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Author Topic: [DVC]DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated  (Read 847773 times)
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December 22, 2013, 10:09:13 PM
 #2841

Open Source is ultimately about performance, not the results that a particular performance results in.

So really what we want is not a recording of the output of a performance, such as a static image or a specific bit-sequence that represents a noise or sound, but, rather, the instructions necessary to perform that performance or produce some particular output/recording of a performance.

Open Source is all about performing, also known as executing.

So for a digitally painted painting someone painted with a paint program, what we should be wanting is the full recording of all the brush-strokes along with the code of all the brushes and so on.

Because our freedom given us by our free open source license should include the freedom to modify any of those brush-strokes or brushes, so we can see what that painting would look like if we moved our brush differently in a given moment of stroking a brush, or used a different brush or a different paint for certain of the brush-strokes, and so on.

Thus ultimately any static flat image or end-result-of-performance soundtrack is not really what we want for free open source at all, as that is simply a snapshot that does not include the source code, the instructions, the which brush or instrument to use and how to use it, that is the source code we need in order to duplicate / replicate / re-perform the thing.

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December 22, 2013, 10:21:14 PM
 #2842

Open Source is ultimately about performance, not the results that a particular performance results in.

So really what we want is not a recording of the output of a performance, such as a static image or a specific bit-sequence that represents a noise or sound, but, rather, the instructions necessary to perform that performance or produce some particular output/recording of a performance.

Open Source is all about performing, also known as executing.

So for a digitally painted painting someone painted with a paint program, what we should be wanting is the full recording of all the brush-strokes along with the code of all the brushes and so on.

Because our freedom given us by our free open source license should include the freedom to modify any of those brush-strokes or brushes, so we can see what that painting would look like if we moved our brush differently in a given moment of stroking a brush, or used a different brush or a different paint for certain of the brush-strokes, and so on.

Thus ultimately any static flat image or end-result-of-performance soundtrack is not really what we want for free open source at all, as that is simply a snapshot that does not include the source code, the instructions, the which brush or instrument to use and how to use it, that is the source code we need in order to duplicate / replicate / re-perform the thing.

-MarkM-


No problem. Especially for music created with a sequencer, it is easy to not only output a WAV file of the music (you can listen to) but also a MIDI-file that gives you information about what keys where pressed at what time and for how long. This should work easily for every MIDI-capable instrument.

I think it's important to understand that in contrast to pieces of text, music has to be listened to (meaning with your ears) to be able to review and judge its quality.
Much like you are using the appropriate sense (your eyes) to review and judge a piece of text, you should apply the appropriate sense when it comes to music.

Music has a psychological component to it that will simply not be existent in pure text or score form. Good luck reviewing that. That's why an acoustic representation of the work will let you much faster decide if the piece of music is decent or not.

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December 22, 2013, 10:26:13 PM
 #2843

I'm running a permanent DVC node at 192.241.155.73. I'd like it to be a seed node.

The people developing the shiny new daemon and client need to add it into whatever code they are using for seed nodes.

I am editting my old-devcoin-git and old-devcoin-qt-git to add a seventh name it will look up, dvcstable07.dvcnode.org, I do not know what their code does, whether it checks the dvcstable nodes on the dvcnode.org domain or not. Your IP address has been added to the dvcnodes.org DNS as dvcstable07.

Also who-ever controls the DNS for devtome.com needs to add it into their own dvcnode## hostnames in their DNS, my code so far only looks for dvcnode01 through dvcnode05 on that domain as I have seen no notification that they have added any more nodes than the five. (In fact when first I coded the code to look for five of them we did not even have have at the time, I just wanted the code to have a couple of spare lookups we could plug IP addressed into in the DNS later.)

-MarkM-


Done:

static const char *strMainNetDNSSeed[][14] = {
   {"public.txn.co.in", "dvc.public.txn.co.in"},
   {"21stcenturymoneytalk.org", "dvc-seed.21stcenturymoneytalk.org"},
   {"devtome.com", "dvcstable01.devtome.com"},
   {"dvcnode.org", "dvcstable01.dvcnode.org"},
   {"dvcnode.org", "dvcstable02.dvcnode.org"},
   {"dvcnode.org", "dvcstable03.dvcnode.org"},
   {"dvcnode.org", "dvcstable04.dvcnode.org"},
   {"dvcnode.org", "dvcstable05.dvcnode.org"},
   {"dvcnode.org", "dvcstable06.dvcnode.org"),
   {"dvcnode.org", "dvcstable07.dvcnode.org"),
   {"dvcnode.com", "node01.dvcnode.com"},
   {"dvcnode.com", "node02.dvcnode.com"},
   {"dvcnode.com", "node03.dvcnode.com"},
    {NULL, NULL}
};

I assume you have dvcstable06 if you added it to dvcstable07. I went through the list based on old devcoin code and the seed nodes on devtome and added all of them into my dnsseeds structure above. This should give us maximum connections.

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December 22, 2013, 10:28:02 PM
 #2844



I think it's important to understand that in contrast to pieces of text, music has to be listened to (meaning with your ears) to be able to review and judge its quality.



lol  Grin Bravo on that insight. :p

But I know what you mean, they'll have to be admins to listen to the tracks, which will be time consuming.  At least until there are enough listeners who can rate the tracks in an automated way like imdb.  I would really enjoy rating music, and even giving feedback being primarily a musician myself.  This whole idea of devtome moving into music is really exciting, I have a bunch of tracks I'd love to put up on this.


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December 22, 2013, 10:35:24 PM
 #2845

Open Source is ultimately about performance, not the results that a particular performance results in.


I don't know yet. I haven't made my mind up yet.

Is devcoin more about open source, or more about free content?

And when was the decision made, and by whom?

Often those two terms are used interchangeably although they represent different things.

Should devcoin strive for a balance between those two, especially when it comes to difficult (open source wise) content like music, or are we going to measure everything with the same yardstick?

When it comes to music, if you really want to be all open source about it, you would first need to create all the necessary open source music making tools, because the ones that are available at the moment are not considered at all by professional musicians. This should take a few years.

So if you were to go with the open source music making software that is available at the moment you might not attract the kind of musician you want.

Ofcourse the situation could change over time.

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December 22, 2013, 10:37:52 PM
 #2846



I think it's important to understand that in contrast to pieces of text, music has to be listened to (meaning with your ears) to be able to review and judge its quality.



lol  Grin Bravo on that insight. :p

But I know what you mean, they'll have to be admins to listen to the tracks, which will be time consuming.  At least until there are enough listeners who can rate the tracks in an automated way like imdb.  I would really enjoy rating music, and even giving feedback being primarily a musician myself.  This whole idea of devtome moving into music is really exciting, I have a bunch of tracks I'd love to put up on this.

No no no. Cool

If you think that listening to the music takes a long time, imagine how long it will take to read the score and perform the music yourself to be able to judge its merit.
(because that's what markm is proposing)

That's the point I was trying to make. Maybe it did go under.

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December 22, 2013, 10:43:41 PM
 #2847



I think it's important to understand that in contrast to pieces of text, music has to be listened to (meaning with your ears) to be able to review and judge its quality.



lol  Grin Bravo on that insight. :p

But I know what you mean, they'll have to be admins to listen to the tracks, which will be time consuming.  At least until there are enough listeners who can rate the tracks in an automated way like imdb.  I would really enjoy rating music, and even giving feedback being primarily a musician myself.  This whole idea of devtome moving into music is really exciting, I have a bunch of tracks I'd love to put up on this.

No no no. If you think that listening to the music takes a long time, imagine how long it will take to read the score and perform the music yourself to be able to judge its merit.

 Cool

That's the point I was trying to make. Maybe it did go under.

It depends if we are talking about music scores or music tracks.  For tracks it will take some time to listen, but that's potentially do-able.  For scores as you say it's impossible to judge the quality without listening to it being performed/recorded.  I'm not sure how scores can be accommodated.


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December 22, 2013, 10:46:21 PM
 #2848

@georgem: No site exists like devtome for music, so nobody has earned DVC from it.  Sad  There are not enough admins for a music site.
It's not just that. For art and music in particular, free is not the same as open-source or at least the scale of licensing matters a lot. Open-source means being willing to relinquish the 'source'. Markm wrote about this in the past, that such forms might amount to the core or stepped design process as well as the finished article. So yes that requires people and expertise, but is also requires artists being willing to release the model, layers, components - source. To be able to broadly utilise open-source people have to be ablt to tweak it, change it, adjust it without necessarily going back to the originator. You can't do that with a complied or locked finality without having all the constituent bits that make up the ends. Music and art, musicians and artists, face this challenge. One step at a time...

For writing, think about fonts.

We do not care what font is used at display time to display an article, we are free to use any font we choose to use.

Publishers though would prefer we only get a scan of a printout of an article, and font publishers would prefer that it be printed in their font so that anyone trying to "duplicate" or "re-use" the article would have to have a license to use their font.

Instruments in music and vectors or brushes or inks/paints in graphical art are akin to fonts in that way.

To get a free open source Mona Lisa we would need to discover what brushes and paints were used, how, and in what sequence, to produce that painting.

We would then be free to see what the Mona Lisa would have looked like if it were performed using different brushes, different paints, different sequences.

-MarkM-

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December 22, 2013, 10:58:15 PM
 #2849

Another thing I start wondering:

I have seen that the devcoin wallet looks different than most other coin wallets, because the creator of the devcoin wallet deliberately ommited the usage of the QT library, because it is proprietary.
Well, atleast that's my reasoning why the wallet looks the way it does, or am I just paranoid?

Now let's analyze how incredibly self sabotaging this would be if I was to create free music without using any proprietary  piece of hardware or software.  Huh

Because then I can surrender and abandon my ambition for creating free music for devcoin-network immediately.

Are my fears justified?  Embarrassed

The music I create will be free, because I decide so. But the means to create my music are certainly not free. (over the years I spend a few thousand dollars on music software alone, how much money I put in music hardware and instruments I will not tell you because you would cry.)

That is what we are trying to save other people from having to go through!

Yes, back in the dark ages before music software was free and open source, when music hardware was not free open source hardware you could print yourself using your home 3-D printer, and instruments were not free open source software or free open source instructions for free open source 3-D printers to print, you suffered horrible expense.

No one should have to go through that! This project is all about trying to ensure future generations will not have to go through that!

-MarkM-

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December 22, 2013, 10:59:45 PM
 #2850

For writing, think about fonts.

We do not care what font is used at display time to display an article, we are free to use any font we choose to use.

Oh I absolutely care. There are classical pieces that sound divine when played with a harpsichord, but sound terribly inappropriate when played with a piano.  Smiley

To get a free open source Mona Lisa we would need to discover what brushes and paints were used, how, and in what sequence, to produce that painting.

We would then be free to see what the Mona Lisa would have looked like if it were performed using different brushes, different paints, different sequences.

You assume that every creation process is quantizable into things like strokes, movements, pressure points, whatever... this sure is true for code or text.

But much like some music instruments can't be controlled and reproduced by MIDI, many artforms have myriads of such miniscule subprocesses (the artist is often not even aware of) that you would need hypothetical scifi devices to be able to "catch" what happens during the creation process. (Earlier I heard you mention star trek replicators replicating a violin. I don't think wishful thinking about future developments will help us make good decisions about devcoins present.)

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December 22, 2013, 11:02:00 PM
 #2851

if I create free music, it means I provide the sample materials (WAV files), the midi files, and descriptions about the devices (hardware, software) I used to create that specific sound.
How I distributed the sound on say 8 channels, and what panning, eq and dynamics I used in the mixing. Now THAT does make sense and can be considered open source.

But how do I describe the 10'000 hours I spend training my skills to be able to create the music in the first place?

If "open source" means a person can learn how to reproduce my work, doesn't this mean that he has to learn how to be a professional musician first?
So there is a line that can't be crossed. Open source with music means I explain every step I did, but how do I transmit an explanation for how I moved my vocal chords to create the sound?


Please watch Star Trek: the new generation enough to observe at least one episode in which someone says "computer, some musicians, please" and presto, the computer creates some professional musicians. Maybe even simulations/emulations of specific musicians.

That is where we are aiming.

We ultimately want/need to be able to say "computer, show me Sinatra singing that. Hmm no, start over but lets try having Madonna sing it. Hmm, better, okay give me Blondie singing it..." and so on.

-MarkM-

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December 22, 2013, 11:07:56 PM
 #2852


Please watch Star Trek...

I watch star trek all the time.

I like scifi, but don't let it influence my judgment when it comes to science, especially physics.

 Grin

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December 22, 2013, 11:11:21 PM
 #2853

@georgem: No site exists like devtome for music, so nobody has earned DVC from it.  Sad  There are not enough admins for a music site.
It's not just that. For art and music in particular, free is not the same as open-source or at least the scale of licensing matters a lot. Open-source means being relinquishing the 'source'. Markm wrote about this in the past, that such forms might amount to the core or stepped design process as well as the finished article. So yes that requires people and expertise, but is also requires artists being willing to release the model, layers, components - source. To be able to broadly utilise open-source people have to be ablt to tweak it, change it, adjust it without necessarily going back to the originator. You can't do that with a complied or locked finality without having all the constituent bits that make up the ends.

Yes ok, but wait a minute. If I were to be a voice artist, willing to create copyright free (creative commons) voice samples , does open source in the broader sense mean that I have to give the world access to my vocal chords, so they can tweak my voice the way they like?Huh

At what point does this argument sound completely ridiculous?

I think a devtome for musicians would have to be about free music, meaning the artist has agreed to give the music away for free (well not really, he hopes to earn some DVC) and if available free transcriptions of the notes played (if composition, etc) but open source is not really valid at all with an artform like music, because the musician himself is the source, and he is not going to be able to share his body and spirit not even if he wanted to.

So maybe we shouldn't be so fixed on this definition of open source, because some artforms will simply not work with that definition anyway.

We would need a voice, and instructions about what it should say or do.

If your voice sounds different from some other voice, we ought at least have some generic modifiable voices or categories of voice, so we can categorise your voice as being either a voice of a certain category or a voice such as one might get using a certain set of filters/modifiers as input to a voice simulator.

Basically if voice synthesisers cannot yet produce a voice such as yours they need improving, and we want the open source version of such a voice-synthesiser.

We do not want a recording of you singing the song with your closed source human voice, we want the instructions as to how a voice is to be used to sing the song, maybe with some hints as to what kind of voice might perform it best for what kind of audience. (Maybe some audiences would prefer to hear it in a gruff voice, others in a soprano voice, others in a male voice, others in a female voice, others in a unisex or robotic voice and so on and so on.)

We want source code for how to go about singing such a song.

-MarkM-

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December 22, 2013, 11:14:55 PM
 #2854

Hello. If you'd like me to promote DEV coin feel free to PM me.

This is my twitter account where I do giveaways each day: https://twitter.com/ThisWeeksCoin

The more followers I get, the better. If I see there's a interest about DEV coin I'll start promoting it ASAP.

Hey, smexy. Don't waste your time. Time's precious.
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December 22, 2013, 11:48:09 PM
 #2855

The music I create will be free, because I decide so. But the means to create my music are certainly not free. (over the years I spend a few thousand dollars on music software alone, how much money I put in music hardware and instruments I will not tell you because you would cry.)

That is what we are trying to save other people from having to go through!

Yes, back in the dark ages before music software was free and open source, when music hardware was not free open source hardware you could print yourself using your home 3-D printer, and instruments were not free open source software or free open source instructions for free open source 3-D printers to print, you suffered horrible expense.

No one should have to go through that! This project is all about trying to ensure future generations will not have to go through that!

-MarkM-


Maybe you misread me. I don't regret one penny I invested in musical hardware and instruments. My older instrument I even consider a valuable asset. I enjoy it every time I sit in front of it.
I was just saying that some people might find what I invested a really big amount of money. Amounts they normally associate with the purchase of a new car, etc...

There are old instruments, hundreds of years old. You surely heard of the stradivari violin. I for one like harpsichords, and any harpsichord fan will tell you that only the real thing has that special sound.

No reproduction whatsoever comes even near to a real harpsichord. (I know I have tested every single harpsichord simulation that came out in the last 15 years)

So please forgive me, but I have to chuckle when I hear you propose 3-D printers (that don't even exist yet aside from very basic prototypes) that will recreate whole instruments. Oh and how much will a hypothetical 3-D printer cost, that can here and now recreate a musical instrument will all it's nuances? Wait, they don't exist yet. I see...  Shocked

I try to live in the here and now (what you call "dark ages"), and won't let dreams about a hypothetical future cloud my judgment.

Sorry, but you start to sound like those guys from the zeitgeist movement. Smiley

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December 22, 2013, 11:56:13 PM
 #2856

We would need a voice, and instructions about what it should say or do.

If your voice sounds different from some other voice, we ought at least have some generic modifiable voices or categories of voice, so we can categorise your voice as being either a voice of a certain category or a voice such as one might get using a certain set of filters/modifiers as input to a voice simulator.

Basically if voice synthesisers cannot yet produce a voice such as yours they need improving, and we want the open source version of such a voice-synthesiser.

We do not want a recording of you singing the song with your closed source human voice, we want the instructions as to how a voice is to be used to sing the song, maybe with some hints as to what kind of voice might perform it best for what kind of audience. (Maybe some audiences would prefer to hear it in a gruff voice, others in a soproano voice, others in a male voice, others in a femail voice, others in a unisex or roboti voice and so on and so on.)

We want source code for how to go about singing such a song.

-MarkM-


I wonder do you want any participation of real artists in the devcoin project?

You just said you would prefer an open source voice synthesizer instead of those closed source singers.  Smiley

I installed some of the open source voice synthesizers some months ago on a linux server.... they all sound horribly unrealistic, but I'll admit that they are hilarious and nonetheless funny to play with. lol

I hope your opinion is not representative of the devcoin community?

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December 23, 2013, 12:47:08 AM
 #2857

if I create free music, it means I provide the sample materials (WAV files), the midi files, and descriptions about the devices (hardware, software) I used to create that specific sound.
How I distributed the sound on say 8 channels, and what panning, eq and dynamics I used in the mixing. Now THAT does make sense and can be considered open source.

But how do I describe the 10'000 hours I spend training my skills to be able to create the music in the first place?

If "open source" means a person can learn how to reproduce my work, doesn't this mean that he has to learn how to be a professional musician first?
So there is a line that can't be crossed. Open source with music means I explain every step I did, but how do I transmit an explanation for how I moved my vocal chords to create the sound?


Please watch Star Trek: the new generation enough to observe at least one episode in which someone says "computer, some musicians, please" and presto, the computer creates some professional musicians. Maybe even simulations/emulations of specific musicians.

That is where we are aiming.

We ultimately want/need to be able to say "computer, show me Sinatra singing that. Hmm no, start over but lets try having Madonna sing it. Hmm, better, okay give me Blondie singing it..." and so on.

-MarkM-

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December 23, 2013, 12:47:25 AM
 #2858

@georgem: No site exists like devtome for music, so nobody has earned DVC from it.  Sad  There are not enough admins for a music site.
It's not just that. For art and music in particular, free is not the same as open-source or at least the scale of licensing matters a lot. Open-source means being relinquishing the 'source'. Markm wrote about this in the past, that such forms might amount to the core or stepped design process as well as the finished article. So yes that requires people and expertise, but is also requires artists being willing to release the model, layers, components - source. To be able to broadly utilise open-source people have to be ablt to tweak it, change it, adjust it without necessarily going back to the originator. You can't do that with a complied or locked finality without having all the constituent bits that make up the ends.

Yes ok, but wait a minute. If I were to be a voice artist, willing to create copyright free (creative commons) voice samples , does open source in the broader sense mean that I have to give the world access to my vocal chords, so they can tweak my voice the way they like?Huh

At what point does this argument sound completely ridiculous?

I think a devtome for musicians would have to be about free music, meaning the artist has agreed to give the music away for free (well not really, he hopes to earn some DVC) and if available free transcriptions of the notes played (if composition, etc) but open source is not really valid at all with an artform like music, because the musician himself is the source, and he is not going to be able to share his body and spirit not even if he wanted to.

So maybe we shouldn't be so fixed on this definition of open source, because some artforms will simply not work with that definition anyway.

Most artforms that will not work that way are basically one-frame or one possible sequence of execution things, very often deliberately cheating us out of having access to the source because our current society forces people to have to come up with make-work programmes to ensure their future access to "replicator rations" both in the sense of access to food clothing and shelter and in the sense of breeding-rights, the ability to and/or permission to breed.

Basically artists keep trying to hold back the actual how it is or was done to try to force people to have to come back to them all the time. They try to conceal the actual source code - the actual how such things are done or were done. In other words they try to hold back the source code and/or the source data.

Just like in the case of text we want the actual sequence of heiroglyphs, letters, or punctuation rather than a scan (partly because a scan has extraneous information in the form of what font the copy that was scanned happened to be using), for everything in general we want the what to use in what manner and sequence.

Individual paintings are merely examples of the output of a painter.

We want painters, so we can then re-create any of the paintings that particular painting-object or that particular painting-program has painted or could paint.

The source: the that which it takes to produce the sample output and which can also produce oodles more stuff simply by tweaking it, adjusting it, having it do its routines in a different order or with different brushes and so on.

One single static image is just like a scan of an article printed in a particular font.

We should be wanting the actual "content" of the article, so we can then tweak for ourselves which font we'd like to see it in, and we can correct any spelling errors if we choose, or introduce spelling errors that we happen to like such as changing English spelling to American spelling or vice-versa.

We want the equivalent of a wiki-for-music, that is a site where anyone can edit any piece of music, any of the instruments used to play it and so on, not just some historical snapshot of what one of the many many many permutations of the components of that piece happened to look like between some edit/change and some other edit/change.

A composer site maybe and a paint site, along with models of all kinds of objects so one can tell it "okay now put in Einstein leaning over the piano... no, give him a bow tie like Doctor Who's bow tie... okay now lets have Marilyn Monroe leaning seductively over him but with her hand in the piano player's pocket... good, good, now make the piano player be Chopin... nice, nice, now lets put Mozart in the audience..." and so on....

-MarkM-

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December 23, 2013, 12:49:48 AM
 #2859


I hope your opinion is not representative of the devcoin community?


markm was one of the original developers of devcoin, I believe, so his opinion carries a lot of weight.

The means to create the music should be open to everyone is what it means to be open source.

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December 23, 2013, 12:56:40 AM
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Worldinacoin has given up on signing up new writers. I want Dinkleberg to be an admin, and he chose signing up new writers, so he will handle new writers whose name starts with P-Z.

If any new writer sent a message to Worldinacoin and didn't get a reply, please contact Dinkleberg.

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