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Author Topic: [DVC]DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated  (Read 1052017 times)
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weisoq
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December 20, 2013, 05:47:12 PM
 #2721

As it's my message quoted I think it's fair that I reply. That it's you eeh isn't relevant, I wasn't making a point any particular writer's writings and I'd assume it's not my preference alone.
This month there are 3 writers earning 46% of all devtome earnings (of ~30 writers). One of them is 120 shares! If your rating method is going to bound between <1 and >1 doesn't the max round share need to be cut. Not just because of the absolute number and absolute equivalent fiat but because the larger shares also serve to undermine all others.

1. Yes, that is me. 120 shares. Does it reduce anyone else's shares when I max out that round?
They still receive the same amount, correct? So what is the *purpose* in limiting the number of shares in a round? Last month I had zero shares. It's very, very difficult to produce that much material consistently. Someone was kind enough recently to point out one project that I had neglected to fine tune. And now I'm about 8000 words in and loving it. No hard feelings, just a better project when I finally finish it.
No they don't. Payout is calculated as 180m/shares. If the denominator is higher it must reduce others' shares in dvc. But that technically is not my point. I'd like to see thousands of shares per round. Although I would personally lower the max a lot more, the change proposed now is in the context of ratings and vetting where with the bounding it means the max will be 75 per round rather than 80 now. This implies very little difference for quality writing.

Quote
2. Does that mean that shares are going to be excess every round or are 180m still distributed monthly?

If so, will we be expanding then number of bounties for visibility and refinement of Devtome and DVC in general?
Not quite sure what you mean there. 180m is generation - miners and that can't change. Also as far as I'm aware, word counts in excess of 50k will still be rolled over to the next round as they are now. There is no net loss, only a longer tie-in and greater time distribution of payouts.

Quote
3. The addition of ratings, categorization and page views has made me relook some of my contributions. I've been forced to clean up even what I thought was my most well prepared material.

So what is the point of reducing it? Just so someone like myself or Raptorak can't max it out at the high end? I don't see the purpose.
I believe that was the point of ratings, categorization and page views.
The point? 'The purpose of devcoin is to give money to open source developers for their work in as fair a manner as possible'. Although I have my own stronger views on devtome payouts and technicalities (which I've been honest about before) the adjustment is because with a bound now between <1 and >1 (rather than just 1) the max should at minimum move in line with it, resulting in max 75. In my opinion it's also to align reward with all other bounty payments where the maximum other that I know of (open transactions and a devcoin atm) is 96 shares.

Quote
Which is what markm asked in his post: Markm: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=233997.msg3782966#msg3782966. What's the purpose? He didn't say he approved of the change, just that he wasn't necessarily opposed, but his question is a good one: What's the point?
I can't speak for markm so I won't. Speaking for myself I would like devtome to appeal to ALL writers and writings, and for the greatest incentive not to be reward by word count but reward for writing.

Over the months I have been involved with Devtome there have been a number of attempts (some successful, some not) to game the word count. We can pretend it's not an issue, or that all current and prospective writers are able to mutually and constructively mix money and ethics, or we can at least try to improve methods and incentives. I believe this is a start.

In reply I would like to ask you or anyone else to explain why there shouldn't be a maximum, or why 120 is better or fairer than 75? And then how administering that would work in practice in a way that is less 'pointless' than the change?
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weisoq
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December 20, 2013, 05:53:45 PM
Last edit: December 20, 2013, 06:23:00 PM by weisoq
 #2722

I'm thinking the same thing.  A better way to spread the shares out would be to have more active writers join Devtome so compete for the shares, rather than limiting the payout.  
The payout is not limited, only the payout per round.

Edit: just to make clear, the payout has never been limited. It has always rolled over. The only difference now is that to earn the max of 75 rather than previous max of 80 per round, writing has to be of better quality with better copy, with some element of popularity incorporated.
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December 20, 2013, 05:56:15 PM
 #2723

Lots of great developments going on here!

I'm just finishing up the new Devcoin web site - it will be ready to launch today! I am really excited as I think it looks amazing and I've gotten great feedback so far. Can't wait to show everyone!
Brilliant. Will give any feedback when had a better look through. Thanks for doing this.
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December 20, 2013, 06:02:00 PM
Last edit: December 20, 2013, 06:43:25 PM by Hunterbunter
 #2724

Giftculturewriting, I sent you 23 devcoins so you can see if Shakezula's version works completely, please post or message me when you receive them. You get one share for your post:


Got them. I also sent some to the address listed on the dvc countdown, and that seemed to go through fine. So did the faucet, for that matter, so I'm not sure how it correlates to the round ending, unless 'round' is being used differently in that context.

Heya, was it 4 devcoins that you sent? If so, I got those - looks like it's working ok.

Hi all, I am happy to report that I have finished the devcoin.org site redesign:
http://devcoin.org/
Thanks to Weisoq for his wiki page and whoever created the Devcoin press release that went out a couple of weeks ago - really saved me a lot of time compiling the content.

2) Will you be updating the round payout info page manually or syncing sonehow ? Is there a cms to easily edit page content?

Good work!! I like the idea if a website being informative and usable to keep ppl coming back like getting round payout info.

It's not too difficult to make it automatically update if Hypersire is using scripts etc (not sure), but one option is that he could put a link to one of the dvc countdowns which also has the active round details - http://dvccountdown.blisteringdevelopers.com so people can look up the current blocks etc. I put a deadline on there to make it more non-technical friendly, so visitors can see how long to go before the next round ends. I'm hoping that the timer will encourage the idea it's already an ongoing moving process (in seconds rather than blocks) with people checking it out wondering if it's legit.

I agree the site looks good. It's pleasant to look at and the information is bite-sized and not overly technical.
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December 20, 2013, 06:08:05 PM
 #2725

Nice update of the site. On the specifications tab, there is mentioning of a total cap of 21 billion coins. As far as I am aware, this cap is only present as a max amount of coins to be sent, not as a cap on total coins. For an overview of what I found on specs, see: http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=the_value_of_devcoin

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December 20, 2013, 06:09:40 PM
 #2726

I'm thinking the same thing.  A better way to spread the shares out would be to have more active writers join Devtome so compete for the shares, rather than limiting the payout. 
The payout is not limited, only the payout per round.


Ok, it's fine, I don't object to this.  Interested to see the effect it has.
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December 20, 2013, 06:20:03 PM
 #2727

Quote
As it's my message quoted I think it's fair that I reply. That it's you eeh isn't relevant, I wasn't making a point any particular writer's writings and I'd assume it's not my preference alone.

No worries. It's all about the dialogue man [used with my best 60's voice]

Quote
This implies very little difference for quality writing.

OK.

Quote
Also as far as I'm aware, word counts in excess of 50k will still be rolled over to the next round as they are now. There is no net loss, only a longer tie-in and greater time distribution of payouts.

OK. I'm in favor of rolling it over. Effectively and from what is being done now by UTB, this amounts to no real change, just a longer earnings period for those that contribute more content. I'm good with that.

Quote
In reply I would like to ask you or anyone else to explain why there shouldn't be a maximum, or why 120 is better or fairer than 75? And then how administering that would work in practice in a way that is less 'pointless' than the change?

I don't think I said it was pointless, just asking what the purpose was. I'm fairly resistant to change unless there's a well-thought out reason. My gut response was that just because it had been mentioned and no one threw a tantrum, well, that doesn't really justify changing the scheme.

But from what I see in your last post, by reducing the round payouts, it more equally distributes the actual quantity of coin for even low word-count contributors while extending earnings to those who have no other life (like me) than writing.

I think the post to which I'm responding did a fairly decent job of addressing my (mis)understandings of the current earnings rounds.

I see nothing objectionable or having anything inequitable. Thanks for the feedback!
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December 20, 2013, 06:42:39 PM
 #2728

Giftculturewriting, I sent you 23 devcoins so you can see if Shakezula's version works completely, please post or message me when you receive them. You get one share for your post:


Got them. I also sent some to the address listed on the dvc countdown, and that seemed to go through fine. So did the faucet, for that matter, so I'm not sure how it correlates to the round ending, unless 'round' is being used differently in that context.

Heya, was it 4 devcoins that you sent? If so, I got those - looks like it's working ok.

Heh, yeah. It was the first faucet test I did minus the 1 dvc fee.
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December 20, 2013, 06:49:08 PM
 #2729


Quote
Also as far as I'm aware, word counts in excess of 50k will still be rolled over to the next round as they are now. There is no net loss, only a longer tie-in and greater time distribution of payouts.

OK. I'm in favor of rolling it over. Effectively and from what is being done now by UTB, this amounts to no real change, just a longer earnings period for those that contribute more content. I'm good with that.

[...]

But from what I see in your last post, by reducing the round payouts, it more equally distributes the actual quantity of coin for even low word-count contributors while extending earnings to those who have no other life (like me) than writing.

I think the post to which I'm responding did a fairly decent job of addressing my (mis)understandings of the current earnings rounds.

I see nothing objectionable or having anything inequitable. Thanks for the feedback!

Explained like this lowering the max makes sense to me. How does lowering the max from 80 to 75 instead of 80 to 30 accomplish this better?
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December 20, 2013, 06:56:12 PM
Last edit: December 21, 2013, 12:47:33 AM by weisoq
 #2730

...I don't think I said it was pointless, just asking what the purpose was. I'm fairly resistant to change unless there's a well-thought out reason. My gut response was that just because it had been mentioned and no one threw a tantrum, well, that doesn't really justify changing the scheme.

But from what I see in your last post, by reducing the round payouts, it more equally distributes the actual quantity of coin for even low word-count contributors while extending earnings to those who have no other life (like me) than writing.

I think the post to which I'm responding did a fairly decent job of addressing my (mis)understandings of the current earnings rounds.

I see nothing objectionable or having anything inequitable. Thanks for the feedback!
Thanks for your feedback. The 'pointless' was perhaps my misread inference.

Now I will get personal, to make a point. I'm going to pick on you and matt608 only because you're engaged in this discussion on this page...
The writings you guys are producing are of the standards and interest that will really build devtome. At the same time we need to grow interest in getting more active writers to join, as Matt said. But quantity is not the same as quality. So that demands a way to keep quality on board and writing without too much skew alienating newcomers or general perception of devtome. I think this and UTB's work on ratings and multipliers better addresses the future while keeping all targets on-side. It continues to reward ongoing quality, balances out internal devtome distribution, and aligns more with other devcoin projects. It shouldn't alienate anyone b/c any shit writing should be rewarded less and good writing more, but over a longer period which in turn hopefully keeps the best writers involved and active for longer.
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December 20, 2013, 07:24:52 PM
 #2731

Explained like this lowering the max makes sense to me. How does lowering the max from 80 to 75 instead of 80 to 30 accomplish this better?
Good question. I'd say it's to keep things more or less in line with current for good writing. I readily admit I'm not a writer so there has to be experimentation involved with discerning the best equilibrium, but I've made clear previoulsy that I think that natural equilibrium (where loss of good writing > addition of same) is lower. I don't know if that number is 30 and I'd guess the only way to know is through change and observation.

On your earlier ratings questions, there's a page here with more info: http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=devtome_rater It's a recentish addition so still being rolled out and developed. It's also completely open, so as an example (only fair to list one of mine): http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=rating_weisoq_30 Worth highlighting that a rating is for the author, not just the article - so constituents in my case are adjusted to meet general view as well as particulars, and more information over time should smooth out differences.

And as one of the admins for devtome I'd appreciate any constructive input on looks/language/appeal.
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December 20, 2013, 08:27:44 PM
 #2732

Explained like this lowering the max makes sense to me. How does lowering the max from 80 to 75 instead of 80 to 30 accomplish this better?
Good question. I'd say it's to keep things more or less in line with current for good writing. I readily admit I'm not a writer so there has to be experimentation involved with discerning the best equilibrium, but I've made clear previoulsy that I think that natural equilibrium (where loss of good writing > addition of same) is lower. I don't know if that number is 30 and I'd guess the only way to know is through change and observation.

On your earlier ratings questions, there's a page here with more info: http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=devtome_rater It's a recentish addition so still being rolled out and developed. It's also completely open, so as an example (only fair to list one of mine): http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=rating_weisoq_30 Worth highlighting that a rating is for the author, not just the article - so constituents in my case are adjusted to meet general view as well as particulars, and more information over time should smooth out differences.

And as one of the admins for devtome I'd appreciate any constructive input on looks/language/appeal.

Thanks for your explanations. I'd seen individual rater's pages before, but not the devtome ratings page.

Here's a draft for Devtome Earnings for the Layperson (http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=devtome_earnings_for_the_layperson). Can someone who understands the code better take a look and see if I'm representing it accurately? I tried to collate what I'd read in this thread and pull resources together into one place so new people could see them. Also, feel free to make any suggestions for what other information might be useful to put there.
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December 20, 2013, 09:29:08 PM
 #2733

Giftculturewriting, I sent you 23 devcoins so you can see if Shakezula's version works completely, please post or message me when you receive them. You get one share for your post:


Got them. I also sent some to the address listed on the dvc countdown, and that seemed to go through fine. So did the faucet, for that matter, so I'm not sure how it correlates to the round ending, unless 'round' is being used differently in that context.

Shakezula's devcoin installation is confirmed to work completely, so Shakezula is awarded 12 shares for the devcoin Windows installer bounty, plus one share ongoing for maintaining it. The windows installer bounty is finished.

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December 20, 2013, 09:38:39 PM
 #2734

Hi all, I am happy to report that I have finished the devcoin.org site redesign:

http://devcoin.org/

Thanks to Weisoq for his wiki page and whoever created the Devcoin press release that went out a couple of weeks ago - really saved me a lot of time compiling the content.

Let me know what you guys think - I will be sticking around as the new Devcoin web guy so I can certainly make edits and additions going forward.

Awesome! You get 36 shares for the website. Technically we have to wait two days (Dec 22) for objections because a web site is subjective, but people love the site so the only way the award could be rescinded is if there was a completely unexpected problem.

Hypersire, you are now a web admin, and get paid accordingly as long as you maintain the web site:
http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=devcoin#administration

In a few weeks, after you've incorporated what people generally want, please post that the web site is complete, and you'll get the final 36 share payment.

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December 20, 2013, 09:47:32 PM
 #2735

On your earlier ratings questions, there's a page here with more info: http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=devtome_rater It's a recentish addition so still being rolled out and developed. It's also completely open, so as an example (only fair to list one of mine): http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=rating_weisoq_30 Worth highlighting that a rating is for the author, not just the article - so constituents in my case are adjusted to meet general view as well as particulars, and more information over time should smooth out differences.

And as one of the admins for devtome I'd appreciate any constructive input on looks/language/appeal.

On the ratings system, a question bubbled out of my subconscious, regarding:

Quote
Bribery
Any rater caught taking bribes will be fired. If raters were paid little, then this threat would have little effect, by paying the raters a lot, there is a greater downside to taking a bribe. Also when people are paid more, they're willing to do better work.

Would it also discourage people offering bribes if, when a rater is discovered for taking bribes, all of their previously rated materials are nullified? Or is that too harsh?
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December 20, 2013, 09:52:02 PM
 #2736

Is this bounty still open?

http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=devcoin_bounty_now#devcoin_usd_chart

The dvc/usd chart.

I've coded up a webserver that gets the averages from a few different places, but I couldn't find a long term history of DVC.

The chart is here: http://dvcusdchart.blisteringdevelopers.com

It's filling up with data as I just reset it after testing, and it'll log and show data indefinitely. If people want more options etc, say what you like and I'll code it in. I'll make a few more tweaks to make it clearer what's what, but it's up and running now in any case.

EDIT: Obviously it looks a bit silly now but that's because data's just started collecting...it should fill out soon enough Smiley

Thanks for the chart! You get the 18 share award, the remaining award is 9 shares. The round 31 bounties are at:
https://raw.github.com/Unthinkingbit/charity/master/bounty_31.csv

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December 20, 2013, 10:03:15 PM
 #2737

Is this bounty still open?

http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=devcoin_bounty_now#devcoin_usd_chart

The dvc/usd chart.

I've coded up a webserver that gets the averages from a few different places, but I couldn't find a long term history of DVC.

The chart is here: http://dvcusdchart.blisteringdevelopers.com

It's filling up with data as I just reset it after testing, and it'll log and show data indefinitely. If people want more options etc, say what you like and I'll code it in. I'll make a few more tweaks to make it clearer what's what, but it's up and running now in any case.

EDIT: Obviously it looks a bit silly now but that's because data's just started collecting...it should fill out soon enough Smiley

I think a legend would be helpful (line vs bars, solid bars vs empty bars. I'm assuming that has to do with the fact that you're collating several averages). Is the 15 minute limit just because the chart just got put up? I think it'd be nice to see a longer term chart (you can get a long term chart from dvc to btc at vircurex, but not straight to USD).

Thanks for putting it together!
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December 20, 2013, 10:36:18 PM
 #2738


I think a legend would be helpful (line vs bars, solid bars vs empty bars. I'm assuming that has to do with the fact that you're collating several averages). Is the 15 minute limit just because the chart just got put up? I think it'd be nice to see a longer term chart (you can get a long term chart from dvc to btc at vircurex, but not straight to USD).

Thanks for putting it together!

Thanks for the feedback. I agree it needs a legend, and I'll get that in.

I'm not 100% sure how well you know candlestick charts, so I'm assuming you know less based on your question but forgive me if you already know this stuff. With the solid bars vs empty bars, those are normal for a candlestick chart, although google charts has it backwards to other charting software for some reason, something I'll also look into - usually a lighter or green bar represents a rise in price from opening time to close in the charting period (15min is the total time period per candle in this chart's case), and darker or red for down. The bars are supposed to represent the difference in open and closing price in the chart period (the solid bar bit) and the lines coming out of the bars are the high and low during the 15 minute period, where the price reached but didn't remain.

The 15 minute limit was what was asked for in the spec - that's not 15 minutes of data, but 15 minutes of data per candlestick. Other periods are useful definitely useful too, and once I've got my data sorted out I'll add some different periods. I don't think there's much value in putting shorter times for dvc/usd atm, but the daily and weekly charts (where each candlestick represents price movement for a whole day or week respectively), would be very useful over time to see the long term value of a devcoin.

Regarding collating averages, that just means I'm using an average market spot price, as different exchanges have different prices - eg mtgox is currenty $680/coin whereas 3 others are $630/coin. I use 4 markets for the btc/usd price, and 2 for the dvc/btc price.

The problem with history was getting it through an API. While vircurex has the data themselves, they may not necessarily release it for others to see. Pretty much everyone offers a public ticker so we can get the last trade price easily, just not all the trades from the beginning of time etc. I might try trawling one of the chart pages, but that's generally easier said than done.
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December 20, 2013, 10:39:35 PM
 #2739


I'm not 100% sure how well you know candlestick charts, so I'm assuming you know less based on your question but forgive me if you already know this stuff. With the solid bars vs empty bars, those are normal for a candlestick chart, although google charts has it backwards to other charting software for some reason, something I'll also look into - usually a lighter or green bar represents a rise in price from opening time to close in the charting period (15min is the total time period per bar in this chart's case), and darker or red for down. The bars are supposed to represent the difference in open and closing price in the chart period (the solid bar bit) and the lines coming out of the bars are the high and low during the 15 minute period, where the price reached but didn't remain.


Thanks for the explanation on the candlestick chart. I wasn't familiar with it (and as you said, a legend will help). The day and week charts would be great extras.
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December 20, 2013, 10:49:16 PM
 #2740

...Here's a draft for Devtome Earnings for the Layperson (http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=devtome_earnings_for_the_layperson). Can someone who understands the code better take a look and see if I'm representing it accurately? I tried to collate what I'd read in this thread and pull resources together into one place so new people could see them. Also, feel free to make any suggestions for what other information might be useful to put there.
I think articles including that would be useful for a FAQ section on the new http://devcoin.org/ (maybe just links to relevant devtome pages). Some others that come to mind: Why Open Source? (the point you made earlier); Help with my Wallet; Why is Devcoin generation constant?; What about music, art and film?; Can I write in languages other than english?; Are there any fees?; How can I help? beacuse they're asked a lot.

I'm not very technical compared to many here, but posts from you and wiser in particular have reminded me that many are even less so and of what I've already learned - and that a general outlook on what it's all about will differ a lot. That devcoin cann reach out to such a wider community is largely its point and so I think it would good for perspectives such as these to be incorporated as easy to access info.
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