[DVC]DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated

[Papacrusher]

wow ! so devcoin would only need to go to a dollar and most of you guys on the list would be millionares.

I can tell you very honestly that I do not want Devcoin to be $1 tomorrow. I want it to be whatever its going to be worth on the basis of a thriving and large developer user base. I think the latter will take at least an additional 3 years of hard work while the coin stabilizes.

I agree.  I envision this being the standard for ethically based endeavors to emulate.  I hope for devcoin and devtome to be industry stalwarts that stand the test of time, for it to be something my daughter, even her daughter, could benefit from as society reaps the benefits of open source projects.  Anyone who was scared of hard work would have never became a writer or programmer in the first place 

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[Hunterbunter]

It doesn't have to work the way that I'm describing here; I just believe that if it does, devcoins and http://devtome.com in particular will become much more valuable much more quickly. It's a more capitalist way of doing things.

There can be little argument that Capitalism is competition by definition, while Open Source is cooperation by definition. It is becoming more obvious the Bounty System is being shaped by the Capitalist mindset not the Open Source cooperative one.

I respectfully disagree. Capitalism is not the opposite of cooperation, and you're mixing metaphors. Capitalism is an economic process where the risk and reward are assumed by the few, with decisions made by everyone. Modern communism (which I think you were referring to) is an economic process where the risk and reward are assumed by everyone, but decisions made by few. Both systems work, except communist economies are slower to move, because the decisions on whether to take risks are centralized, and bad decisions affect everyone. In a capital system, every programmer makes their own decision whether to attempt the effort or not, and they assume all risk of failure...in other words, it sucks more for them if they don't "win". This is why capitalist economies perform faster than communist ones - risk of failure is extremely motivating, and people have the freedom to choose not to take it. Communism allows incompetence to fester, but will still work if the cost of failure is nil for everyone. The point behind devcoin is to progress open source, and both will do it, but one will be faster until its not, in which case, stop using it then.

Regarding code, applying capitalistic risk to the bounty system does not close the source, and if open source is cooperative as you say, how can it then be less cooperative? Capitalism vs Modern Communism is about who assumes the risk of failure.

The Bounty System, if what is being sold here on this thread is true, needs to me more programmer centric rather than end user centric.

Let's flip things on it's head with an example approach...

Say the programmer codes a program and then posts it to the project/Bounty site to be voted on to see if it should be added to that cycle's shares. Perhaps it could remain on the list to be voted upon until it receives enough votes to take it off the list. If it does not get enough votes it does not receive any shares and if it does get enough votes it does.

It could also be voted as to how many shares it should get. Then it is not capitalist driven but coder driven. The same Open Source will make it to the market regardless of it getting a share split or not. There is no less risk to the programmer than the Bounty System's present form in my opinion.

If Capitalists, that cannot program, want a program then they can dig into their DevCoin Wallets and pay programmers to do it. Of course all such requests would be released to Open Source because that is the whole concept behind DevCoins right?

That would be an example of flipping the Bounty System on it's head and putting it in the hands of Open Source programmers and out of the hands of Capitalists who can't program.

Voting only really works if people have something to lose. If it's arbitrary voting by everyday users, for nothing but a random click, it doesn't create an accurate representation of what people actually want. Valve tried this with their Greenlight system, and have recognized what a horrible failure it was in reducing their workload, or getting better games out. If they had made people pay to vote for greenlight games, they'd have a much more realistic demand plot, because people would only vote for things they actually cared about. If the bounty system you talk about makes people contribute to the bounty as their vote, then that would work fine...but then basically you've got capitalists who are directing open source programmers...

Also, project managers are valuable, and not all programmers would make good ones.

[georgem]

Voting only really works if people have something to lose. If it's arbitrary voting by everyday users, for nothing but a random click, it doesn't create an accurate representation of what people actually want. Valve tried this with their Greenlight system, and have recognized what a horrible failure it was in reducing their workload, or getting better games out. If they had made people pay to vote for greenlight games, they'd have a much more realistic demand plot, because people would only vote for things they actually cared about. If the bounty system you talk about makes people contribute to the bounty as their vote, then that would work fine...but then basically you've got capitalists who are directing open source programmers...

Also, project managers are valuable, and not all programmers would make good ones.

Exactly!

If something doesn't cost anything or has no repercussions at all, we end up with spam mail and anonymous trolls behaving like they never would in real life.

Having exposure is key to empathic socioeconomic behaviour.

[markm]

Nova, Bitcoin, and being derived from that also Devcoin, is MIT or BSD license not GNU copyleft.

So a lot of folks hereabouts come from the side of Open Source where it is fine and dandy for corporations to hold back code, they are free to use the Bitcoin - and Devcoin - code in their own proprietary projects, even release binaries without their modified source and so on.

Satoshi evidently chose that approach in order to maximise acceptance by capitalists / capitalism, if he had made his code GNU possibly a whole lot of its major adopters would have had to first re-write equivalent functionality from scratch precisely because they have no intention of releasing their code.

I believe that Unthinkingbit did not / does not restrict the Decoin project's concept of Open Source to only the somewhat infectious GNU license, BSD and MIT also are acceptable and I think things like Perl's creative license, the Apache license and so on.

So do expect a lot of folk are not going to use GNU license and of those some or many might fully intend to go on to make their own proprietary services based on their own improvements of what they initially released as "Open Source".

You might notice for example that so far there are no good working exchanges, Ripple gateways etc etc etc in open source; the policy seems usually to be to release a broken sketchy version as open source but keep the real thing that actually works proprietary. (Which is kind of what the GNU Affero (sp?) license aims to try to put a stop to.)

I think to a lot of people / companies hereabouts "Open Source" is mostly just a marketing slogan, they release some broken stuff to get some marketing bonus from the use of such terms/slogans but are all about profit thus have no intention of actually enabling competition / competitors by giving out their real working robust production code.

-MarkM-

[ranlo]

As a heads-up for anyone who is interested, the Rapidballs lottery win (with a 50 DVC ticket) is up to 445,075 DVC.

[georgem]

I think to a lot of people / companies hereabouts "Open Source" is mostly just a marketing slogan, they release some broken stuff to get some marketing bonus from the use of such terms/slogans but are all about profit thus have no intention of actually enabling competition / competitors by giving out their real working robust production code.

Many companies often jump on the most popular bandwagon, they "go green" (look at bp's logo) or "open source" or "accept bitcoin" (virgin galactic) etc..

it's like free publicity for them.

[notabot]

Indeed that's what it's from. Notabot decided to not hold back 5 million as I recommended, he sent all his 20 million devcoins. I then sent it in turn in proportion to the current account 31 file. The payments are currently at:
https://raw.github.com/Unthinkingbit/charity/master/payment.csv

but that file changes once in a while so it's not a permanent record. The block record is permanent, and the transactions are in the following blocks:
http://darkgamex.ch:2751/block/d9ff14adbc1f8cf78e7f4c8690aa215f2bf1fb53bbb7f04dfea13c82c0821941
http://darkgamex.ch:2751/block/6f8c79db2d47849aae2fb0839d03ea0b45a6cca9e292ac52c1b99c960536f2c3
http://darkgamex.ch:2751/block/6376ded227406452c84b4218814c53522f3a1d4b70e0f5c25f2723840509f250

The next and last payment will be at the end of this payment round, about Jan 28, 2014.

Thank you Unthinkingbit for the quick turnaround on those coins. I will be making another large payment around January 28+- as Unthinkingbit stated above. However that is not the end of my restitution. I will also, be sending 1/3 of my devcoin income to the end of Round 42 (minimum) or until the full amount has been repaid. I have gone beyond the terms that Unthinkingbit proposed as it is required IMO and also sends a strong message to others.

I haven't posted much here in the last month, except to help some newcomers, as I've wanted the first trench to be repaid first. Looking at my post count, those that have been around here awhile will notice that it is considerably reduced. I deleted a lot of my previous posts as I was embarrassed, childish I know, but I am still here  and I am still active in the background.

I do have some good news and I also have a PR task, but I will post those separately so messages don't get mixed. Thank you.   

[notabot]

I would like anyone who is willing to please email media@campbx.com and support@coin.mx (only once) to request that they consider adding devcoin to their exchange.

You can use a message similar to the example below. Please do not copy this, create your own message, the same message just makes it spam.

Hello,

I love your website but am wondering if you have any plans to expand
into other coins in the future?

In particular I'm interested in coins that have unique qualities such as Devcoin (DVC).

I'm a huge supporter of is Devcoin, as it's merge mined
with Bitcoin, not using any additional mining power, and it actually
sends 90% of the mining reward to recipients of Open Source software and
Creative Commons Licensed literary work. In this time and age of central
economy planning and credit contraction, it is one of the bright sparks
empowering individuals to contribute to the world in meaningful ways
that not only provide them income, but self esteem.

Anyways, thank you for your time reading this, and best wishes for a
healthy, happy, and prosperous new year.

Best regards,

I have received a one line reply from coin.mx

we will be adding this in the future. Within 2 weeks.

If you are emailing coin.mx please be sure to mention that you heard they have plans to incorporate devcoin into their site and that you are looking forward to this, and grateful for their acknowledgement of the currency.

Thank you.

[ranlo]

I would like anyone who is willing to please email media@campbx.com and support@coin.mx (only once) to request that they consider adding devcoin to their exchange.

You can use a message similar to the example below. Please do not copy this, create your own message, the same message just makes it spam.

Hello,

I love your website but am wondering if you have any plans to expand
into other coins in the future?

In particular I'm interested in coins that have unique qualities such as Devcoin (DVC).

I'm a huge supporter of is Devcoin, as it's merge mined
with Bitcoin, not using any additional mining power, and it actually
sends 90% of the mining reward to recipients of Open Source software and
Creative Commons Licensed literary work. In this time and age of central
economy planning and credit contraction, it is one of the bright sparks
empowering individuals to contribute to the world in meaningful ways
that not only provide them income, but self esteem.

Anyways, thank you for your time reading this, and best wishes for a
healthy, happy, and prosperous new year.

Best regards,

I have received a one line reply from coin.mx

we will be adding this in the future. Within 2 weeks.

If you are emailing coin.mx please be sure to mention that you heard they have plans to incorporate devcoin into their site and that you are looking forward to this, and grateful for their acknowledgement of the currency.

Thank you.

Done.

[Hunterbunter]

You might notice for example that so far there are no good working exchanges, Ripple gateways etc etc etc in open source; the policy seems usually to be to release a broken sketchy version as open source but keep the real thing that actually works proprietary. (Which is kind of what the GNU Affero (sp?) license aims to try to put a stop to.)

I think to a lot of people / companies hereabouts "Open Source" is mostly just a marketing slogan, they release some broken stuff to get some marketing bonus from the use of such terms/slogans but are all about profit thus have no intention of actually enabling competition / competitors by giving out their real working robust production code.

Thanks for the interesting post.

I'm a bit unclear what Devcoin's goal is. Does it want to proliferate open source? Proliferate devcoins? Passively reward anyone who does open source? Each of those require mostly different approaches.

I'm personally interested in the idea of proliferating open source, as a tome of knowledge for the ages, but I realize that's at odds with how the real world works. I released my bounty source code under GPL, but I understand now (having just read about the differences), that I should have released it under MIT. I understand the needs of business, and I want it to prosper but I also want to increase access to education. MIT sounds like a halfway point between the two - GPL favours FOSS over business, EULA favours business over FOSS, and MIT seems to sit in the middle somewhere.

I just had a look at the bounty_now page, and there's a bounty for an exchange, where adding dvc to an exchange is acceptable for the bounty. If you have a running exchange, this is extremely easy to do. That would mean the code to run has to be open source too...I can see how that would be a problem for the exchange owners. It's likely then that the code will only really be given by someone who doesn't care for being an exchange owner.

By the way...I think that bounty is pretty low for an open-source exchange, especially if someone is making it from scratch...that's more work than all I've done for open source so far...by maybe a factor of 20. Security, hosting, wallet-nitty-gritty, backups etc. I'm actually writing software that has exchange elements for my main project, and it's a ton of work. I guess the priority is what matters, and the bounty system seems to favour things the community needs first, which is fine.

[ranlo]

Good morning all!  I woke up to an unexpected surprise of a large DVC deposit that I have no idea who its from nor what its for.  If it was an accidental transaction, the sender can PM me with the exact amount sent so that I know they are the rightful owner and I will return it.  Thanks.  It was sent to the address in my signature.

I got one, too. I suspect it's about the issue below.

..
Notabot would stop selling his devcoins, and send all but 5 million back to people at the end of December, and then send all but 5 million back at the end of the round 30 payment at the end of January. For a year, round 31 to round 42 inclusive, a third of his earnings would be sent back.

Indeed that's what it's from. Notabot decided to not hold back 5 million as I recommended, he sent all his 20 million devcoins. I then sent it in turn in proportion to the current account 31 file. The payments are currently at:
https://raw.github.com/Unthinkingbit/charity/master/payment.csv

but that file changes once in a while so it's not a permanent record. The block record is permanent, and the transactions are in the following blocks:
http://darkgamex.ch:2751/block/d9ff14adbc1f8cf78e7f4c8690aa215f2bf1fb53bbb7f04dfea13c82c0821941
http://darkgamex.ch:2751/block/6f8c79db2d47849aae2fb0839d03ea0b45a6cca9e292ac52c1b99c960536f2c3
http://darkgamex.ch:2751/block/6376ded227406452c84b4218814c53522f3a1d4b70e0f5c25f2723840509f250

The next and last payment will be at the end of this payment round, about Jan 28, 2014.

I am pretty much against the way you've handled this. I am not posting this publicly to cause problems, but to hopefully get other opinions on it as well.

Here's the issue: you paid these out according to the *current round* instead of the past ones. The problem here is that it was those in *previous rounds* that actually lost the coins. Their shares were diluted due to this problem, and now it's not those who lost that get rewarded for their losses but those who never lost anything (unless someone happened to have the same ratio in each round, which is highly unlikely, especially with the changes to max share count from Devtome and the massive number of bounties this round). Essentially what has happened is some have lost coins and others who were not affected are the ones being rewarded.

This is completely backwards from how it should be.

[markm]

I just had a look at the bounty_now page, and there's a bounty for an exchange, where adding dvc to an exchange is acceptable for the bounty. If you have a running exchange, this is extremely easy to do. That would mean the code to run has to be open source too...I can see how that would be a problem for the exchange owners. It's likely then that the code will only really be given by someone who doesn't care for being an exchange owner.

By the way...I think that bounty is pretty low for an open-source exchange, especially if someone is making it from scratch...that's more work than all I've done for open source so far...by maybe a factor of 20. Security, hosting, wallet-nitty-gritty, backups etc. I'm actually writing software that has exchange elements for my main project, and it's a ton of work. I guess the priority is what matters, and the bounty system seems to favour things the community needs first, which is fine.

Yet a former scammer, r3wt or some such handle, is even now developing a free open source exchange.

I wonder if he even knows of the bounty.

-MarkM-

[jasinlee]

Hello everyone,

The forum @ http://162.243.37.115 now bans users from viewing your topics if they are on your ignore list.

I just caught up and saw this, excellent work!

[dalamar96]

Ok, with all this in mind and being discussed, I am going to stop work on the bounty side of things on the site I was working on and just stick with trying to keep things going forward on the main page

[novacadian]

I respectfully disagree. Capitalism is not the opposite of cooperation, and you're mixing metaphors.

You seem to be making a misquote Hunterbunter. No intention of opposites were intended. It is just by definition Capitalism is competition by an large. In my mind Open Source is cooperation by an large. It is not like they are opposites. It is like saying something is blue and another thing is yellow. They are not opposite just different. It is easy to understand how one may see Capitalist Philosophy and Open Source philosophy as different enough to be opposites; yet that is not a given nor my intention to relate.

Capitalism is an economic process where the risk and reward are assumed by the few, with decisions made by everyone. Modern communism (which I think you were referring to)....

Again, there was no intention of bringing communism into this. In fact payment has been made to me for working on Open Source projects. That is taking something Open Source and adding mods for a paying client. Hopefully that will clarify that there is no connection to communism in my remarks.

Regarding code, applying capitalistic risk to the bounty system does not close the source, and if open source is cooperative as you say, how can it then be less cooperative? Capitalism vs Modern Communism is about who assumes the risk of failure.

We are in agreement that Open Source remains open source. In the present Bounty System it is the creators of the code that assume the risks. If you are suggesting that it is the issuers of the Bounty who assume the risk then we would be in disagreement.

Voting only really works if people have something to lose. If it's arbitrary voting by everyday users, for nothing but a random click, it doesn't create an accurate representation of what people actually want. Valve tried this with their Greenlight system, and have recognized what a horrible failure it was in reducing their workload, or getting better games out. If they had made people pay to vote for greenlight games, they'd have a much more realistic demand plot, because people would only vote for things they actually cared about. If the bounty system you talk about makes people contribute to the bounty as their vote, then that would work fine...but then basically you've got capitalists who are directing open source programmers...

Your idea of paying to vote is a brilliant amendment to my suggestion. Assuming that the option is open to everyone anyone from any political bent could put up their DevCoins and have their say. That is giving the direction of the open source programmers to even the programmers themselves (who are most likely to be happy capitalist in their own right).

Also, project managers are valuable, and not all programmers would make good ones.

The person or persons who would review the Bounties and scale them (as mentioned as an idea in my original post to this debate) would be project managers of sorts don`t you think?

Thanks for your input. Your pay for voting idea really fleshes out an area that seemed weak to me in my original post.

- Nova

[kalgecin]

Hey guys, I'm having trouble compiling the client on linux

Code:

make[1]: Entering directory `/home/coinflip/devcoin/src/curl'
Making all in lib
make[2]: Entering directory `/home/coinflip/devcoin/src/curl/lib'
.deps/libcurl_la-amigaos.Plo:1: *** multiple target patterns.  Stop.
make[2]: Leaving directory `/home/coinflip/devcoin/src/curl/lib'
make[1]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1
make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/coinflip/devcoin/src/curl'
make: *** [curl/lib/.libs/libcurl.a] Error 2

I have curl dev files installed from repositories, any way to bypass the one included in the src? or there are some specific magic changes there?

[emfox]

Hey guys, I'm having trouble compiling the client on linux

Code:

make[1]: Entering directory `/home/coinflip/devcoin/src/curl'
Making all in lib
make[2]: Entering directory `/home/coinflip/devcoin/src/curl/lib'
.deps/libcurl_la-amigaos.Plo:1: *** multiple target patterns.  Stop.
make[2]: Leaving directory `/home/coinflip/devcoin/src/curl/lib'
make[1]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1
make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/coinflip/devcoin/src/curl'
make: *** [curl/lib/.libs/libcurl.a] Error 2

I have curl dev files installed from repositories, any way to bypass the one included in the src? or there are some specific magic changes there?

find src/curl -name .deps -exec rm -rf "{}" \;

He put the windows build dep files in the source repo and cause this problem, above is what i did to overcome it.

[melodiem]

Awesome.
I admire every self employed freelancer who accepts cryptocoins. I want to do that myself sometime in the future... but I have to prepare a few things before I can.

Thanks George  

I think to a lot of people / companies hereabouts "Open Source" is mostly just a marketing slogan, they release some broken stuff to get some marketing bonus from the use of such terms/slogans but are all about profit thus have no intention of actually enabling competition / competitors by giving out their real working robust production code.

Many companies often jump on the most popular bandwagon, they "go green" (look at bp's logo) or "open source" or "accept bitcoin" (virgin galactic) etc..
it's like free publicity for them.

The following reads as critical, but it's not a criticism as such, its an observation from a "Newbie" who just got here and plans to settle down, raise a crypto currency family and maybe have a little block of data one day.....

Georgem and markm, (hi, I'm melodiem, are we related?)

What you say is probably true, but I think Its sad that anyone who does "go green" etc, is first examined for an evil agenda before the work they are doing or what their (misguided?) contribution might be. Sadly for anyone coming into new currencies, the first thing most people ask is "are they a scammer?" followed by "what is their agenda?" and to be honest, this is at odds with (my perception of) an open source or creative community. Rather than an "open" community welcoming new ideas and bright eyed adventurers, newbies are immediately confronted with the mouldy underbelly of a community that really has so much more to offer.

I understand the need to weed out the scammers and the need to build trust within the community but if most people coming in are automatically treated with distrust it just creates more distrust because the newbies are all following the oldies. It sucks (just quietly) to feel judged before one has opportunity to prove or say anything to defend themselves and it sucks even more that people coming into any new community must first be ready to defend themselves.

To hammer the point home, newcomers to the community are met with a trust score which is supposed to be protected at all costs, and expected to post their business into a "reputation" thread. Implying they have to build their reputation. While this is true of any business, few arenas require such a level of scrutiny before their work is even tested.

Ironically, those outside the crypto community have the same distrust of anyone from within the "community".

personally; my decision to accept Bitcoins was completely commercial. I believe I do good work and that there is an opportunity to do business there. I guess that makes me a capitalist but as my capitalist landlord requires rent...

My decision to accept Devcoins is about supporting a community. This community rewards creativity and I love the whole concept so I choose to support it with the skills and services I can offer, within my capitalist landlord controlled cage. Unfortunately, no matter how I might paint the picture...that also makes me a capitalist.

I considered offering a discount to clients paying with Devcoins (and still considering it) - but I hesitate because no matter how I approach it, I can already hear the cries of "she's doing it to make money". I wanted to do something like making a donation from any Devcoin sales back to the Devcoin community but can you imagine what flaming that might have gotten me? I am too old and bored with BS to bother defending myself so I wimped out and chose a "safer" approach. (I have moments, and I am changeable so maybe watch this space...Im already feeling braver!)

(I do realise you were talking about developers but as web designers or writers the concept of an open source community is the same)

I guess I am trying to say that not everyone is an evil genius plotting to steal your nest egg - but to expect them to be, and to judge with cynicism born of capitalism, creates a closed community not an open one.

[melodiem]

Super! I'll add your site to devcoin.org under the Spend DVC section - I'm finishing up the next round of updates now.

Thank you 

[kalgecin]

Hey guys, I'm having trouble compiling the client on linux

Code:

make[1]: Entering directory `/home/coinflip/devcoin/src/curl'
Making all in lib
make[2]: Entering directory `/home/coinflip/devcoin/src/curl/lib'
.deps/libcurl_la-amigaos.Plo:1: *** multiple target patterns.  Stop.
make[2]: Leaving directory `/home/coinflip/devcoin/src/curl/lib'
make[1]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1
make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/coinflip/devcoin/src/curl'
make: *** [curl/lib/.libs/libcurl.a] Error 2

I have curl dev files installed from repositories, any way to bypass the one included in the src? or there are some specific magic changes there?

find src/curl -name .deps -exec rm -rf "{}" \;

He put the windows build dep files in the source repo and cause this problem, above is what i did to overcome it.

Thanks that worked :-) but now i got this

Code:

g++ -c -O2 -pthread -Wall -Wextra -Wformat -Wformat-security -Wno-unused-parameter -g -D_MT -DBOOST_THREAD_USE_LIB -DBOOST_SPIRIT_THREADSAFE  -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64 -static -I/home/coinflip/devcoin/src -I/home/coinflip/devcoin/src/obj -DUSE_UPNP=1 -DUSE_IPV6=1 -I/home/coinflip/devcoin/src/leveldb/include -I/home/coinflip/devcoin/src/leveldb/helpers -DHAVE_BUILD_INFO -fno-stack-protector -fstack-protector-all -Wstack-protector -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2  -MMD -MF obj/auxpow.d -o obj/auxpow.o auxpow.cpp
auxpow.cpp:127:1: fatal error: opening dependency file obj/auxpow.d: No such file or directory