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=206577.msg8196398#msg8196398 Ii wrote at 100% pa inflation, inflation will go down as coinbase increase but it will take 30 years to reach down to POS rate.

Quote
You don't even have YAC in your signature line. You want YAC to be briefly pumped, so you can dump at a slightly higher price? I actually hope that is your motivation as opposed to plain stupidity.

YAC will not be in my long term keep-list until I see the community have a rational  long term approach to YAC development.

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August 26, 2014, 06:59:00 AM
 #2450

I have to agree with Beave - I don't personally think changing the block reward is going to 'fix' anything.  IMOP its going to make it look like YAC favored the early adapters and generate an unnecessary hardfork.  Again, IMOP, the block reward doesn't really matter - what matters is the number of people that value the coin vs the number of people who dump.

Having watched what happened with Ultracoin who did exactly what is being suggested (lowering the block reward) and watching the price rise - then people who held a bunch dumped at the new inflated price.  This type of change, even with the best intentions, can easily be perceived as a way to let people sell out coins they've been holding.


Chances are those people will dump as the price goes up for any reason.  The dumper might kill the first wave of price increase, they will run out of ammo when the next wave comes -- unless they buy back when the price is low, which will create upward pressure for coin owners if the miner-dumpers are not there to sell them a huge amount of cheap coins. Currently a top miner can mine more than 1 million YACs a month, an amount that would have been enough to put off any price run in YAC's history.

For anyone who has doubt in the effect of inflation on prices, here is another piece of evidence: Ultracoin generates 30 coins per minute, and its price stayed at 2000-1000 satoshis in the last two months. YAC currently generate 50 - 60 / min and hovers around 600 satoshis in the period. I think it shows the effect of inflation rate on miner-dumper's coin price when there is no big event in the cryptoworld.

Removing the fuel from the fire is the right thing to do.   If capping at 25 at once is too radical, taking a phased approach is possible, too. The "25" means maximum 50% pa inflation (ahem, against current coinbase, Beave). If YAC gradually reduces the cap to BTC's inflation rate in a few years it would sound good.


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Beave162
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August 26, 2014, 09:54:08 PM
 #2451

In short: If you lower PoW reward , I will be forced to reverse my strategy and sell all of my YAC. And never buy nor mine one again.

But it would make me very happy if these two get into the hard fork:

- Critical patch for chaintrust calculation
- INCREASE of PoW reward after PoS blocks

My position is that those two would eliminate most of selling pressure in the long run Smiley


I will second that. I will sell all of my YAC (more than what mhps has I promise you) if a boneheaded decision like changing block reward gains any traction. I am skittish even now just that this idiotic idea is slightly entertained. The guy calling for it is not even interested in YAC long term. If he buys a bunch (I guarantee you he wouldn't pour much capital even if he had it), then great, you will have an even smaller handful of people holding YAC and very, very little chance someone will want to buy into such manipulation.

mhps, dear god you must stop. Go read a book. Bitcoin inflation rate?  IT IS FREAKING 0 at 21 million bitcoins. You will never, ever, ever comprehend this concept. You are citing current 'inflation'. Stop it. Bitcoin is going through an adoption phase. The altcoins are going through an adoption phase. The longterm inflation rate is the only thing that matters. Everything else is just distribution of coins, adoption, speculation.

If anyone interested in obtaining YAC but have a THEORY that mining and dumping is the main factor keeping the price down, mine YAC and hold it!... less coins will go to anyone mining and dumping, the difficulty will increase, and less coins will be distributed each block. Orrrrr pick an entry point where even at that price mining and dumping won't create enough selling pressure to budge the price lower as YAC is adopted as an actual currency and not ranked 100+ of cryptocurrencies. For example, I could put an order for 1 btc at like 5 satoshis and buy all of the YAC that could be mined and dumped in an entire year! Morons like mhps will still blame, and want to lower, block reward at that point.

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August 27, 2014, 12:55:28 AM
 #2452

I am skittish even now just that this idiotic idea is slightly entertained.

I'm surprised this is still being discussed as well...

Changing the block reward won't have 'any effect' on the market value of the coin.  Four coins worth 100 satoshi or one YAC worth 400, doesn't change the scope, or the market value, or adoption/acceptation of the coin.

However, chaining the block reward 'because the price is low' won't be viewed lightly by others.

 

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August 27, 2014, 05:53:16 AM
 #2453

Hello, is there some with R9 280x
Can you share a bat file and what speed you have.
How many GB of RAM should have 1 RIG.

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August 27, 2014, 11:00:06 AM
 #2454

The longterm inflation rate is the only thing that matters.

You seriously think YAC will be around in 30 years when the inflation is on par with that of POS? I do miss the APPLE ][ I played with in mid 1980s.

Quote
Morons like mhps will still blame, and want to lower, block reward at that point.

Be civil.

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August 27, 2014, 11:03:12 AM
 #2455

However, chaining the block reward 'because the price is low' won't be viewed lightly by others.

How about chaining the block reward 'because the inflation is high' ?

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August 27, 2014, 05:18:37 PM
 #2456

Hello, is there some with R9 280x
Can you share a bat file and what speed you have.
How many GB of RAM should have 1 RIG.

Thirtybird is the GPU guru.  He made a site to help write config files/settings.  I find it very useful.  http://www.ultracoin.net/configgen_raw.html

However, chaining the block reward 'because the price is low' won't be viewed lightly by others.

How about chaining the block reward 'because the inflation is high' ?

YAC is only 15 months only and bitcoin is only 5 years old.  'Inflation' rates are going to be very high for all coins in the beginning. 

What's the difference if there are 21 million bitcoin or 2.1 million bitcoin?  The value will adjust accordingly.

Hardforks are usually create a lot of uncertainly and confusion.  IMOP they are best avoided when possible.

 

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August 27, 2014, 05:21:06 PM
 #2457

The longterm inflation rate is the only thing that matters.

You seriously think YAC will be around in 30 years when the inflation is on par with that of POS? I do miss the APPLE ][ I played with in mid 1980s.


So you want POW coin generation rate to equal POS coin generation rate? Is that your new theory you just came up with? And 30 years really? Please educate yourself, become somewhat successful, obtain capital, and then come back, then maybe we can have an intelligent conversation.

And to answer your question if I believe YAC will be around in another 30 years... yes I do. I really do.

YaCoin: YL5kf54wPPXKsXd5T18xCaNkyUsS1DgY7z 
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August 27, 2014, 10:08:31 PM
 #2458

Hello, is there some with R9 280x
Can you share a bat file and what speed you have.
How many GB of RAM should have 1 RIG.

Thirtybird is the GPU guru.  He made a site to help write config files/settings.  I find it very useful.  http://www.ultracoin.net/configgen_raw.html





Thank

Thank the man who has made his work for this great work.
Thanks again

mhps
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August 28, 2014, 05:37:29 AM
 #2459

The longterm inflation rate is the only thing that matters.

You seriously think YAC will be around in 30 years when the inflation is on par with that of POS? I do miss the APPLE ][ I played with in mid 1980s.


So you want POW coin generation rate to equal POS coin generation rate? Is that your new theory you just came up with? And 30 years really?

Stop making baseless accusation because you don't read or choose to forget. It was you who used POS as a inflation yard stick here, and said in the same post that "If block reward was a constant 100 forever, PoW inflation rate would decrease over time because the ratio gets smaller and smaller as coins in existence increases". As a result I calculated in the follow up post that it will take at least 30 years to do that at current high coin generation rate, to help you to understant it better.

Quote
And to answer your question if I believe YAC will be around in another 30 years... yes I do. I really do.

Good to have faith. Your YACs today will be worth 10% by then (half of it due to POS) however, measured by percentage of coinbase (see my post in above link).

BTC 1HxvAEC4nj37hyenz9DwsyrMMnkwzpbzno PPC PU6zS8RRBWP2UxhuRFengGsu8n4tEYB5xV XPM AJAgBpPjGQoL38mrtW91dVqhbMHqu25vfG
Beave162
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August 28, 2014, 07:15:10 AM
 #2460

As a result I calculated in the follow up post that it will take at least 30 years to do that at current high coin generation rate, to help you to understant it better.

30 years to do what? PoW coin generation equal POS coin generation? I didn't say that, but why would that matter anyway? BTW I love how you are referencing a post a while back when I didn't think you were just a child wanting attention.


Good to have faith. Your YACs today will be worth 10% by then (half of it due to POS) however, measured by percentage of coinbase (see my post in above link).

For anyone else who might also have this concept dreadfully confused...

If you want to say that 'inflation' (new money created), steals value from the money already in existence, then you have to ASSUME EVERYTHING ANYTHING EVER is a CONSTANT. Even if you make such a mindless approach, then still the total marketcap would be a constant, which is obviously proven otherwise.

As an example, the way PoS is supposed to work (originally with PeerCoin) is that it doesn't decrease the price as there is a huge incentive to hoard which lowers the money velocity--generally the opposite with PoW, but there are other factors.

Adoption, adoption, adoption. Inflation is a term for MONEY, and YACoin needs to become accepted as such. I think the way yacoins are being distributed in this adoption phase is new and interesting and different, which a coin surely HAS to be in order to potentially ever surpass bitcoin or government fiat. It would be interesting though to see a coin that had constant PoW RATE--block reward as a percentage of coins already in existence...

Changing block rewards is really just a question for one creating a new coin. Manipulating money supply of an existing coin is mind-boggling hypocritical for cryptocurrency. It is also absurd in effectiveness. It would be like banging your head against a wall to get rid of a headache.

YaCoin: YL5kf54wPPXKsXd5T18xCaNkyUsS1DgY7z 
BitCoin: 14PFbLyUdTyxZg3V8hnvj5VXkx3dhthmDj
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