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Author Topic: [DVC]DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated  (Read 1050373 times)
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Wekkel
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December 26, 2013, 07:01:02 PM
Last edit: December 26, 2013, 07:23:07 PM by Wekkel
 #3041

So on transaction5 which you stated you were sending 10
dvc to weisoq for 6 dvc fee.. I see 10 going to weisoq but you transferred out  2145 not 16?

If I understand the workings of the Bitcoin protocol sufficient, the payment caused my 2145 DVC in the wallet to be split into 2129 (remaining) DVC and 16 DVC outgoing, of which 10 DVC was the actual payment. The new address for the 2129 that stay in my wallet remains hidden from me.

I don't have the 1.0.1 version anymore to test the older version.

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December 26, 2013, 08:59:32 PM
Last edit: December 26, 2013, 09:12:50 PM by sidhujag
 #3042

So on transaction5 which you stated you were sending 10
dvc to weisoq for 6 dvc fee.. I see 10 going to weisoq but you transferred out  2145 not 16?

If I understand the workings of the Bitcoin protocol sufficient, the payment caused my 2145 DVC in the wallet to be split into 2129 (remaining) DVC and 16 DVC outgoing, of which 10 DVC was the actual payment. The new address for the 2129 that stay in my wallet remains hidden from me.

I don't have the 1.0.1 version anymore to test the older version.

OK i tested this by sending transactions to myself. I changed the minfee to 1 COIN since bitcoin fee is 10k satoshi (1000* bitcoin fee is 1coin) used to be 5*COIN which was too high for the coins considered "dust"... I had to change the IsDust as well since I multiplied fees by 1000x the IsDust calculation also changes by 1000x.. so now you can send as little as one mBTC

So now the IsDust catches transactions below around 300 DVC in which a standard 1.2 DVC fee applies, above that starting from 0.2 DVC fee depending on the size of the transaction.

The 1.2DVC fee under 300 DVC should act as a deterent to dust. The IsDust check ensures that it is a valid transaction and that it is Dust instead of a transaction that is too small.. before dvc payments below 1 dvc were considered "too small" and you couldn't send them regardless of fee willing to be paid.

Try it again (created new installer) and this time please report results. I think now it should be more deterministic with fees and they should be more sensible. Note that sometimes with around 200dvc I get the ("transaction is too large, you want to send with a 1.2DVC fee?") message but its intermittent based on block activity I think. Anything 300 DVC or above should just send without warning (minus 0.2+ dvc fee).

PS also added UPNP support for more than 8 connections?

I deleted my devcoin application dir to redownload the blockchain from scratch to confirm that there is no backward compatibility issue with changing the fee stuff.
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December 26, 2013, 09:45:13 PM
Last edit: December 26, 2013, 10:23:07 PM by advanced
 #3043

Hi everybody,
Let's start by saying that I'm a DCV newbie, a software developer, and DVC holder and lover. I probably absorbed some misconception and Id like you to help me get it straight. I discussed this issue with Unthinkingbit over PM and I would like to hear the community's opinion.

DVC is born as an ethical coin to provide reward to individuals and organisations who contributes in open source projects. Right? something like this guys :  http://bitcoingrant.org/ , the idea behind is spelled simple and clear:

Quote
We want to build a better reality, one in which what we do everyday and what we believe in are finally aligned. We want to eliminate the nagging opportunity cost of pursuing your goals. We want open source to become central to how we move forward instead of being a hobby or an afterthought. And we want to build this reality together, with you.

I would like to raise a concern and hear your opinion on a delicate topic.

What I think that is unfair is that the amount of the reward is basically random, or at least a gamble. Assigning a varying number of shares with a varying number of coins per share with a high-price volatility sounds really like betting.  This undermines the whole mission of the coin IMHO. Moreover, I believe that if some other cryptocurrency can fix this problem DVC will become obsolete in no time. And I don't like it.

Let me put you through an example: Say I want to build a DVC ATM machine (ndr: which I do want, and I have skills, tools, people, and time ) .  
It takes a lot of effort, work, components, people and skills. There is a  96 shares pending bounty on it.
But before digging into the project and starting taking my time out of other paid projects, buy materials and hire people I want to make some math.  
The problem is.... I can't! 96 shares could be anything between 2k$ and 25k$ by the time I'm done. Right?
It doesn't make sense. I created a certain value for the community and I would like to receive a fair value back. Not just a random number.  Don't you think so?


I would like to hear your opinion on this because it really makes the whole idea of DVC weak to the eyes of a FOSS software engineer.

I'm sure that a better solution can be found, and I'm sure that is not easy. At all.
But nothing is, until its done!

What do you guys think?

Let me know what you think please .


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December 26, 2013, 10:10:30 PM
 #3044

Hi everybody,
Let's start by saying that I'm a DCV newbie, a software developer, and DVC holder and lover. I probably absorbed some misconception and Id like you to help me get it straight. I discussed this issue with Unthinkingbit over PM and I would like to hear the community's opinion.

DVC is born as an ethical coin to provide reward to individuals and organisations who contributes in open source projects. Right? something like this guys :  http://bitcoingrant.org/ , the idea behind is spelled simple and clear:

Quote
We want to build a better reality, one in which what we do everyday and what we believe in are finally aligned. We want to eliminate the nagging opportunity cost of pursuing your goals. We want open source to become central to how we move forward instead of being a hobby or an afterthought. And we want to build this reality together, with you.

I would like to raise a concern and hear your opinion on a delicate topic.

What I think that is unfair is that the amount of the reward is basically random, or at least a gamble. Assigning a varying number of shares with a varying number of coins per share with a high-price volatility sounds really like betting.  This undermines the whole mission of the coin IMHO. Moreover, I believe that if some other cryptocurrency can fix this problem DVC will become obsolete in no time. And I don't like it.

Let me put you through an example: Say I want to build a DVC ATM machine (ndr: which I do want, and I have skills, tools, people, and time ) .  
It takes a lot of effort, work, components, people and skills. There is a  96 shares pending bounty on it.
But before digging into the project and starting taking my time out of other paid projects, buy materials and hire people I want to make some math.  
The problem is.... I can't! 96 shares could be anything between 2k$ and 25k$ by the time I'm done. Right?
It doesn't make sense. I created a certain value for the community and I would like to receive a fair value back. Not just a random number.  Don't you think so?


I would like to hear your opinion on this because it really makes the whole idea of DVC weak to the eyes of a FOSS software engineer.

I'm sure that a better solution can be found, and I'm sure that is not easy. At all.
But nothing is, until its done!

What do you guys think?


Let me know what you think please .

An open source software developer.

isn't what you describe a fundamental problem with all cryptocoins, and not just devcoin?

You ask for total predictable reliable price stability?

Isn't that something only a centrally planned economy can provide?

But we sure don't want that, do we.


I have no crystal ball, but I do assume that when...

...more people use a coin worldwide with...
...more (and bigger) exchanges...
...and don't immediately convert their coins into fiat money all the time...

...we WILL have a much more stable price than we have now.

Only future will tell, but I like the fact how far cryptocoins have already gone, with the participation of something like 0.1 % of world population.

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December 26, 2013, 10:21:45 PM
 #3045

i've been around for long enough to experience volatility in all its forms.

I'm totally ok with it now. I do not want total predictable reliable price stability.

I want to get a fair amount of value for open source projects funded.
The coin says that '90% of miners profits' are given away to fund those projects, right?

Maybe you can try to guarantee a minimum payout expressed in a more stable currency and then offer the payout in DVC. That would require store DVC in large quantities that could become a problem.  But it is still feasible.

When and if the price stabilize then you can offer random payouts, but now... it doesn't make much sense.  Not only the price of 1DVC is volatile, but even the number of coins per shares :\

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December 26, 2013, 10:36:17 PM
 #3046

I want to get a fair amount of value for open source projects funded.
The coin says that '90% of miners profits' are given away to fund those projects, right?

Maybe you can try to guarantee a minimum payout expressed in a more stable currency and then offer the payout in DVC. That would require store DVC in large quantities that could become a problem.  But it is still feasible.

When and if the price stabilize then you can offer random payouts, but now... it doesn't make much sense.  Not only the price of 1DVC is volatile, but even the number of coins per shares :\


If you want money for your projects, someone else must first be willing to give that money to devcoin.

No one can create money out of thin air here. We are not a government, nor a central planned money issueing organization.

Therefore the value and acceptange of a Devcoin is completely derived by the worldwide community of developers, marketers and most of all supporters who invest by buying devcoins on one of the exchanges and therefore kinda submiting a vote in favour of open source.

The sooner you understand that the less you will be confused about this "missing price stability".  Roll Eyes

The good thing is YOU can already influence devcoin in a good way, buy buying devcoin, creating for devcoin, advertize the idea of devcoin, etc...
The amount of good influence you can potentially bring to devcoin is only limited by yourself.

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December 26, 2013, 10:39:53 PM
 #3047

i've been around for long enough to experience volatility in all its forms.

I'm totally ok with it now. I do not want total predictable reliable price stability.

I want to get a fair amount of value for open source projects funded.
The coin says that '90% of miners profits' are given away to fund those projects, right?

Maybe you can try to guarantee a minimum payout expressed in a more stable currency and then offer the payout in DVC. That would require store DVC in large quantities that could become a problem.  But it is still feasible.

When and if the price stabilize then you can offer random payouts, but now... it doesn't make much sense.  Not only the price of 1DVC is volatile, but even the number of coins per shares :\


I agree, the only way that someone is going to make a very expensive Devcoin ATM is if the business model of making the ATM is feasible. The 96 share bounty will simply be a bonus or a thank-you for a job well done.

My guess is there will be some company out there who makes an ATM that can accept a wide variety of crypto and Devcoin will simply be one of them.

A simple idea would be having an account linked to your crypto ATM card and you simply withdrawal your crypto as needed (in the form of fiat) at various ATMs around the country. Paypal has something similar with a card and withdrawals come from your Paypal balance or bank account.

~2 cents~


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December 26, 2013, 10:41:28 PM
 #3048

What do you guys think?

Let me know what you think please .
Don't think it's at all delicate, questions like that should be at the core of general crypto discussion.

I think this is why much of devcoin's project progression is based on market cap, rather than just pipe-dreaming. The issue, and I'd assume the reason there hasn't been a simple 'fix, is because payment has to in some way be relative to currency value, i.e. the market - what people are willing to buy and sell for.

For example, let's say the 'share' aspect was eliminated - a project was an absolute dvc amount. As well as then creating further dynamics between projects, it would just leave another variable as a function of a more volatile price, because some of the volatility (unknown) that's currently embedded in a share would have to be demonstrated in the price (i.e. if I know I'm getting 1m dvc this month, but not next, my price interest this month is going to be massively dfifferent to next month - now multiply that across everybody...)

Then instead, let's say every project was actually costed in dvc to fiat. That raises at least 2 problems. The first is that at convergence of the project end (or start) there has to be an equivalent convergence of multiple other costed projects to make all possible - that would need constant dynamic adjustment for factors including unknown ones that could later impact on already existing guarantees, voiding them. The second is that even if at a snapshot in time every project and forecast payment was payable at that moment, realisation of those values requires conversion into fiat. Which therefore requires a static or pegged price or market and a limitless orderbook. I can't see how cryptos can be pegged to fiat short of a government doing it and 'making it so' with the same presses that determine their fiat.

So that's not doable with crytos. It's not generally even achievable in the big controlled world of central banks and fiat. I can't ask my boss that instead of paying x per year they pay a dynamic 0.x % of that nice house on the corner of the street. I can't even get a guarantee that instead of x per year they pay a rate indexed to what everybody else doing my job gets. i.e. it's a market. If I'm lucky I might get forwarding indexing on some broad inflation measure, but not the measure of my choice and definitely not a measure that even assures me of constancy.

It's about dynamics of price more than about dynamics of the concept. I think it would be quite possible in theory for devcoin to allocate either absolute % or absolute sums to varying projects, but that would get you no closer to having assurance of absolute return in your currency of choice than the current setup.

I'd be interested to hear your and other ideas on it though.
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December 26, 2013, 10:43:13 PM
 #3049

i've been around for long enough to experience volatility in all its forms.

I'm totally ok with it now. I do not want total predictable reliable price stability.

I want to get a fair amount of value for open source projects funded.
The coin says that '90% of miners profits' are given away to fund those projects, right?

Maybe you can try to guarantee a minimum payout expressed in a more stable currency and then offer the payout in DVC. That would require store DVC in large quantities that could become a problem.  But it is still feasible.

When and if the price stabilize then you can offer random payouts, but now... it doesn't make much sense.  Not only the price of 1DVC is volatile, but even the number of coins per shares :\


I agree, the only way that someone is going to make a very expensive Devcoin ATM is if the business model of making the ATM is feasible. The 96 share bounty will simply be a bonus or a thank-you for a job well done.

My guess is there will be some company out there who makes an ATM at can accept a wide variety of crypto and Devcoin will simply be one of them.

~2 cents~



Something like a coinpayments with a logo saying wr accept coinpayments! Meaning any alts like dvc can be used to fund your account.. We should talk to coinpayments and push for people to accept coinpayments not just dvc.. and work with coinpayments to get more marketing exposure on their website so that people will start to prefer dvc as the defacto payment on their system..

That way if atm accepted coin payments it wiuld be a win win for dvc.
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December 26, 2013, 10:47:21 PM
 #3050

i've been around for long enough to experience volatility in all its forms.

I'm totally ok with it now. I do not want total predictable reliable price stability.

I want to get a fair amount of value for open source projects funded.
The coin says that '90% of miners profits' are given away to fund those projects, right?

Maybe you can try to guarantee a minimum payout expressed in a more stable currency and then offer the payout in DVC. That would require store DVC in large quantities that could become a problem.  But it is still feasible.

When and if the price stabilize then you can offer random payouts, but now... it doesn't make much sense.  Not only the price of 1DVC is volatile, but even the number of coins per shares :\


I agree, the only way that someone is going to make a very expensive Devcoin ATM is if the business model of making the ATM is feasible. The 96 share bounty will simply be a bonus or a thank-you for a job well done.

My guess is there will be some company out there who makes an ATM at can accept a wide variety of crypto and Devcoin will simply be one of them.

~2 cents~



Something like a coinpayments with a logo saying wr accept coinpayments! Meaning any alts like dvc can be used to fund your account.. We should talk to coinpayments and push for people to accept coinpayments not just dvc.. and work with coinpayments to get more marketing exposure on their website so that people will start to prefer dvc as the defacto payment on their system..

That way if atm accepted coin payments it wiuld be a win win for dvc.

We have to be careful with this. We might end up with an ATM that has 6500 different logos of currency/crypto/card types that are accepted. One could spend 15 minutes trying to find the right logo to see if they can use the machine or not.  Smiley


Yeah, it will probably be a company like Coinpayments and some specilized ATM maker that get together and squirt out some type of  hybrid ATM that can accept cryptos. Making it might be the easy part. The hard part will be trying to convince store owners to put this machine somewhere.

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weisoq
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December 26, 2013, 10:49:42 PM
 #3051

I agree, the only way that someone is going to make a very expensive Devcoin ATM is if the business model of making the ATM is feasible. The 96 share bounty will simply be a bonus or a thank-you for a job well done.

My guess is there will be some company out there who makes an ATM at can accept a wide variety of crypto and Devcoin will simply be one of them.

~2 cents~
Exactly, the example of a devcoin atm will occur when either there's either money in it to do so (and I reckon if one was made and installed in  few major town centres the dvc awareness and price rise would more than cover them, but it's a risk), or a natural market exists to demand them (at which point the cost would already be reasonable because there's competiton to make one as dvc by that point would have to have attained a stability/value that made that demand exist). As to which comes first, demand or supply - that's a risk/return balance - and today's tipping point is why there's not yet a devcoin atm.
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December 26, 2013, 10:52:01 PM
 #3052

Thanks for the heads up. I will be sure to email before I place any orders with them.
You're on the devtome lists now: http://d.evco.in/charity/devtome_31.csv

On my entry in the devtome lists, it says I have 0 popularity and my rating for the round is 1, is that correct?  Apparently my multiplier is 0, so I get nothing.

Also, on the topic of the ATM: Would an ATM where you exchange bitcoins for devcoins be eligible?  It would be easier so the bounty could be lowered.  e.g. you get a cheap e reader or use a rasp pi, show a user qr code to send bitcoins, once tx has enough confirms we send DVC to their address?
weisoq
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December 26, 2013, 10:58:41 PM
 #3053

On my entry in the devtome lists, it says I have 0 popularity and my rating for the round is 1, is that correct?  Apparently my multiplier is 0, so I get nothing.
It says the same for me, because we haven't submitted anything this round to apply any multiplier to. And I'd guess the rest of the stats can't be updated until the round ends.
EDIT: think it was about 800 lines
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December 26, 2013, 11:00:13 PM
 #3054

On my entry in the devtome lists, it says I have 0 popularity and my rating for the round is 1, is that correct?  Apparently my multiplier is 0, so I get nothing.
It says the same for me, because we haven't submitted anything this round to apply any multiplier to. And I'd guess the rest of the stats can't be updated until the round ends.

Ok, thanks!

Do you know what the value of a share last round was? (round 30)

EDIT: I found it on devtome stats
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December 26, 2013, 11:07:45 PM
 #3055

Updated to 1.0.6 (v0.8.5.1-g25a7d46-beta). Still got the 6 DVC payment fee message.
Therefore, I threw away the block chain files (except wallet.dat of course) and synched again. Still the same problem.

Then I thought of installing the 32 bit wallet instead of the 64 bit I installed each time. Voila, I can send 10 DVC with a 0.20 DVC fee.
A 1 DVC payment also takes only 0.2 DVC fee instead of 1.2 DVC fee.

I will remain with the 32 bit version for now.

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December 26, 2013, 11:19:09 PM
 #3056

Updated to 1.0.6 (v0.8.5.1-g25a7d46-beta). Still got the 6 DVC payment fee message.
Therefore, I threw away the block chain files (except wallet.dat of course) and synched again. Still the same problem.

Then I thought of installing the 32 bit wallet instead of the 64 bit I installed each time. Voila, I can send 10 DVC with a 0.20 DVC fee.
A 1 DVC payment also takes only 0.2 DVC fee instead of 1.2 DVC fee.

I will remain with the 32 bit version for now.

This mirrors my results as well. The 32 bit version is a bit quicker on my Windows PC too.
weisoq
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December 26, 2013, 11:22:39 PM
 #3057

Also, on the topic of the ATM: Would an ATM where you exchange bitcoins for devcoins be eligible?  It would be easier so the bounty could be lowered.  e.g. you get a cheap e reader or use a rasp pi, show a user qr code to send bitcoins, once tx has enough confirms we send DVC to their address?
Wouldn't that basically just encompass 'the mobile internet' in a box, although making devcoin mobile would be a good step.
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December 26, 2013, 11:24:04 PM
 #3058

Updated to 1.0.6 (v0.8.5.1-g25a7d46-beta). Still got the 6 DVC payment fee message.
Therefore, I threw away the block chain files (except wallet.dat of course) and synched again. Still the same problem.

Then I thought of installing the 32 bit wallet instead of the 64 bit I installed each time. Voila, I can send 10 DVC with a 0.20 DVC fee.
A 1 DVC payment also takes only 0.2 DVC fee instead of 1.2 DVC fee.

I will remain with the 32 bit version for now.

This mirrors my results as well. The 32 bit version is a bit quicker on my Windows PC too.

Omg lol
 My bad but I did say that all other files were placeholders.. there is no w64 version until someone builds it.

So you have been installing older version probably with the allowfree commented out.. Anyway please test this version and tell me if you like the fee structure and the way it punishes dust payments (under 400dvc) aswell as not allowing payments under 1mDVC at all.
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December 26, 2013, 11:27:06 PM
 #3059

i've been around for long enough to experience volatility in all its forms.

I'm totally ok with it now. I do not want total predictable reliable price stability.

I want to get a fair amount of value for open source projects funded.
The coin says that '90% of miners profits' are given away to fund those projects, right?

Maybe you can try to guarantee a minimum payout expressed in a more stable currency and then offer the payout in DVC. That would require store DVC in large quantities that could become a problem.  But it is still feasible.

When and if the price stabilize then you can offer random payouts, but now... it doesn't make much sense.  Not only the price of 1DVC is volatile, but even the number of coins per shares :\


I agree, the only way that someone is going to make a very expensive Devcoin ATM is if the business model of making the ATM is feasible. The 96 share bounty will simply be a bonus or a thank-you for a job well done.

My guess is there will be some company out there who makes an ATM at can accept a wide variety of crypto and Devcoin will simply be one of them.

~2 cents~



Something like a coinpayments with a logo saying wr accept coinpayments! Meaning any alts like dvc can be used to fund your account.. We should talk to coinpayments and push for people to accept coinpayments not just dvc.. and work with coinpayments to get more marketing exposure on their website so that people will start to prefer dvc as the defacto payment on their system..

That way if atm accepted coin payments it wiuld be a win win for dvc.

We have to be careful with this. We might end up with an ATM that has 6500 different logos of currency/crypto/card types that are accepted. One could spend 15 minutes trying to find the right logo to see if they can use the machine or not.  Smiley


Yeah, it will probably be a company like Coinpayments and some specilized ATM maker that get together and squirt out some type of  hybrid ATM that can accept cryptos. Making it might be the easy part. The hard part will be trying to convince store owners to put this machine somewhere.

Leverage the share system put them on the receiver list.. we can pay for extra exposure.. give shares to store owners for x rounds to give incentive to use ones that support devcoin.
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December 26, 2013, 11:33:04 PM
 #3060

It does not punish a payment of 1 DVC (payment fee is 0.2 DVC).

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